Disaster Dozens killed as passenger plane crashes in Kazakhstan - No it wasn't a Boeing.

BBC LINK // ARCHIVE


Dozens of people have died after a passenger plane crashed with 67 people on board in Kazakhstan, local officials say.

Authorities in Azerbaijan, where the flight originated, say there were at least 30 survivors.

Azerbaijan Airlines flight J2-8243 caught fire as it attempted to make an emergency landing near the Kazakh city of Aktau.

The plane was en route to Grozny in Russia but it was diverted due to fog, the airline told the BBC.

Video verified by Reuters news agency shows the plane heading towards the ground at high speed, with its landing gear down.

Seconds after it seems to attempt to land, a huge fireball erupts.

The airline said the plane "made an emergency landing" about 3km (1.9 miles) from Aktau.

It took off from the Azerbaijani capital Baku at 03:55 GMT on Wednesday, and crashed around 06:28, data from flight-tracking website Flightradar24 showed.

There were 62 passengers and 5 crew members on board the Embraer 190 aircraft, the transport ministry said.

Those on board were mostly Azerbaijani nationals, but there were also some passengers from Russia, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan.

Out of the 25 known survivors, 22 were taken to hospital, the emergency ministry said.

Unverified video footage showed emergency services pulling people out of the wreckage and survivors crawling out.

Both Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan have launched investigations into the cause of the accident. Embraer told the BBC it was "ready to assist all relevant authorities".

The BBC has contacted Azerbaijan Airlines for comment.

The aircraft involved was an Embraer E190, the Brazilian company is a smaller rival to Boeing and Airbus, it traditionally has a strong safety record.

 

[God's drunkest driver]

The Aviaustists I have read have said the following:
tl;dr: This was a crash landing, not a crash.

Note this is speculation from pictures, and claimed contacts with NTSB.

The plane was fucked up, depressurized, but controllable in flight. They had slight trouble changing elevation, and they had no landing gear and no flaps. They buckled everyone in for a mostly uncontrolled landing. The plane made it down to the ground controled, but with no gear it was basically landing on its belly and when fast plane meets ground, the plane sort of rolled and came apart.

I disagree. This is labeled an accident on avherald but is a crash, not an accident, not a crash landing. As for avherald Simon Hradecky is an actual autist, not one of those people who likes something and self-labels as an autist to be ironic, and as a result he spergs and refuses to re-categorize things from time to time even though they meet his own standard for a different label. A crash landing is crashing with the intent to land now, what happened here was equivalent to stalling it in on base to final, you don't call that a crash landing because it occurred on approach.

The pilots were clearly trying to make their way to a nearby airport and ran out of skill or control authority or both in managing the aircraft's oscillations with only thrust to control it. For the most part, airline pilots aren't trained to fly an aircraft with only thrust, military sim time has shown that with wing mounted engines and proper training large aircraft can be landed more or less safely, though with difficulty, with only differential thrust. Managing the "phugoid oscillation" isn't really something best figured out for the first time in your missile-crippled aircraft with impending doom but it's so rare that nobody outside of the large military transport pilots are trained for it. They had landing gear, and given a little more skill or a little more time, unless they did wind up losing control of an engine leading up to that steep bank, they eventually most likely could have reached the runway.

 

[Foltest]

The pilots did god work with how they handle the crash.
They knew they were fucked but did their best to make the best of a bad sitatuons.
Captain Igor Kshnyakin, may you rest in peace.

 

[FedPostalService]

The pilots did god work with how they handle the crash.
They knew they were fucked but did their best to make the best of a bad sitatuons.
Captain Igor Kshnyakin, may you rest in peace.

Pilots are a different breed of human being. It never ceases to amaze me how they put the lives of others over their own without thinking.

They deserve 9/11 firefighter levels of pussy.

 

[Google.com]

Just going to point out that in those sample cases the landing gear was working. J2-8243 didn't have any gear (but did have rudder, but only moderate elevator) so I don't think this system would have made a difference here despite its general utility. The other issues was airspeed and no ability to deploy airbrakes, and I don't think this would have helped unless I'm missing something.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, the gear was down and even if it wasn't locked it would have collapsed anyway due to the angle and speed of the impact. All airliners have a switch or crank to release the landing gear in case of an emergency. The doors open and gravity lets them fall and lock into place. It can fail to lock but I don't see any proof they didn't lock in this case, and the impact was so hard it didn't matter either way.

And I don't see how they'd have slight rudder and elevator control. The only hydraulic system that would give them inly that is yellow but it also supplies the outer alerions and they would have way more control.

 

[not william stenchever]

Mr. Putin said Russia has opened a criminal investigation into the crash.

Knowing Russia it'll be some poor schmuck who was nowhere near the battery that fired that'll catch the blame.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

Knowing Russia it'll be some poor schmuck who was nowhere near the battery that fired that'll catch the blame.

This was in Chechnya so the SAM was very likely operated or at least commanded by a Kadyrovite. So you bet your ass they're gonna come up with a scapegoat, or more likely just say something like "We somehow can't figure out which SAM launcher shot the plane down so we can't prosecute anyone.", that's if they ever actually take that extra step and flat out admit they shot it down.

