Dr. Who

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

And I can't help but laugh when I think he went on to do films like G.I. fucking Joe of all things.

It gets better. Remember Thor the Dark World? aka the worst, non-woke, MCU movie (so far). In interviews, Eccleston seemed super excited about his role and he even talks about how deep and interesting Malekith is...

And, as everyone knows, he ends up playing the most forgettable one dimensional main MCU movie villain. Dunno if they cut Malekiths scenes that fleshed him out or whatever, but it's sad to see how he left his iconic role as the doctor, a role for which he was getting a lot of praise and fame, for forgettable ones like Malekith.

 

[Maamtis]

It gets better. Remember Thor the Dark World? aka the worst, non-woke, MCU movie (so far). In interviews, Eccleston seemed super excited about his role and he even talks about how deep and interesting Malekith is...
https://youtube.com/watch?v=w9CsO5iHDz8
https://youtube.com/watch?v=3UheV5Fzwyg

And, as everyone knows, he ends up playing the most forgettable one dimensional main MCU movie villain. Dunno if they cut Malekiths scenes that fleshed him out or whatever, but it's sad too how he left his iconic role as the doctor, a role for which he was getting a lot of praise and fame, for forgettable characters like Malekith.

My partner watches that movie all the time and I STILL forgot he was in it.

 

[Flexo]

The Doctor Who (heh) ended the Time War" was an essential character in that story. It could have *easily* been 9 with minimal re-writing. (Actually it would have fit *better* with the story as it was written, seeing as how 'The Moment' appeared as Rose Tyler.) But yeah, again, fuck Eccleston.

Finally, (and most importantly,) "The War Doctor," didn't *actually* contradict anything we had previously seen before on screen. Yeah, it was stupid at the time, and it still is... "He had to kill people, (like each and every single one of my incarnations before and after have had to do at some point,) So I don't actually consider him to be 'The Doctor' that's why he never came up before now." But yeah... We never actually *saw* 8 regenerate into 9 (And Moffat was actually good enough to *finally* give us 8's regeneration. As a consolation, he even got McGann to come back for it to regenerate into the War Doctor, and it was actually a pretty great minisode

I get all that and you're right.

But if they couldn't get Christopher I REALLY wish the had run with the 8th in that special. Paul McGhan was too awesome for the crap movie and tiny short we had of him.

 

[Pumpkin Girl IRL]

Eccleston is apparently quite difficult to work with, and was ejected from GI Joe for this reason. I don't know how true that is though...

 

[Iron Hamster]

Eccleston is apparently quite difficult to work with, and was ejected from GI Joe for this reason. I don't know how true that is though...

At the time he bailed, he had stated he didn't want his career defined by being the Doctor. As if being known as 'Calitri' will get him a star.

 

[UnKillFill]

It would help to see where you were even getting any of this. It sounds like you're playing telephone with his 50th anniversary message to the fans (a joke about appearing in the 100th anniversary special). And that bit about typecasting was put out by the BBC if I'm not mistaken (he's said several times he had problems with people who were running the show, most recently one of them being identified as Russel T. Davies himself).

Eccleston seems to me to be genuinely mentally ill. He was never *blacklisted* after his run as the 9th Doctor. (Even though that's still to this day what he's most known for.) It isn't anybody's fault but his own that he did such a shit job as the villain of Thor 2 that he's irrelevant as an actor now. If he had been 'blacklisted', he wouldn't have even gotten that role in the first place, and if he had actually been *good* in... well, *anything*(he wasn't) he presumably would have gotten more roles since then.

I'll look and see if I can find that article about him not coming back because Moffat didnt meet his ridiculous demands, but it's been years at this point so no promises.

 

[DDBCAE CBAADCBE]

Eccleston seems to me to be genuinely mentally ill. He was never *blacklisted* after his run as the 9th Doctor. (Even though that's still to this day what he's most known for.) It isn't anybody's fault but his own that he did such a shit job as the villain of Thor 2 that he's irrelevant as an actor now. If he had been 'blacklisted', he wouldn't have even gotten that role in the first place, and if he had actually been *good* in... well, *anything*(he wasn't) he presumably would have gotten more roles since then.

I'll look and see if I can find that article about him not coming back because Moffat didnt meet his ridiculous demands, but it's been years at this point so no promises.

He's my second favorite Doctor from New Who. Though to be fair I gave up on the show once they retconned the result of the time war.

