Dr. Who

[Flexo]

I know, but most people won't access those media and stick to the easily consumable stuff. My favorite Star Wars of all time is a comic based on a game that is based on the Star Wars films. In series that get bigger as the years went by, even stuff like TV series get swept by.

Yes, the point a lot of us fans have been making is that Disney had the perfect opportunity of decades of ready made market research and ready-made product sitting there waiting for them to adapt. They got what few franchises get - essentially a clean slate to "redo sequel one" (as you might put it) and set up a deeper star wars to build upon.

And they blew it hard.

Which Terminator fan watcheed Sara Connor Chronicles? Which Indiana Jones read a single novel in the dozen published? The same goes for any big franchise. You can create as many adjacent works possible, but the first sequel is the most important one. Another example of a bad sequel that kinda ruins the possibilities of other stories: Jurassic Park films, the second is so fucking ass.

Did you not see what I wrote?

your point is 100% spot on and I could do a whole separate rant about first sequels myself.

That was me AGREEING with you about the importance of first sequels.

I think even Star Trek TNG kinda fumbled with it at the start, but back then you could have two or three seasons of a middling series and get even more seasons. You had so much more episodes, nowadays you get less and less that you can't afford to fuck up.

Actually if you really want to get pedantic and autistic, one could argue for awhile over whether TNG was the first sequel or not. Star Trek did have an animated TV show for a couple of seasons. The first Motion Picture might also be argued as the first sequel (it had a lot of ideas from the "Trek 2" development).

You're absolutely right though about shows needing to be good out of the gate and not given time to grow and develop like TNG did.

 

[Shocked and Horrified]

The animated Star Trek series isn't bad. We watched it on Paramount+. William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, DeForest Kelley, James Doohan, Nichelle Nichols, Majel Barrett and George Takei did the voices of many characters. The episodes had some of the writers from the series. I would recommend it.

Sorry if this is derailing da shtream.

 

[Random Internet Person]

It’s either death, or another nap for 15-20 years.

 

[Lone Star]

It’s either death, or another nap for 15-20 years.

I clicked on a random point in the video and that fucking annoying slow-down laugh was the first thing I heard. Fucking Christ, Critical.

 

[Miller]

Which Terminator fan watcheed Sara Connor Chronicles?

One of the best shows ever made.

 

[Dixieland Buckaroo]

Fuck this "Time Lord Romance" schizz. Time Lords come from a Loom. Less fuss, less mess.

 

[WitchOfDarkness]

It’s either death, or another nap for 15-20 years.

The only thing that bothers me about Doctor Who being cancelled is that the timeless child BS is still going to be canon. Expect years of all the expanded material cementing it further.

And when Doctor Who returns again it may take years to be addressed. And they might decide not to try to try on it anyway.

I am not even going to bother. I give up.

 

[Goodbye Horses]

She also let John go off into the future with Summer Glau. I felt that was out of character. She would have gone with him.

I saw that as the culmination of her character growth: she had to let him go so he could become a man, rather than continue to be the boy in his mother's shadow. It had been building to that for a while, but was still a bit abrupt due to the cancellation.

 

[Random Internet Person]

The only thing that bothers me about Doctor Who being cancelled is that the timeless child BS is still going to be canon. Expect years of all the expanded material cementing it further.

And when Doctor Who returns again it may take years to be addressed. And they might decide not to try to try on it anyway.

I am not even going to bother. I give up.

There’s always the chance it gets retconned out of existence with a new showrunner at the helm (which last I heard is what a lot of Star Wars fans are hoping for). Although I’m not sure if the market for expanded material is as big as it was in the old days.

 

[skykiii]

I'll bite the bullet and ask the question. In real sincerity, is the series really worth watching from the start? Obviously not the recent stuff, but does the really old stuff, the very earliest stuff, actually hold up?

I love the older stuff and Hartnell has a real charm to him, however I have to admit its something I don't see having universal appeal the way the Tom Baker seasons do.

One big issue you'll face is that the black and white seasons tend to be much slower and you have to be more willing to parse things through dialogue rather than onscreen action. For example I found the caveman politics of the first story actually fun, but a lot of people find that story boring.