 

[mindlessobserver]

This was in Chechnya so the SAM was very likely operated or at least commanded by a Kadyrovite. So you bet your ass they're gonna come up with a scapegoat, or more likely just say something like "We somehow can't figure out which SAM launcher shot the plane down so we can't prosecute anyone.", that's if they ever actually take that extra step and flat out admit they shot it down.

Bet big money Azerbaijan is working diligently to figure it out too. They held a moment of mourning where all traffic was stopped in Baku and everyone got out of their cars. They are big mad. The chaos scenario of Azerbaijan launching airstrikes on Grozny to kill the people responsible is not out of the potential card draw probability. Especially since it falls under the caption "If Azerbaijan DID militarily retaliate against the Chechens, what realistically could Russia do?"

The answer is exactly what Russia did when Azerbaijan bombed its Peacekeepers in Armenia. Absolutely nothing.

 

[Ghostse]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, the gear was down and even if it wasn't locked it would have collapsed anyway due to the angle and speed of the impact. All airliners have a switch or crank to release the landing gear in case of an emergency. The doors open and gravity lets them fall and lock into place. It can fail to lock but I don't see any proof they didn't lock in this case, and the impact was so hard it didn't matter either way.

You got a source on gear status? Everything I was reading (early days) says that the manuals on the gear weren't working (I don't know if that means woudn't drop or just wouldn't lock) and airbrakes were out due to SAM damage. If I'm incorrect I'd like to be corrected.

 

[Google.com]

You got a source on gear status? Everything I was reading (early days) says that the manuals on the gear weren't working (I don't know if that means woudn't drop or just wouldn't lock) and airbrakes were out due to SAM damage. If I'm incorrect I'd like to be corrected.

I'm not sure what you mean? In the video in the OP you can see that the gear was down and on impact it hit at high speeds hard on the front gear. It could have failed to lock, but the impact was hard on the nose gear at high speeds, it would have failed either way. Air brakes are powered by the red and green systems, but yellow covers ailerons, right elevator, and lower rudder. It doesn't make sense for a SAM impact to damage the plane in a way that only the rudder and elevator would be partially functional because that would mean that both the far left and right ailerons were hit in such a way that didn't cause a hydraulic fluid leak. It only make senses that all systems red, green, and yellow were hit in the tail and leaked out all their hydraulic fluid causing all controls to fail. They feed in such a specific way that even 1 functioning system will allow you to make a controlled landing.

The source for the Hydraulic and Gear system is both in the two videos I sent.

 

[Ghostse]

I'm not sure what you mean? In the video in the OP you can see that the gear was down and on impact it hit at high speeds hard on the front gear. It could have failed to lock, but the impact was hard on the nose gear at high speeds, it would have failed either way. Air brakes are powered by the red and green systems, but yellow covers ailerons, right elevator, and lower rudder. It doesn't make sense for a SAM impact to damage the plane in a way that only the rudder and elevator would be partially functional because that would mean that both the far left and right ailerons were hit in such a way that didn't cause a hydraulic fluid leak. It only make senses that all systems red, green, and yellow were hit in the tail and leaked out all their hydraulic fluid causing all controls to fail. They feed in such a specific way that even 1 functioning system will allow you to make a controlled landing.

The source for the Hydraulic and Gear system is both in the two videos I sent.

Boo on me then, I didn't watch the video just saw stills so when I saw avisperging about landing gear failure I assumed that meant failure to drop/fully engage. I see front gear down and what I thought was wings/engines were the rear gear.

 

[Male Idiot]

This looks like a case on durka on durka hurka durka.

Either that or it was an armenian infiltrator. They are hairy enough when the Moon is full to pose as any durka!

 

[World in Scarlet]

Interview with the president of Azerbaijan. He was quite blunt.

On the causes and attitudes of the Russian government:

Naturally, work has begun on the initial versions. Of course, the final version will become clear after the "black boxes" are opened. However, the initial versions are also quite reasonable and based on facts. The facts are that an Azerbaijani civilian aircraft was damaged from the outside in Russian territory, near the city of Grozny, and it almost lost control. We also know that our aircraft was rendered uncontrollable by electronic warfare means. This was the first threat to the aircraft. At the same time, as a result of fire from the ground, the tail section of the aircraft was also severely damaged, and immediately, on the same day, when our team was already organizing those video materials in the city of Aktau, the public was also informed about this issue. The fact that the fuselage is riddled with holes, of course, shows that the bird version, which was initially shot down by someone, was completely dismissed. It is possible that when the plane was damaged or hit, the pilot could have perceived it as a bird collision with the plane. Because probably no one would have thought that in a country that is friendly to us, our plane would be shot at from the ground. However, unfortunately, some circles in Russia preferred to dwell on this version. One of the points that regretted and surprised us was that the official Russian agencies put forward versions about the explosion of some gas cylinder. In other words, this clearly showed that the Russian side wanted to cover up the issue, and of course, this does not bring shame to anyone. Of course, our plane was shot down by accident. Of course, there can be no question of any deliberate terrorist act here. Therefore, admitting one's guilt, apologizing in a timely manner to Azerbaijan, which is considered a friendly country, and making this known to the public - all these were measures and steps that needed to be taken. Unfortunately, for the first three days, we heard nothing but absurd versions from Russia.

