Dr. Who

[KO 864]

Yeah I disagree with this the historical episodes at least to me are always a drag to get through, it never really feels like anyone can do anything of consequence in the story its just going to move foreward to whatever event of historical importance i.e. the burning of rome. You can use the historical story as context for other things to happen but getting so bogged down in something the character know is going to happen and cant do anything about ruins any kind of tension/investment. The Marco Polo serial was awful.

I can see where you're coming from but I disagree. First off I agree whith what @2odastreams said, the Marco Polo serial barely exists and while the audio exists, Doctor Who is a primarily visual work and just from looking at other such missing serials, the general opinion of say The Enemy of the World changed when more of the video was found. For all we know, MP could be reLly great when complete. It has to have been one of the most liked at the time serials for some reason. Disney was even going to adapt that serial over, let's say, The Daleks. You also have how the theme of the story from both Marco and the Doctor + friends is to get home. That's what the first season was about really and honestly it sometimes saddens me that they never really did quite get there, especially Susan.
And personally I just find the Historical to be a blast. They're usually informative, tend to not fall into he Doctor Who trap of the middle episode being escaping and getting captured again (filler) with the exception of Reign of Terror. I feel the Aztecs shows pretty much all of the strengths of Hartnell's run, with the trying to be educational and fun, the prevailing theme that you can't change history, and often times, the future (e.g how the Doctor tends to do jack shit, how the Thals are pretty much responsible for defeating the Daleks, with some help I guess), Susan being an useless, Barbra and Ian being awesome, the Doctor just dicking around. All the good stuff.

 

[PLB]

My fundamental problems with marco polo are that nothing happens for at least 80% of the run time and the main characters are literally dragged around by the historical figures, those are not things that can be solved without completely changing everything about the serial. It doesnt help that they dont really try to make most of the historical figures likeable or sympathetic, marco might just be trying to get home but he is trapping 4 other people, that the audience will relate to/like more going into it, for only the possibility of his own freedom which makes him a poor protagonist for the serial. The first serial has the same issue and that is complete i just didn't want to mention it because im more forgiving of it with it being the first one.
I think the meddling monk episodes work better than most of the historical episodes in the first couple of seasons is that there is at least the threat that things will actually change, there is a tangible threat more than we need to save x companion.
There are lots of things that are popular at the time they release but are in retrospect awful, like look at any number of things from the early 90's that are ridiculed by todays standards.
We can agree to disagree thats cool personal preference is a thing and it could well be down to me just already knowing a bunch of stuff about most of the settings/events.

 

[Sable]

I know a lot of you are going to disagree with me (and the more I type this the more even I disagree with me) but I don't dislike The Happiness Patrol as much as I do say, Kill the Moon or Fear Her because they're bad in different ways.

Maybe it's because I wasn't around for the politics of the time, but it's not bad in the same way that those examples annoy me. Yes, the villain is a thinly veiled Thatcher expy, yes one of the villains is made of sweets and IIRC, made Bassets try and sue the BBC or something, but it has some ok points.

Like, a world where everyone is initialed instead of surnamed and the government tries to quell unhappness and disrest by making those things simply illegal is kinda neat, or at least doesn't feel as unrealistic as it used to.

 

[LN 910]

I know a lot of you are going to disagree with me (and the more I type this the more even I disagree with me) but I don't dislike The Happiness Patrol as much as I do say, Kill the Moon or Fear Her because they're bad in different ways.

Maybe it's because I wasn't around for the politics of the time, but it's not bad in the same way that those examples annoy me. Yes, the villain is a thinly veiled Thatcher expy, yes one of the villains is made of sweets and IIRC, made Bassets try and sue the BBC or something, but it has some ok points.

Like, a world where everyone is initialed instead of surnamed and the government tries to quell unhappness and disrest by making those things simply illegal is kinda neat, or at least doesn't feel as unrealistic as it used to.

I fucking love all of the Seventh Doctor/Ace era, The Happiness Patrol included. Kandyman's fucking hilarious, and there's a lot of great moments. The TARDIS being painted pink is like, really funny in hindsight, and that bit where the Doctor convinces a pair of guards to drop their guns is such a good moment it should've went in another episode.