Another thing people seem to be divided on is during Hartnell's era, not every story had to have an alien--it was entirely possible (and in fact quite common) for the story to be just about the TARDIS crew being in the middle of a historical event.

If you can stand that, it is worth watching. Quite a few "they would never do that today" type stories too--the Aztecs for example, basically revolves around the question of whether its okay for an outsider to challenge cultural practices they find abhorrent.

 

[BetterFuckChuck]

I love the older stuff and Hartnell has a real charm to him, however I have to admit its something I don't see having universal appeal the way the Tom Baker seasons do.

One big issue you'll face is that the black and white seasons tend to be much slower and you have to be more willing to parse things through dialogue rather than onscreen action. For example I found the caveman politics of the first story actually fun, but a lot of people find that story boring.

Another thing people seem to be divided on is during Hartnell's era, not every story had to have an alien--it was entirely possible (and in fact quite common) for the story to be just about the TARDIS crew being in the middle of a historical event.

If you can stand that, it is worth watching. Quite a few "they would never do that today" type stories too--the Aztecs for example, basically revolves around the question of whether its okay for an outsider to challenge cultural practices they find abhorrent.

The best Doctor Who story of the original three is Edge of Destruction for this reason: it's more similar to the new show in terms of pacing because it's only 40 minutes in total and it's all great character work. I agree too on Unearthly Child, the caveman politics is truly alien and the establishment of the Doctor and the mystery of Susan is great - which makes that first story stand out a ton. The Daleks is both the strongest and weakest of those original three because the daleks are great villains, but the two episodes of them trying to make their way round the back of the city is so boring you could cut it out and get a tighter plot

 

[Overly Serious]

I saw that as the culmination of her character growth: she had to let him go so he could become a man, rather than continue to be the boy in his mother's shadow. It had been building to that for a while, but was still a bit abrupt due to the cancellation.

Agreed. It worked thematically and was the right call. I still think both of you should spoiler this stuff though as you're basically giving away the end of the show and it's a good show I'd love more people to watch.

There’s always the chance it gets retconned out of existence with a new showrunner at the helm (which last I heard is what a lot of Star Wars fans are hoping for). Although I’m not sure if the market for expanded material is as big as it was in the old days.

As big, I think. But with far more competition. FAR more.

As to Hartnell era, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Aztecs of the Rome sequence. I'm not recommending them over the others particularly, it's just that I thought the Aztecs in particular was regarded as the "best" story.

For me, if we're going to the classic era then for all that Hartnell was wonderful, I think by the time we get to the Second Doctor (or Doctor Two as I like to call him), there are more fun and modern feeling stories to choose from. Also, you get Jaimie and Victoria - a Scottish Highlander and a lady from England in 1866.

 

[12345]

Yeah, stopping at Capaldi was a good idea:

( I totally didn't tear up a the end montage, you did...)

 

[Flexo]

Anecdotally, I knew someone who wasn't really into Who that much though her partner was. When the new companion was announced she knew before I did because I was starting to stop watching by that point. So I asked her so who is it? Her reply: "It's great. She's a lesbian and a Person of Colour". But what is she like, I asked? "She's a lesbian and a person of colour". That's all this individual knew about her and she was clapping and squeeing about it. Because that's the way her mind works: just identity politics and labels.

I Finally found where I had stashed that "personality, what?" meme!

 

[Overly Serious]

I Finally found where I had stashed that "personality, what?" meme!
View attachment 7483756

Class. Lot of that about.

 

[GlupShitto]

I'm praying that the show gets cancelled and never comes back. Let it fade away into obscurity and be forgotten forever. Nobody gives a shit about it anymore and it's been a shambling corpse since the 70s despite a few grace periods where it's been watchable.

 

[AnOminous]

I'm praying that the show gets cancelled and never comes back. Let it fade away into obscurity and be forgotten forever. Nobody gives a shit about it anymore and it's been a shambling corpse since the 70s despite a few grace periods where it's been watchable.

I hope the good parts are remembered. But the show in its current form needs to be put out of its misery and none of the post-McCoy shit needs to be remembered at all. Better it never existed at all.

