Does religion create better or worse countries?

I think that the prevalence of any sort of dogma is bad for society, whether it be codified as part of a 'religion' or not.

Open societies which practice and encourage freedom of thought are societies which progress with time, build upon their strengths, and gradually do away with their contradictions and injustices. Closed societies which cling to dogma, superstition, and parochialism, on the other hand, are societies which invariably putrefy in their own stagnation.
 
Okay well not sure if this is true or not, but Weber, a sociologist, wrote extensively about a theory he had that protestant countries do better than others because of a stronger work ethic due to the inherent values of the religion. Modern capitalism is the product of calvinist ethics and the encouragement of literacy.
Not sure if its actually true or not, but its a interesting idea imo.
 
I said "belief system", ie. a series of assumptions which shapes the behaviour and mores of a person or society. A religion is that, but it's also a codified, ritualized structure in a way that atheism is not.

My point is that all societies are built upon a series of assumptions and so singling one particular type of belief out from others is disingenuous; Catholic beliefs paired with political control of a society led to the Inquisition in the same way that Soviet and Maoist beliefs (which are inherently atheistic) paired with political control of a society lead to gulags, slavery, starvation and mass executions.

Atheism is as much a belief system as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Atheists do not "believe" or "Take for granted"; we assess by what can be verified as fact. You can't say this is unreasonable, as the same logic that would lead us to take on faith your "belief" should rightfully also lead both of us to accept "belief" in Zeus, Bigfoot and the Tooth Fairy. Though even then, there's far more support for the last two than the former.

"Nah, that sounds like horseshit" is a definitive statement. I'm not ribbing atheism here, especially considering I am an atheist. Like mentioned, atheistic beliefs were codified into law in several 20th century countries and used to control.

I'm talking specifically about fedora tipping atheism here, because there are absolutely tons of atheists who would refuse to accept evidence of God if it did appear. But just like there's plenty of sure in their ways but harmless Christians, it's the same for atheists. It's simply that the first step is completely believing in a stance, which for atheists is "God is completely made up and not real".

Well, actually according to your Bible's claim that even the Devil can appear as a being of light if he was there he's making it purposefully difficult to find reason to believe in him.

As for "That sounds like horse shit", would you describe yourself as Afairy? Aunicorn? AKraken? Would you not think it ridiculous if I inisted that the girls from some anime were real and must be respected? Why must you insist on forcing a negative into an affirmative statement? How many people are obligated to identify as a non stamp collector?

The claim that people don't believe in your deity because there is no proof is laughable. There have been many people who've done the exact opposite when proof was staring them directly in the face; less we forget the Catholic Church thanks to the Geocentric model of the universe it affirmed was absolute truth required it to condemn "belief" and ban books that explained the existence of the Planets that would become known as Uranus and Neptune as heresy; despite it being very easy to prove at that stage. Why even today we've got Theists who insist that the world is flat!

I don't mean to sound condescending, but I know it inevitably will be taken as such. I appreciate there are people in this world who for one reason or another; be it the indescribable suffering they live amongst, an inability to accept death or just finding being told what to do comforting but not all of us are this unfortunate or weak. You don't offend people like me by talking about Euphoria, you just sound pathetic. In no other context are we expected to justify the non existence of mermaids, the monster that lives under your bed or the little green men from Andromeda; you sound like an idiot.

As for the claim that Christians are harmless; considering their common stances on things such as women's rights, contraception, abortion and other issues that their imaginary friends insists must be installed as law I think they're anything but harmless. Anyone who believes they are being guided by the hand and enforcing the will of Napoleon Bonaparte would risk being locked up in an asylum, but if you do it in the nape of a first century carpenter for some reason we are obligated to accept this as reasonable and worthy of respect.
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Now as for the OP. I personally do think religion, especially Abrahamic and Indian religions, is harbored and maintained through desperation and hope in a better tomorrow for those who cannot or will not change the world now. However, I would be very hesitant to use these statistics as the sole reason behind them. The Czech Republic is a bit of an anomaly; they are a group that for most of history has been directly persecuted by Catholics and Protestants alike; and seems to have come to the general perspective that religion is a bad thing altogether. Though religious persecution has been universal at some point, it was more normally the case that one religion persecuted another religion rather than multiple religions ganging up upon one group the way the Christians did to the Czechs.

There is a bit of the "Which came first, the chicken or the egg" about this situation in poor countries. Does poverty and ignorance beget religion, or does religion beget poverty and ignorance? I think there's more of a vicious cycle, one causes the other over and over and it continues to amplify until the balance is disturbed (conditions improve or a better religion, either materially or promise wise, moves in). Africans were poor before the Christian Missionaries moved in, but accepting the colonial faith over their own at the time did provide social advancement or material that the others did not which broke the maintainence of native religions.