 

[Cubanodun]

Hartnell could have possibly regenerated into a sassy Black Womyn before he *actually* regenerated into Troughton..

The theory that my guys in discord have is that the writers are flexibilizing the rule of Alternate dimensions because they actually break it when the Doctor returned to Gallifrey very easily only to see it razed to the ground the rule was stablished but played it during Tennant era, he said that Time lords could easily travel between dimensions but he couldnt because his TARDIS is not equipped for that, when he actually traveled to another dimensions full of Cyberman his TARDIS lose all power and would not work, this could be supported by the fact that the Doctor upgraded the TARDIS recently with the help of the Master

The theory of that she is pre Hartnell also die very quickly because we actually see Hartnell Doctor as a child and the numbers of regeneration actually matched, including her as a actual regeneration would render all the plot for recharging Matt smith and all the plot that came to the regeneration of Capaldi meaningless

 

[Flexo]

I'll look and see if I can find that article about him not coming back because Moffat didnt meet his ridiculous demands, but it's been years at this point so no promises.

I heard about it from sfdebris q&a but he didn't give a source.

 

[UnKillFill]

The theory that my guys in discord have is that the writers are flexibilizing the rule of Alternate dimensions because they actually break it when the Doctor returned to Gallifrey very easily only to see it razed to the ground the rule was stablished but played it during Tennant era, he said that Time lords could easily travel between dimensions but he couldnt because his TARDIS is not equipped for that, when he actually traveled to another dimensions full of Cyberman his TARDIS lose all power and would not work, this could be supported by the fact that the Doctor upgraded the TARDIS recently with the help of the Master

The theory of that she is pre Hartnell also die very quickly because we actually see Hartnell Doctor as a child and the numbers of regeneration actually matched, including her as a actual regeneration would render all the plot for recharging Matt smith and all the plot that came to the regeneration of Capaldi meaningless

There are interviews out there with Chibs explicitly saying this isn't a parallel universe Doctor.

There's no way this Doctor predates Hartnell, it simply contradicts too many *important* things that we've seen on screen already.

What they're *probably* going to do (and fuck me, I hate it.) is stick her in between 2 and 3.
We never actually see Troughton turn into Pertwee, and it's a widely held theory that 2 stuck around for longer than we see him onscreen in Wargames anyway.

What this doesn't explain, as you said, is how Tennant regenerated into Smith, because the Doctor should have been out of regenerations at that point.

 

[Cubanodun]

There are interviews out there with Chibs explicitly saying this isn't a parallel universe Doctor.

There's no way this Doctor predates Hartnell, it simply contradicts too many *important* things that we've seen on screen already.

What they're *probably* going to do (and fuck me, I hate it.) is stick her in between 2 and 3.
We never actually see Troughton turn into Pertwee, and it's a widely held theory that 2 stuck around for longer than we see him onscreen in Wargames anyway.

What this doesn't explain, as you said, is how Tennant regenerated into Smith, because the Doctor should have been out of regenerations at that point.

I have to get a list of things we already discarded in discord to see where are we going with this

Spoiler: List of things we talked about it

That she is a regeneration of the Meta Crisis doctor --- technically he is not from other dimension, and hybrids could change appearance but this die very quickly by the fact that she doesnt know what the sonic screwdriver is

That she is a regeneration of the Doctor's daughter ---- probably but we actually saw her regenerating once and she did not change shape so it was discarded pretty quickly

That she is somehow connected to the Valeyard plot --- we got something here, i dont know exactly because i have only been following doctor who since the reboot, but according to the wikia the Thirteen doctor aka Whittaker did some kind of research about regenerations in the moon of Etarho, something tell me that this doctor is actually a result of Whittaker trying to investigate how she came to be and she was born as a result of whatever Whittaker did on there

Other theory is that she is actually a regeneration of the Valeyard, according to the wiki his memory got blasted to oblivion when he tried to use a weapon on the daleks in the time wars that would explain why Whitaker doesn't know her, why the scan show them as they are the same person and why she did not know about the sonic, also would explain why she has a TARDIS, remember she has one but not necessarily it had to be doctors one, he probably had one in the time wars and just used the chameleon circuit to make it look like the doctor one, this also would explain what the "job" actually was (aka fighting daleks in ways that the doctor would not approve like exterminatus)

Actually the more i read about the valeyard the more im convinced this doctor is related to him

That she is a regeneration between 2 and 3 was discarded pretty quickly because BBC in their youtube channel and in all the other official lore specifically say that Troughton regenerated into Pertwee when he was exiled to earth, i had to check the clip and found amusing that when he was give the choice of what face he should have someone that looked like Matt smith and someone that looked like John hurt actually appeared

 

[Flexo]

There are interviews out there with Chibs explicitly saying this isn't a parallel universe Doctor.