Keep in mind Doctor Who hasn't ALWAYS been political like idiots sometimes parrot, but a lot of hamfisted politics will have made it into some of your favourite eras. There's Pertwee episodes that are thinly veiled allegories for joining the EU, for Christ's sake. Complaining about Doctor Who being political nowadays is a very narrow view to adhere to.

A criticism I have of stories like this and Silver Nemesis, other than them not being as great as others of the time, is that in the context of Ace as a character they seem to serve no purpose. What I liked about seasons 25 and 26 is that almost every episode served a purpose in the Doctor's mentoring of Ace. Greatest Show in the Galaxy has him trying to help get her over her fear of clowns, Curse of Fenric is an attempt to resolve Ace's issues with her mother, Ghost LIght is taking her back to an old house in Perivale she had a bad experience with, etc. I can't remember it too well, but does Ace really learn anything here? I'd aim this same criticism at Battlefield, and trust me that's a weird episode, but the friendship she makes in that episode makes it seem like some character growth has happened. I can't even remember if Ace makes a connection with anyone in THP.

 

[TheImportantFart]

I'm glad someone brought up the Kandyman because it gives me the perfect segway into talking about Ravenous 1, the first entry in the new boxset series for the Eighth Doctor and... yeah, I wasn't that impressed.

It wasn't bad, but I liked it significantly less than Doom Coalition 1 and I think I even preferred Dark Eyes 1 over it. I think the biggest problem is the stories just felt so disconnected. They said they wanted to make them more standalone, and fair enough, but if that's the case, why make it into a boxset? Why not just have a new series of Eighth Doctor Adventures?

I gush about Doom Coalition a lot and it wasn't perfect, but it struck the perfect balance between having a continuous story arc while still having reasonably standalone stories which works perfectly for a boxset series. With Dark Eyes you could never tell what was going on because the story was so all over the place, but Ravenous 1 goes to the other extreme in terms of storytelling. The opening two stories have nothing to do with the arc and then we finally get into it in the final two stories. And that would be fine if the individual stories were good, but... well, they weren't that great.

We meet up with Churchill again for the first story which is a paint-by-numbers historical, then we segway into a story set on yet another generic space station which is so similar to Max Warp (from the Eighth Doctor Adventures series 2) you could happily call it a rip-off, then we get into the two-parter finale where things pick up as we meet the Eleven again (the Eleven is one of the best characters Big Finish has ever come up with), but overall I was pretty disappointed. I don't know who exactly was braying for the reappearance of the Kandyman in a slightly more sinister form, but it was certainly not enough to elevate this.

Compare this to Doom Coalition 1. The first story there opened with a cool cameo from the Seventh Doctor before segwaying into a fantastic thriller set on Gallifrey. Then we had The Red Lady, one of the most pants-shittingly terrifying thing I've ever heard on audio. After that we had The Galileo Trap, a fun, exciting historical. And finally we had The Satanic Mill which... okay, The Satanic Mill was a lame finale, but the stuff which came before was so good I didn't care. Compare that to what I've just told you about Ravenous 1 and tell me which one you'd rather listen to.

Like I say, Ravenous 1 wasn't bad, but I was expecting better and I hope it improves because I've pre-ordered all four boxsets. Others should perhaps think a little harder before they do what I did.

 

[Sable]

Oh, I wasn't disparaging the Seventh Doctor really, if we're being honest he's one of my favourites.

I like Greatest Show in the Galaxy, and the fact it's also taking the mick out of crazy Who fans and the people in charge of the BBC is kinda funny.

Plus you know, it had a werewolf in it.

Nemesis might be one of the ones I dislike out of it, but that's largely in part of how it was wasted. I mean it's the 25th anniversary episode and the first appearence of the Cybermen in awhile. One of the main problems is it had too many sides to but it didn't work right, like there were neo-Nazi's (the fled-to-Argentina kind), the Cybermen and a time travelling 16th century (?) noblewoman. I think you could probably have cut one of those three out.

Oh, and it was the apex of the Cybermen's weakness to gold.

 

[UnKillFill]

I'm glad someone brought up the Kandyman because it gives me the perfect segway into talking about Ravenous 1, the first entry in the new boxset series for the Eighth Doctor and... yeah, I wasn't that impressed.