TL;DR: I think Religion can be a cause of poverty, such as Islam removing 50% of the population from productivity outright, but during the initial stages it is a symptom. In the decades prior to Islam Arabia had undergone changes and threats to their native way of life, threatened by the encroachment of the wealthy Christian and Persian powers both heavily influenced by a foreign and exotic religion entirely different from their native polytheism. They took aspects of both, and created a power of their own. Islam was born in a society under threat from outsiders, and then until it burst outwards in the form of the Islamic conquest was the symptom rather than a cause it would later become.

I think the internet and seeing just how better the "evil" western world is will slowly become the death of religion as we know it as a system of dogmatic belief and supernatural power on a wider scale; when they realize those their deities despise live far more fufilled and productive lives despite all the prayers the long faithful make. It might not end up on this grand scale, but we can't say the logic doesn't hold; bar migrants into first world nations traditional forms of piety are dying in the regions with the most technology access and education.

Okay well not sure if this is true or not, but Weber, a sociologist, wrote extensively about a theory he had that protestant countries do better than others because of a stronger work ethic due to the inherent values of the religion. Modern capitalism is the product of calvinist ethics and the encouragement of literacy.
Not sure if its actually true or not, but its a interesting idea imo.

This could just be a case of Protestantism encouraging literacy and criticism of some forms of authority (i.e: the Catholic priesthood) and self reflection; which in turn granted access to other sources of information and the ability to interpret and consider them.
 
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Christianity specifically creates better countries.
 
I said in my post I was an atheist, you don't have to use the word "your" as if you're insulting me personally because you're not. If you have to say, "I don't mean to be condescending" and then go on a diatribe against something, you're being condescending.

I appreciate there are people in this world who for one reason or another; be it the indescribable suffering they live amongst, an inability to accept death or just finding being told what to do comforting but not all of us are this unfortunate or weak. You don't offend people like me by talking about Euphoria, you just sound pathetic. In no other context are we expected to justify the non existance of mermaids, the monster that lives under your bed or the little green men from Andromeda; you sound like an idiot.
Did you remember your fedora? This is the /r/atheism level tipping.
 
Atheists do not "believe" or "Take for granted"; we assess by what can be verified as fact. You can't say this is unreasonable, as the same logic that would lead us to take on faith your "belief" should rightfully also lead both of us to accept "belief" in Zeus, Bigfoot and the Tooth Fairy. Though even then, there's far more support for the last two than the former.
Just because something is falsifiable, doesn't mean a lack of evidence to the contrary implies truth.
Falsifiability means that it can be disproven. Once it is disproven, you can take that as incontrovertible fact. Until it's been disproven, it's on the same epistemological grounds as any non-falsifiable belief (like religion).


As for the claim that Christians are harmless; considering their common stances on things such as womens rights, contraception, abortion and other issues that their imaginary freinds insists must be installed as law I think they're anything but harmless. Anyone who believes they are being guided by the hand and enforcing the will of Napoleon Bonaparte would risk being locked up in an asylum, but if you do it in the nape of a first century carpenter for some reason we are obligated to accept this as reasonable and worthy of respect.
What's wrong with making moral claims on women's rights? The "you're not a woman" argument falls apart because you can find any obscure criteria that applies to one group but not another, meaning you inevitably hit moral nihilism (and if you think there's nothing wrong with that, give me your address so I can come murder you and steal your money because it shouldn't matter to you). If you claim it's because "they're not hurting anyone," that also doesn't fit with the empirical reality that women's rights lead to a decrease in social cohesion (more inter-gender conflict), breakdown of the traditional family unit, and arguable mass genocide (the issue of whether a fetus is a human is irrelevant. Assume we can't know; being morally conservative and assuming it is, is a superior stance to potentially killing someone).
Really this boils down to "I disagree with these people and so their proscriptive mores hurt my fee-fees," because a breakdown in these moral laws is empirically, to use your own words, "anything but harmless."

As for anyone comparing mass statistics on countries:
1) being poor isn't necessarily bad
2) you have to look at how the murder/crime rate breaks down: is it the religious, or non-religious people, who commit crimes? You can't assume that subgroupings within a country are the same demographic as the country itself.
 
Just because something is falsifiable, doesn't mean a lack of evidence to the contrary implies truth.
Falsifiability means that it can be disproven. Once it is disproven, you can take that as incontrovertible fact. Until it's been disproven, it's on the same epistemological grounds as any non-falsifiable belief (like religion).

On this grounds then we should continue to offer blood sacrifices to ensure that the sun rises each morning; after all we've never proven that the sun will rise if we don't. Sure we've missed a few years but maybe we just banked enough points back when the Aztec's were still around. We've got no proof that the sun will rise if we don't sacrifice people, we should continue to sacrifice a few just in case.

So literal millions of people can continue to be frightened with the prospect of them and everyone they love being roasted by a wrathful deity.

So that millions of people can give up their money and lives to serve a God that isn't even there.

So that homosexuals, divorcees and single mothers can continue to be persecuted just on the off chance the invisible man actually is watching.

Can you not see the problem with this, living out a faith until we can disprove a negative? Pascal's wager wasn't very good at the time, and your version of it isn't any better.