 

[BetterFuckChuck]

"actually chud, the marketing for the new thing said the old thing did something you hate too, so you need to like both!" (from the tv tropes YMMV page on timeless children)

why the fuck are leftoid slop defenders like this?! the entire timeless children thing was based off of inserting chibnall's autistic headcanon about the morbius doctors, so why is canon contradiction both a bad criticism and also justification for the existence of the episode the nintendo power in current year is shilling?

and like, i dont even see it: the deadly assassin doesn't contradict anything about the time lords, because their depiction was both nuanced and vague enough that it was a question and not an answer. "what are the time lords like?" wasn't a known factor until that episode, for example you could look at War Games and assume they were all bastards who stuck the Doctor in a kangaroo court. What was great about Doctor Who's storytelling was it was made up improvised bullshit BUT it was done with the spirit of great improv: "yes, and..."

The War Doctor caused this obsession with retconning, it went from "yes, and" to "no, instead". "
"There was a time war" -> "Yes, and eight/nine was the ender of the time war" -> "no, instead there was a secret version of the doctor."
"The Doctor had a 12 regen limit and is about to hit it" -> "Yes, and the doctor got more" -> "no, instead the doctor is immortal"
"The Doctor can change his appearance and personality" -> "yes, and the old Doctors can meet eachother via time travel" -> "no, instead they never die and just split in two"
The improv elements of the show are gone and instead it's become a comic book. the throughline of the show is severed and it's hard to get invested in a character when the character isnt a character that is solid in any way. The show is built around reincarnation, but it's went from death and rebirth to never dying at all. It's went from establishing a unique character per doctor, to being able to change that character for the sake of merchandising

Hell the original reason why Holmes revealed the Time Lord society as decedent was to preserve the Doctor's moral character, because he knew that you don't shit on the character's status as a nobody exile who is better than his people and wants to make a change for the better just because of some obscure lore shit you want to address. guess what timeless child does?

The Timeless Child version of the Deadly Assassin would be The Doctor coming to Gallifrey and actually the Time Lords never sentenced him in the first place, it was some aliens pretending to be the Time Lords and the whole episode is a power point presentation about the history of the blob people who were pretending to sentence the Doctor with one last mention at the end that the Time Lords never existed and you're a stupid chud for wanting to watch a time lord episode and then the Doctor leaves after undergoing no character growth but also being made king of all the universe with the ability to fly now

 

[AnOminous]

why the fuck are leftoid slop defenders like this?!

Fuck the Doctor Who Magazine. The only real publication was the Whovian Times.

 

[Overly Serious]

I hope the good parts are remembered. But the show in its current form needs to be put out of its misery and none of the post-McCoy shit needs to be remembered at all. Better it never existed at all.

There's not much in the way of alternatives to Doctor Who. An intelligent, peaceful protagonist who encounters bizarre creatures and situations and solves problems with his genius rather than action. But then current Who doesn't seem much like that anymore anyway. The closest thing to Doctor Who I can think of is The Librarians. Which is a little more child-friendly - what we call Family Entertainment. Excellent cast made up of talented actors who for some reason either never hit the movie scene or didn't stay there (has Rebecca Romijn, formerly Mystique). Budget wise it's kind of like middle-age Doctor Who in its gravel pits era and succeeds for the same reason it did - intelligent writing and charming characters. Hell, it even has a dash of Time Travel and call outs to Doctor Who and others.

"There was a time war" -> "Yes, and eight/nine was the ender of the time war" -> "no, instead there was a secret version of the doctor."

The war doctor should have been Eight. Paul McGann absolutely has the acting chops to pull off a Doctor who is forced into impossible situations and struggles with it. And he has certainly earned it through keeping the Fandom alive through the dead years and the brief glimpse we got of him during the war. It was a travesty not using him as the War Doctor. Even for John Hurt.

and like, i dont even see it: the deadly assassin doesn't contradict anything about the time lords, because their depiction was both nuanced and vague enough that it was a question and not an answer. "what are the time lords like?" wasn't a known factor until that episode, for example you could look at War Games and assume they were all bastards who stuck the Doctor in a kangaroo court. What was great about Doctor Who's storytelling was it was made up improvised bullshit BUT it was done with the spirit of great improv: "yes, and..."

Plus the Second Doctor tells Victoria he's around 450 years old. Doesn't leave a lot of time for multiple previous regenerations.