It wasn't bad, but I liked it significantly less than Doom Coalition 1 and I think I even preferred Dark Eyes 1 over it. I think the biggest problem is the stories just felt so disconnected. They said they wanted to make them more standalone, and fair enough, but if that's the case, why make it into a boxset? Why not just have a new series of Eighth Doctor Adventures?

I gush about Doom Coalition a lot and it wasn't perfect, but it struck the perfect balance between having a continuous story arc while still having reasonably standalone stories which works perfectly for a boxset series. With Dark Eyes you could never tell what was going on because the story was so all over the place, but Ravenous 1 goes to the other extreme in terms of storytelling. The opening two stories have nothing to do with the arc and then we finally get into it in the final two stories. And that would be fine if the individual stories were good, but... well, they weren't that great.

We meet up with Churchill again for the first story which is a paint-by-numbers historical, then we segway into a story set on yet another generic space station which is so similar to Max Warp (from the Eighth Doctor Adventures series 2) you could happily call it a rip-off, then we get into the two-parter finale where things pick up as we meet the Eleven again (the Eleven is one of the best characters Big Finish has ever come up with), but overall I was pretty disappointed. I don't know who exactly was braying for the reappearance of the Kandyman in a slightly more sinister form, but it was certainly not enough to elevate this.

Compare this to Doom Coalition 1. The first story there opened with a cool cameo from the Seventh Doctor before segwaying into a fantastic thriller set on Gallifrey. Then we had The Red Lady, one of the most pants-shittingly terrifying thing I've ever heard on audio. After that we had The Galileo Trap, a fun, exciting historical. And finally we had The Satanic Mill which... okay, The Satanic Mill was a lame finale, but the stuff which came before was so good I didn't care. Compare that to what I've just told you about Ravenous 1 and tell me which one you'd rather listen to.

Like I say, Ravenous 1 wasn't bad, but I was expecting better and I hope it improves because I've pre-ordered all four boxsets. Others should perhaps think a little harder before they do what I did.

My biggest problem with Ravenous I was one that you touched on, but I want to expound on it... the first two episodes were almost entirely pointless.

Neither was "bad" in my opinion, I actually rather enjoyed the historical episode in fact, forgettable as it was... But I do believe it would have been better as a stand alone than heading up a box set.

Because of this, the pacing of Ravenous I was all over the place, with the first half dragging, almost seeming like it's procrastinating, and then the two-parter (when narrative-related things finally start happening) felt oddly rushed. I would have started with the 2-parter, and built it up even more.


As for the main cast: McGann was fine... I fear he may be starting to get bored with the role again, and his performance always suffers when that happens.. But it was fine here.

The Eleven of course was great, as he always is... And I love me some Liv. I didn't know where Helen was coming from at all in this story, but I guess she's always been kind of bland, so in theory this was an improvement on her character.

Kandyman did feel like an odd call back, especially since the character in Ravenous seemingly has fuck all to do with the original... I did like this version as his own villain however.

No real standouts for the side characters imo (except for Mcneice, who always does a "neice" job as Churchill)

Ultimately, I agree with you that I'm not as invested in this story as I was at this point in Doom Coalition. For the record... While it had its flaws, I actually liked Dark Eyes quite a bit more than most people seem to (Mostly for its liberal use of the Macqueen master, one of my favorite Masters; He kind of reminds me of Guru Larry for some reason... lol.) I will say, Dark Eyes totally fizzled out near the end, and should have been a LOT better.

 

[TheImportantFart]

While it had its flaws, I actually liked Dark Eyes quite a bit more than most people seem to

This isn't actually a very unpopular opinion - in my experience most people seemed to prefer Dark Eyes to Doom Coalition.

 

[UnKillFill]

This isn't actually a very unpopular opinion - in my experience most people seemed to prefer Dark Eyes to Doom Coalition.

If that is actually the case, that is news to me... All the reviews I've seen have said Doom Coalition as a whole was better than Dark Eyes.... Again, as a whole..