What's wrong with making moral claims on women's rights? The "you're not a woman" argument falls apart because you can find any obscure criteria that applies to one group but not another, meaning you inevitably hit moral nihilism (and if you think there's nothing wrong with that, give me your address so I can come murder you and steal your money because it shouldn't matter to you). If you claim it's because "they're not hurting anyone," that also doesn't fit with the empirical reality that women's rights lead to a decrease in social cohesion (more inter-gender conflict), breakdown of the traditional family unit, and arguable mass genocide (the issue of whether a fetus is a human is irrelevant. Assume we can't know; being morally conservative and assuming it is, is a superior stance to potentially killing someone).
Really this boils down to "I disagree with these people and so their proscriptive mores hurt my fee-fees," because a breakdown in these moral laws is empirically, to use your own words, "anything but harmless."

Now, let's break this down. I'm not affirming my own agreement with "womens rights"; this is such a vague an empty term these days. I would describe myself as supportive of second wave feminism, but opposed to third and fourth. But that aside.

Let's look at how one could argue about womens rights, if they're good or bad. With someone like myself who demands facts, if you can bring me genuine proofm studies and statistics to demonstrate that say the right for a woman to work and be paid the same as a man was destructive and harmful I would be able to change my stance and support yours. I don't think it's likely there is this evidence but I welcome you to try, being proven wrong is a chance to learn and a step of advancement for everyone involved.

Now if you're having this same conversation with a Theist; no matter what evidence you bring to the table if it contradicts a basic tenant of faith (say with flat earthers), they are obligated to dismiss it and oppose the truth.

There is perfectly valid reasons to think people who base their political stances not on reason or evidence, but flights of fancy, are dangerous. As much as you might dislike certain secular groups there is the potential to reason and discuss over time. There is no such potential with religious groups; it's either a constant fight (see abortion, I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing, just making the point) or waiting and hoping for them to die out. Morals don't actually come into this at all, it's all about the dogma of the faith at the time. See the flip flopping with the Mormons over the morality of black worshippers and polygamy for a prime example of this.

It's possible to reason over facts, it's not possible to reason over fairy tales with zealots who refuse to even entertain the notion that their divine truths may not actually be true.


As for anyone comparing mass statistics on countries:
1) being poor isn't necessarily bad
2) you have to look at how the murder/crime rate breaks down: is it the religious, or non-religious people, who commit crimes? You can't assume that subgroupings within a country are the same demographic as the country itself.

1) Poor people are often a source of crime, poor people who are desperate enough steal to preserve their families. Just one example.
2)
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Make of that what you will.
 
While simply throwing religion at societal problems isn't some sort of instant fix, taking it away sure as hell doesn't help either, considering that every officially atheistic state in the history of the world has sucked total and complete ass.
 
LOL I CANT PRUV JESUS SO I CALL U NIGG

HUR HUR SO CLEVR

Since we're on this level now clearly.
How am I supposed to argue with you seriously when you couldn't even read a few sentences and called me a Christian as a result?
 
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I'm not dodging anything. You are taking this way too seriously, and you're typing out autistic screeds to own the Christfags.

I'm actually more bothered by the Muslims, though I do think all supernatural belief is dangerous. If you talk good smack you shouldn't be surprised to get a response.

Especially when the post also answers the OP and points raised below.
 
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I'm actually more bothered by the Muslims, though I do think all supernatural belief is dangerous. If you talk good smack you shouldn't be surprised to get a response.

Especially when the post also answers the OP and points raised below.
I'm really pointing out that my post in response to Sofonda was talking about atheism being a verifiable "position" in relation to Christianity because of the existence of fedora tippers, and you come in with the biggest fedora tipping post to try to refute my claim, all while seemingly ignoring the part of the post where I explicitly stated that I am an atheist to dunk on me and Christfags in general.

Name me one problem the west faces that cannot be fixed with an established islamic leadership system.
Islam is considered the problem in tons of places, why would you solve a problem with that same exact problem?
 
I think belief can be a positive force on peoples lives, and depending on the religion it can even be unifying. When you start implementing belief on a larger scale, like integrating it into government or politics, things can and do go wrong fast. Read "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett. It's got an interesting take on what religion does when people start using belief as an excuse rather than an ideal.
 
I'm really pointing out that my post in response to Sofonda was talking about atheism being a verifiable "position" in relation to Christianity because of the existence of fedora tippers, and you come in with the biggest fedora tipping post to try to refute my claim, all while seemingly ignoring the part of the post where I explicitly stated that I am an atheist.

Atheism is the lack of a position. Theists do try to put Atheists into a position within their worldview but this is always to the detriment of us. Rather than accept the idea that yes, people can and do live well without their divine sugardaddy of choice, it's far less jarring for them to lump us in a specific box for heretics rather than us just not being in the race at all.

I welcome the label of Fedora if my title to the left wasn't a clue, there's no room for moderation or being gentle in this matter. There's no reason to show any respect to a group who thinks the rest of the world quite justly deserves to burn. The very least a theist deserves is mockery and scorn, because their books explain in quite vivid detail what their best people would like to do to the rest of us given half a chance.
 
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