There's no way this Doctor predates Hartnell, it simply contradicts too many *important* things that we've seen on screen already.

What they're *probably* going to do (and fuck me, I hate it.) is stick her in between 2 and 3.
We never actually see Troughton turn into Pertwee, and it's a widely held theory that 2 stuck around for longer than we see him onscreen in Wargames anyway.

What this doesn't explain, as you said, is how Tennant regenerated into Smith, because the Doctor should have been out of regenerations at that point.

For those curious, back when John Hurt was revealed, Sfdebris went over every possible gap he could fit into.

Doctor Who?

Doctor Who Reviews

sfdebris.com

Looks like we can just go through and guess where the new girl goes.

Also look what he posted today.

Doctor Who: The Talons of Weng-Chiang

Doctor Who Reviews

sfdebris.com

 

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

It's worth noting that she can't be pre-hartnell either because we saw the first doctor as a child before he was even a Time Lord. And he was 100% a white boy. Clara even touched his legs.

However, the new doctor refers to the TARDIS as a "ship", which is also something Moffat also pointed out and used as a plot point in his last episode, and was clearly meant to say she is one of the earliest doctors, so that reduces the possibility she is the Valeyard, I think.

Don't get me wrong, I like the valeyard theory... but in current year I doubt they would portray "the first black female doctor" as a villain.

 

[Cubanodun]

It's worth noting that she can't be pre-hartnell either because we saw the first doctor as a child before he was even a Time Lord. And he was 100% a white boy. Clara even touched his legs.

View attachment 1121377

However, the new doctor refers to the TARDIS as a "ship", which is also something Moffat also pointed out and used as a plot point in his last episode, and was clearly meant to say she is one of the earliest doctors, so that reduces the possibility she is the Valeyard, I think.


https://youtube.com/watch?v=5eVj_wrq8Kc:89

Don't get me wrong, I like the valeyard theory... but in current year I doubt they would portray "the first black female doctor" as a villain.

Easily a redemption arc of the valeyard just like the one Hurt had could be possible ,i mean if you read his lore in the time war he is a more extreme war doctor, last time he appears in lore is him fighting again the daleks in Grahv as the doctor, because the place is in a time lock he is doing this again and again, the eighth doctor tried to rescue him and almost succeeded it but the valeyard refused to leave because he wanted to keep fighting as the doctor instead or returning and getting his memory backs and become the valeyard again, the theory got force for his connections with the thirteen doctor that we have right now, it would be the day of the doctor all over again only that this time the black lady get redeemed

Edit: someone in discord was actually surprised of how uncaring this doctor was for the death of someone just like capaldi and was by her own fault

 

[UnKillFill]

Also look what he posted today.

Doctor Who: The Talons of Weng-Chiang

Doctor Who Reviews

sfdebris.com

Yes! I've been looking forward to that ever since I saw it was in his queue last week. What excellent timing as well, seeing as how I just watched those again.

Great review in my opinion, even though he spent just a little too much time harping on the racial elements, and unlike me he was (to be fair, understandably given his line of work) somewhat disturbed, rather than amused by them.

Chuck actually noted something about a line I mentioned in my mini-review in this thread a few pages ago, and I'm kicking myself over for apparently misunderstanding it.

Chang's line, "the bird has flown and one of us is yellow," A line I had taken to be part of the *character* (not the actor)'s "herro prease, me chineese," act that he put on several times throughout the episode where, if anything, he was mocking various people for making racist assumptions about him. In actuality, he was calling the Doctor a coward for walking out of the deathtrap early. (I'm embarassed to say I didn't even realize that Chang *saw* the Doctor leave, even though the audience obviously did. He was looking away at the time.) Maybe I was the racist all along...

What a great line though, even better than I previously thought it was.

That only makes me like Chang even more, and makes me think I should probably give Talons another rewatch when I get to it. (I've decided to give Tom Bakers entire run a fair go from the beginning.)

Also, I hadn't realized that Greel was originally supposed to be revealed as the Master at the end, but it makes total sense.