 

[Mr. 0]

Speaking of Big Finish, I found some more unmade stuff from Doctor Who:
http://notthebigfinishforum.freeforums.net/thread/2640/big-finishs-own-missing-stories

Most of it has to do with the monthly stories though. The things that stood out the most to me though, were these:

Spoiler: Seventh vs. Eighth Doctor

The third thread:


gallifreybase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195454

Discusses a 7th vs 8th Doctor story pitched by Steven Hall



A few months ago Steven Hall teased his pitch for a 50th Anniversary 7/8th Doctor story called 'Fifty-Fifty'. This however relied on different directions to the Eighth Doctor/Lucie arc as well as the Seventh Doctor arc following a different version of the Black & White trilogy:


Dan Hall:

I can answer some of this!

I had an idea for an epic 7th Doctor vs 8th Doctor story in mind when I wrote A Death in the Family. The seeds for a major conflict between the two are certainly there and I thought it'd be really interesting. That was my plan for my final BF story & the last part of my 'trilogy'. So quite a few character moments in ADitF were building towards a big, epic and pretty brutal showdown between the two doctors, with Ace and Hex (and Lucy) having to choose sides. It would've been called "50/50" and, at the time I was planning it, cliffhangered out of what would become the Black and White trilogy (and, as it evolved, out of To The Death too!) and into anniversary year.

I think the ship has sailed. It relied on a very different ending to the Black & White trilogy and had a very different reason for the return of the Old Gods (something was travelling fast through the dimensions smashing holes in them and freeing all kinds of horrible things - the object, when 7 finally tracked it down, was actually a bruised and battered 8th Doctor, who would then confide in Hex that 7 did it to him - that they were fast approaching the moment where 7 went bad. That would've been the cliffhanger ending from the B&W stories). It also needed 7 and 8 to be at very specific points in their timelines, and those have been tackled now. Both characters have moved on. So has Hex. So its place in the world doesn't really exist anymore. It's one of a new generation of Lost Stories.



Other GB members chimed in with their thoughts:

I seem to recall that the original idea wasn't so much "the Eighth Doctor goes to war with the Seventh" as "the Seventh Doctor comes across an Eighth Doctor that he'll - allegedly- later take down for Not Being Up To It."...

...A shame it couldn't have happened with the apparently originally planned companions: Ace, Hex and Lucie. Hex and Lucie would both probably have switched 'sides', ironically for the same reason: the Doctor hiding the truth about their family.


Someone later in the thread posts a conversation he had with Hall on twitter:



@dannylavery 2h

@stevenha11 over on GallifreyBase we're discussing your #DrWho50 7v8 idea - was there ever a fuller outline of sorts?It sounded incredible!



‏@stevenha11

@dannylavery It's maybe my biggest 'lost project'. I would've loved to round out my trilogy!



@dannylavery 2h

@stevenha11 hopefully someday did you have a lot of story notes for it? where everyone ended up?



@stevenha11 1h

@dannylavery Oh yeah, I'd figured out what happened to everyone!



‏@dannylavery 1h

@stevenha11 will you tell us the whole story as you had it some day or is it a closely guarded secret



‏@stevenha11 1h

@dannylavery Once enough time has passed than none of it will ever be used by anyone (including me!), I may do!



@stevenha11 1h

@dannylavery I will tell you that in involved an awesome piece of technology called a Temporal Wish, which allowed specific events to... …rewritten with no damage to the timelines. (the Wish mechanism recalculated and reengineered time to allow things...dangerous things, heading for the Big Bang.



@dannylavery 59m

@stevenha11 Cool it will be interesting but that said if BF run with it again (with different companions presumably) then great. With the Dark 7 arc continues(Klein)with the seeds you've sown the idea still has legs (mind you u never know what the lads have planned)



‏@dannylavery 54m

@stevenha11 Yup. Sounds like @bigfinish haha!



@stevenha11 53m

@dannylavery The plot hinged on this being a very specific point in time for 7 & co and 8 & co, sadly.



@stevenha11 52m

@dannylavery still, the guys may still use elements of it somewhere down the road. Who knows - it's in their hands!



‏@dannylavery 49m

@stevenha11 hmm well maybe yeah you never know! With different subplots it could work-Benny knows both Drs, Klein arc sees 7 dark&mysterious



‏@dannylavery 48m

@stevenha11 god knows where Dark Eyes is going, but I see what you mean it would be fairly different. but 7v8 such a bold idea



‏@stevenha11 46m

@dannylavery It an exciting idea. I hope someone comes along and does it justice one day!