Of course, the details of the accident will be fully investigated. I have no doubt about that. I must also state that Azerbaijan has been in favor of a group of international experts being involved in this work from the very first day. The Russian side officially suggested to us that the Interstate Aviation Committee investigate this case. But we categorically refused. The reason is clear. Because it is no secret that this body consists mostly of Russian officials and is headed by Russian citizens. The factors of objectivity could not be fully ensured here. If we had seen fair and adequate steps from Russia immediately after the accident, perhaps we would not have objected to this. But we saw that attempts to cover up the issue were obvious here.

Therefore, we expressed this position both in close contact with the Kazakh side and expressed our position to the Russian side that a working group consisting only of international experts should be created and was created. There are representatives of the aircraft manufacturer - Embraer, representatives of relevant Brazilian bodies, representatives of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Russia, including the Interstate Aviation Committee. But not in leading roles, but simply as members of the working group. I repeat, after the "black boxes" are opened and we receive more detailed information, the full details of the issue will be revealed and many issues that still remain questions today will be clarified. For example, why could the plane not land in Grozny? To what extent did the effect of radio-electronic warfare affect the control of the plane? How effective were the consequences of the air strike and the explosion next to the plane? Because I must also say that attempts to deny this obvious fact and turn a blind eye to it are both nonsense and stupidity. Because fortunately, thanks to the heroism of the crew, such an event occurred that the plane was able to land, although it was an emergency landing. Many of the passengers were rescued, their testimonies are available. The injuries inflicted on the passengers and crew members by the shrapnel that pierced the plane are obvious. It is both foolish and dishonest to attribute this to birds or to the explosion of a gas cylinder.

Therefore, after the “black boxes” are opened, it will be known why the plane failed to land? When exactly was the plane fired upon from the ground? Why did the plane not attempt to land at the nearby airports, the closer ones were Minvod and Makhachkala. Was the plane sent to Aktau, or was this an objective choice? There are various hypotheses. Some believe that the plane was deliberately sent by the ground service, by Grozny, because the plane was already out of control and there was a high probability that the plane would fall into the sea. In this case, the cover-up attempts will be successful, and the bird version will be presented as the main version. According to some experts, Aktau was chosen because it is an open area and residential areas are far from the airport, and the crew could have assumed that this would be an emergency landing and chose a more suitable place for this. However, on the other hand, with nearby airports, it was more risky to fly further, especially over the sea, if the plane was out of control. In other words, there are no answers to all these questions yet. We, the Azerbaijani side and I personally, are trying to be as fair as possible. We do not want to express our opinion on some unclear issues before they are clarified. However, on obvious issues, we must, we say and will say our opinion with full determination. I said here, in my speech at the airport on the day of the accident, that the Azerbaijani public will be and is regularly informed about this issue, about the progress of this investigation.

-After the accident, AZAL suspended flights to some Russian cities. So, what was the reason for this decision and how are things going now?

-I gave this instruction, and the main reason for this, of course, is security issues. Because in many Russian cities, airspace is periodically closed, and a special operating regime is applied there. They call this “operation caviar”, and returning to the issues I mentioned in the first question, I must also mention it. One thing should also be clarified: when was that “operation caviar” announced? Because according to the information we have, that “operation caviar” was announced after our plane was exposed to external influence. So, if this is so, it once again shows that local services did this to cover up the issue.

As for AZAL flights, AZAL suspended its flights to seven Russian cities, indefinitely. At the same time, we have also suspended flights of Russian airlines from three Russian cities to Azerbaijan. So, our air connections with a total of 10 cities are now suspended, and I repeat, here, first of all, security issues are at the forefront. We have always considered the safety of our passengers as a priority issue, and so this situation was declared. Whatever we do, we do it clearly, and I repeat, this decision has been made, and when will these flights be restored or not, especially to the city of Grozny or not? Most likely, no. But life will show this, and the security issues of Russian airspace will certainly be taken into account.

Azerbaijani demands:

We have openly expressed our demands to the Russian side. These demands were already officially conveyed to them on December 27. What does this consist of? First, the Russian side must apologize to Azerbaijan. Second, it must admit its guilt. Third, it must punish the guilty, bring them to criminal responsibility, and pay compensation to the Azerbaijani state and the injured passengers and crew members. These are our conditions. The first of them was already met yesterday. I hope that our other conditions will also be accepted. All these conditions are fair. There are no extraordinary demands or issues here, and this is based on international experience and normal human behavior.

Expecting "normal human behaviour" from Russians is unfortunately hopeless.

 

[Foltest]

This looks like a case on durka on durka hurka durka.

Either that or it was an armenian infiltrator. They are hairy enough when the Moon is full to pose as any durka!

> Proof is shown that Russia shot it down.
> Putin come out and say they did and are sorry.
> Ballwasher still think someone else did it.
Many such cases.

 

[Flaggy but One]

Preliminary report update. The report is in Russian and needed to be translated. Sounds like it was an absolute nightmare for the pilots.