@dannylavery 46m

@stevenha11 it would work though with the arcs specifically 7, different to the usual team ups - most original multiDoc since DarkDimension



@stevenha11 2 hrs

That was the plan!



‏@dannylavery 45m

@stevenha11 totally!!



@dannylavery 2 hrs

@stevenha11 lol I had to show you this! Such a dodgy throw together though, did this a while back... pic.twitter.com/9r4l8ngVs6



‏@stevenha11 2 hrs

@dannylavery That's fantastic! I guess I'd always hoped someone would do a cover. Brilliant!


Hall later replied in the thread:

Hey folks,



For what it's worth, there is a tweet missing from that bundle…



@dannylavery I will tell you that in involved an awesome piece of technology called a Temporal Wish, which allowed specific events to... …rewritten with no damage to the timelines. (the Wish mechanism recalculated and reengineered time to allow things...…to be changed without fallout). It could only be used three times, and was onboard a ship called the Pelican, with many other…...dangerous things, heading for the Big Bang.



Also - there was a very good reason for everyone's motivation, I promise!



Thanks for all your kind words on my work, btw. Hopefully I'll be able to get back and write some more Who one day!



Steven

Spoiler: Forge spinoff/Ace's departure story

gallifreybase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195454

Discusses a 7th vs 8th Doctor story pitched by Steven Hall


‏@dannylavery 1h


That would be me interrogating Mr Hall!!

Also before this the Ace/Hex story could have had ANOTHER ending. Before Gary Russell left the producer role there were plans for Ace & Hex to lead a FORGE spinoff (which I'm slightly surprised hasn't happened since)



Project: Destiny that wrapped up Nimrod’s story was quite different to the one that had originally been planned. Originally ‘Project 3’ was supposed to come out in 2006. The Forge was going to be given a new Director, much to Nimrod’s disgust. In the opening scene, our villain would be called to the Director’s office to find Ace sitting in his boss’s chair with Hex on the phone, arguing with someone at Whitehall. Then a door would open and the Seventh Doctor would stroll in. Just before the sting of the opening titles, the Doctor would utter the immortal line:



“The Forge works for me now Nimrod – and so do you!”



While the main plot did have some similarities to the recorded Project: Destiny, the ending was quite different. Nimrod was to end up a fugitive agent, on the run from the authorities, while Ace and Hex would leave the TARDIS to rebuild the Forge as a force for good. The following month a new spin-off series was due to be launched, continuing Ace and Hex’s adventures.



Of course, when the release date was pushed back to 2008, Torchwood had put pay to that last idea. After all, we couldn’t have two former companions running black-op organisations from subterranean bases in the Doctor Who universe could we?



One day, I need to dig out all the notes for the abandoned Project. I’ve just found one file on my hard drive which includes a scrap of dialogue from Ace and Hex for the end of episode four. It’s very rough, but it shows where we were going:



Hex: Do you think he’ll be alright, Ace? Without us, like…



Ace: Do you think he’ll go too far, you mean?



Hex: Well, yeah.



Ace: Knowing the Doctor, I doubt he’ll be alone for long. I hope.



Hex (Changing the subject): You know, I can’t believe we signed up for this. A ruin of an HQ, a security chief who hates our guts and the most dangerous collection of xenotech on the planet. Where do we even start?



Ace: Oh, I’m sure we’ll think of something. Come on Hex, we’ve got work to do.



END TITLES



As I said, it needed some work, but it would have been fun to see where it led to.


From Cavan Scott's blog: cavanscott.com/2011/07/21/twilights-end-and-lost-stories/

Personally I thought that the Hex arc should have ended with A Death in the Family; for some reason with even The Angel of Scutari and Afterlife it seemed there would be an ending but it continued, it felt very peculiar.

 

[LN 910]

Did you guys hear that apparently Eric Roberts is returning as the Master for a River Song boxset?

 

[TheImportantFart]

Did you guys hear that apparently Eric Roberts is returning as the Master for a River Song boxset?

Yes. Hey Big Finish! Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

 

[LN 910]

Yes. Hey Big Finish! Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

The first story will probably feature Gomez and Kingston, as it's called The Bekdel [sic] Test. But who knows? Maybe it's a Kingston/Roberts story, after all he does drezzzz for the occasion.

 

[UnKillFill]

The first story will probably feature Gomez and Kingston, as it's called The Bekdel [sic] Test. But who knows? Maybe it's a Kingston/Roberts story, after all he does drezzzz for the occasion.

A Big Finish multi-master team up story where they leave out MacQueen (But have Eric Roberts!!?!)? That's just disappointing. Jacobi will be brilliant as always, as will Beevers. Not sure why Gomez is in this, she never played the master. (Not well anyways.)

 

[Mr. 0]

A Big Finish multi-master team up story where they leave out MacQueen (But have Eric Roberts!!‽)? That's just disappointing. Jacobi will be brilliant as always, as will Beevers. Not sure why Gomez is in this, she never played the master. (Not well anyways.)

Someone speculated it's a marketing thing: get all the Masters that have been played by someone on-screen to appeal to the casual viewer who is familiar with Doctor Who but not with the audioplay spinoffs. And make it Volume 5 to try to entice them to check out the preceding 4 releases.

 

[UnKillFill]

Someone speculated it's a marketing thing: get all the Masters that have been played by someone on-screen to appeal to the casual viewer who is familiar with Doctor Who but not with the audioplay spinoffs. And make it Volume 5 to try to entice them to check out the preceding 4 releases.

If that's the case, John Simm seems like an odd exclusion seeing as he was *The* Master for most casuals up until the past few seasons. (And Roberts sounds like an odd inclusion... As does Beevers, come to think about it.)

 

[Mr. 0]

If that's the case, John Simm seems like an odd exclusion seeing as he was *The* Master for most casuals up until the past few seasons. (And Roberts sounds like an odd inclusion... As does Beevers, come to think about it.)

Geoffrey Beevers is probably for that set of fans of Big Finish that believe Beevers should be all the Masters in every story the Master features in. Even the Third Doctor Adventures.
Eric Roberts probably wasn't even asked (like ever) until they started production of this shit.
John Simm could either be an availability issue (maybe they couldn't get him which is why they got Roberts), there could be some catch for actually getting him, or it's a fucking continuity issue brought on by little miss Moffat (though that raises a few questions regarding the Eric Roberts Master).

Speaking of which, didn't 20th Century Fox own some shit related to the Doctor Who movie? Did that just revert to the BBC after the Disney buyout?

 

[UnKillFill]

Geoffrey Beevers is probably for that set of fans of Big Finish that believe Beevers should be all the Masters in every story the Master features in. Even the Third Doctor Adventures.
Eric Roberts probably wasn't even asked (like ever) until they started production of this shit.
John Simm could either be an availability issue (maybe they couldn't get him which is why they got Roberts), there could be some catch for actually getting him, or it's a fucking continuity issue brought on by little miss Moffat (though that raises a few questions regarding the Eric Roberts Master).

Speaking of which, didn't 20th Century Fox own some shit related to the Doctor Who movie? Did that just revert to the BBC after the Disney buyout?

Don't get me wrong, I am a Be(li)ever(s) (sorry, that was retarded)... I just *really* love the MacQueen master- He is my favorite still-living Master in fact... (Though Jacobi is a close second, and Beevers himself an even closer third) and his absence just seems like a massive oversight to me.

Truth be told, I'm not even opposed to Eric Roberts reprising his role... I'm actually curious to see how they'll do it. (His version is so over the top and unlike anything else that character has ever been... I really just want to see how they play it.)

I don't see any reason why there would be a continuity issue with Simms' Master: there's a huge unknown gap in between when he got stuck with the Timelords in "The End of Time" and when he somehow escaped and randomly showed up in "World Enough and Time" where literally anything could happen. (And if they wanted to stretch it, which they've done before, there is technically an unaccounted for gap in between "Utopia" and "The Sound of Drums"... but that would be dumb.) And yeah, I totally agree... If ANY Master was going to have continuity issues, it would be the Roberts Master... Actually, I take that back... The Roberts Master clearly *must* have somehow escaped being sucked into the heart of the T.A.R.D.I.S., or whatever the hell happened to him at the end of that movie, and we know literally nothing else about his exploits until Jacobi's "War Master." (Who I must again say is fantastic)

I suppose availability makes sense for Simms, but I know for a fact that Big Finish have done episodes before where they couldn't get everyone together at the same time. So I really have no clue.

As for the ownership thing, I believe 20th Century Fox own the rights to all of the characters who were explicitly created for the '96 TV movie (Namely Grace Holloway, Chang Lee, and whoever the hell Will Sasso was playing... Which is why none of those characters have ever appeared in a Big Finish audio, even though the actors who played the first two at least have appeared multiple times, in multiple iterations..)

Even though McGann's 8th Doctor was technically created for the movie, he clearly doesn't count due to all of his appearances... (I guess because he is a different version of an already established character?), I would assume that Roberts' Master would technically be in the same territory, just (as you said) noone bothered to ask him until now.

I could not say whether or not rights reverted (I doubt it) But as I said, I do not believe it is relevant to the return of Roberts' Master.

 

[Mr. 0]

Don't get me wrong, I am a Be(li)ever(s) (sorry, that was exceptional)... I just *really* love the MacQueen master- He is my favorite still-living Master in fact... (Though Jacobi is a close second, and Beevers himself an even closer third) and his absence just seems like a massive oversight to me.

I've only heard him in UNIT: Dominion so not enough to agree/disagree over whether or not he's good (though in that one he was fucking clever, I'll give him that).

Truth be told, I'm not even opposed to Eric Roberts reprising his role... I'm actually curious to see how they'll do it. (His version is so over the top and unlike anything else that character has ever been... I really just want to see how they play it.)

The cover for this thing is out now...

...and they don't appear to be hiding Eric Roberts's age so something interesting might be at play here, story-wise. Keep in mind they don't usually use actors' current appearances on the covers of their shit (think Counter-Measures vs. The New Counter-Measures), Geoffrey Beevers here gets an out by way of his makeup

I don't see any reason why there would be a continuity issue with Simms' Master: there's a huge unknown gap in between when he got stuck with the Timelords in "The End of Time" and when he somehow escaped and randomly showed up in "World Enough and Time" where literally anything could happen. (And if they wanted to stretch it, which they've done before, there is technically an unaccounted for gap in between "Utopia" and "The Sound of Drums"... but that would be dumb.) And yeah, I totally agree... If ANY Master was going to have continuity issues, it would be the Roberts Master... Actually, I take that back... The Roberts Master clearly *must* have somehow escaped being sucked into the heart of the T.A.R.D.I.S., or whatever the hell happened to him at the end of that movie, and we know literally nothing else about his exploits until Jacobi's "War Master." (Who I must again say is fantastic)

I guess you're right about the Simm thing, maybe I misremembered the dialogue from the episode (I just looked up a clip and realized there wasn't anything particularly memorable about that whole season except for the finale. I never saw the Christmas special.)
I never saw the movie either but I've been meaning to for some time, just never got around for it.
Derek Jacobi's Master in Utopia, I'm also reminded, was criminally wasted, and should've just escaped into the fucking night, and then have Simm's Master just show up as in the show proper (dumb, I know, but it leaves the door wide open).

I suppose availability makes sense for Simms, but I know for a fact that Big Finish have done episodes before where they couldn't get everyone together at the same time. So I really have no clue.

Could also be a BBC approval thing; I read somewhere that all the Big Finish scripts have to get the go-ahead before they go into production (to avoid doing the exact same thing or keep things way too similar from being made), and maybe the idea was pitched but not approved. Simm's Master was a Tenth Doctor era thing and BF has been able to go crazy with new series stuff since 2014 (everything, more or less, up to the end of The Time of the Doctor) yet he still showed up at the ass end of the Twelfth Doctor's era. It could even be related to said appearance, because if it shows up on TV and it's not a monster, Big Finish can't use it (like Sarah Jane Smith, whose series was pretty damn good and sadly got left on a permanently unresolved cliffhanger) for a certain period of time.

As for the ownership thing, I believe 20th Century Fox own the rights to all of the characters who were explicitly created for the '96 TV movie (Namely Grace Holloway, Chang Lee, and whoever the hell Will Sasso was playing... Which is why none of those characters have ever appeared in a Big Finish audio, even though the actors who played the first two at least have appeared multiple times, in multiple iterations..)

Even though McGann's 8th Doctor was technically created for the movie, he clearly doesn't count due to all of his appearances... (I guess because he is a different version of an already established character?), I would assume that Roberts' Master would technically be in the same territory, just (as you said) noone bothered to ask him until now.

I could not say whether or not rights reverted (I doubt it) But as I said, I do not believe it is relevant to the return of Roberts' Master.

People have been clamoring for Grace Holloway at least to show up in an Eighth Doctor story for years (she cameoed in that 50th anniversary comic), so there's that. Reason I ask is because if the rights haven't reverted then does that mean Disney will end up with a minor piece of Doctor Who? That they might take to think "oh we have this maybe we should take the whole thing" (granted this is salt from Star Wars talking, but still).
Also everything I've heard Yee Jee Tso in (Real Time, Excelis Decays, etc) only demonstrates he can't act outside of a monotone, so fuck him

 

[UnKillFill]

I've only heard him in UNIT: Dominion so not enough to agree/disagree over whether or not he's good (though in that one he was fucking clever, I'll give him that).


The cover for this thing is out now...

...and they don't appear to be hiding Eric Roberts's age so something interesting might be at play here, story-wise. Keep in mind they don't usually use actors' current appearances on the covers of their shit (think Counter-Measures vs. The New Counter-Measures), Geoffrey Beevers here gets an out by way of his makeup

I would *highly* suggest that you seek out both the *entirety* of the 8th Doctor's "Dark Eyes" quadrilogy (where he features massively) but also the (somewhat) recent "two masters" trilogy where both he and the ubiquitous Geoffrey Beevers feature.

I guess you're right about the Simm thing, maybe I misremembered the dialogue from the episode (I just looked up a clip and realized there wasn't anything particularly memorable about that whole season except for the finale. I never saw the Christmas special.)
I never saw the movie either but I've been meaning to for some time, just never got around for it.
Derek Jacobi's Master in Utopia, I'm also reminded, was criminally wasted, and should've just escaped into the fucking night, and then have Simm's Master just show up as in the show proper (dumb, I know, but it leaves the door wide open).

Check out all of the things you mentioned... also, check out the "War Master" Big finish release, because Jacobi is amazing in that... Also check out the the "Gallifrey Time War" set, because they use Also use Jacobi "Master"fully (pardon the pun, lol)... And Jeez, I totally lament the fact that John Hurt died before we were able to see him and Jacobi in the same story That would have been amazing....

Could also be a BBC approval thing; I read somewhere that all the Big Finish scripts have to get the go-ahead before they go into production (to avoid doing the exact same thing or keep things way too similar from being made), and maybe the idea was pitched but not approved. Simm's Master was a Tenth Doctor era thing and BF has been able to go crazy with new series stuff since 2014 (everything, more or less, up to the end of The Time of the Doctor) yet he still showed up at the ass end of the Twelfth Doctor's era. It could even be related to said appearance, because if it shows up on TV and it's not a monster, Big Finish can't use it (like Sarah Jane Smith, whose series was pretty damn good and sadly got left on a permanently unresolved cliffhanger) for a certain period of time.

As I said before, I do not know the extent of any agreements that big finish has made... If "The Time of the Doctor" was the cutoff, than that is news to me... Although "Missy" has also appeared since then.. (In the very same episodes where Simms appeared... for what its worth ) So I do kind of doubt it...

People have been clamoring for Grace Holloway at least to show up in an Eighth Doctor story for years (she cameoed in that 50th anniversary comic), so there's that. Reason I ask is because if the rights haven't reverted then does that mean Disney will end up with a minor piece of Doctor Who? That they might take to think "oh we have this maybe we should take the whole thing" (granted this is salt from Star Wars talking, but still).
Also everything I've heard Yee Jee Tso in (Real Time, Excelis Decays, etc) only demonstrates he can't act outside of a monotone, so fuck him

I don't disagree with anything you said here... But IDK if Disney currently owns any rights to Doctor Who or not... (My instinct is at the very most, they only own the characters I mentioned... ) I do doubt they could afford to buy the entirety of Doctor Who though currently... (might be wrong)