Oh well, at least Jago and Litefoot got to cross paths with the master eventually!

 

[Fluoxetine Man]

Ehh... I'm pretty sure even Moffat would have made the 50th Anniversary a crossover between 9, 10, and 11 if he could have.

The correct choice would be 8, 10 and 11.

 

[UnKillFill]

The correct choice would be 8, 10 and 11.

Oh man, you got my creative juices going on how *I* would have made done the 50th. It's already a doozy, and I keep getting more and more ideas. I'll share them tomorrow.

But as a sneak peek- You're correct, 8, 10, and 11 would have been a better choice than what we got. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

However, 9, 10, and 11 as the main trio, with 8 (and 12, as in more than just his eyebrows) there as well, would have been the main characters in *my* 50th... a "The 5 Doctors" Revival if you will, (this time with actually 5* Doctors.)

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

So what are your thoughts on the Dr. Who revival's pacificism? It was years since I last watched it but I remember it was done to a retarded degree, especially with the idea of wiping out the daleks being morally wrong.

 

[Fluoxetine Man]

As others have said, it would be fucken hilarious if Dr WHODAT turned out to be the Valyard. But she'll either be a future regeneration that got memory wiped, or a regeneration of the Metacrisis Doctor. (Bonus theory, she's the next regeneration of the Shalka Doctor).

Oh man, you got my creative juices going on how *I* would have made done the 50th. It's already a doozy, and I keep getting more and more ideas. I'll share them tomorrow.

If you want some good ol' Doctor crossovers you should read the 10 Doctors Webcomic. It's set after The Run away bride as the Tenth Doctor inexplicably crosses paths with his eight previous selves having all arrived at the same time along with their companions. They begin to investigate what's going on, why they've been brought to the Eye of Orion and why the eighth Doctor is missing.

 

[Overly Serious]

Chang's line, "the bird has flown and one of us is yellow," A line I had taken to be part of the *character* (not the actor)'s "herro prease, me chineese," act that he put on several times throughout the episode where, if anything, he was mocking various people for making racist assumptions about him. In actuality, he was calling the Doctor a coward for walking out of the deathtrap early. (I'm embarassed to say I didn't even realize that Chang *saw* the Doctor leave, even though the audience obviously did. He was looking away at the time.) Maybe I was the racist all along...

What a great line though, even better than I previously thought it was.

It was both a jibe at the Doctor sneaking off and a play on Chang's Chinese ethnicity (if not the actor's). It was a great line because aside from being a very clever play on words, Chang came up with it on the fly to recover from the Doctor messing up his act which shows what a professional he is. He doesn't let the Doctor spoil the show and in fact gets a laugh out of it. Oddly, because it's so casually petty and self-absorbed, Fourth's messing up some person's stage act actually annoys me far more than other darker acts. There's a special contempt I have for those who don't care about other's work.

Racial / ethnic / whatever acceptance tends to go through a few phases. It begins with not knowing each other, maybe distrust or antipathy. Then you tend to get jokes which defuse tensions. Then eventually you move on from jokes to just it not being a thing at all which people care about. So in that phase you get jokes like this in mainstream:

The point of these gags isn't that they're being racist. More the opposite - they're at the point where a different group is still perceived as a different group and making a joke about it to show that there doesn't have to be tension. They're saying "don't be hostile to these Black / Gay / Whatever persons, make a joke and then become friends". Then once the tension is at a societal level somewhat defused, the difference starts ceasing to be a difference until it reaches the point that to harp on about the difference itself is retrograde. Jokes like that aren't acceptable today, frankly aren't even particularly funny today, because the context has changed. Some people look back at this stuff and think it's racist. It is in the sense that it's making race a thing when it shouldn't be. But it's not in that it was part of a process that diminished racism over time. Much like Chang's "one of us is yellow".

Of course, the bleed over of US identity politics has undone a lot of this and yanked us into some weird regressive place where in some senses it's worse than it used to be because then we were at least walking towards a world that was colour and sexuality blind. Now not caring about someone's skin colour or orientation is itself attacked as bigotry. Identity Politics is leading us into a cul de sac which may be very hard to get out of because you can't joke about stuff, you can't say someone is the same as you if they cross some social identity like race or orientation. You have to praise their difference whereas what you should really do is not give a stuff about it if it doesn't matter. SJWs are dragging us backwards screaming.

So what are your thoughts on the Dr. Who revival's pacificism? It was years since I last watched it but I remember it was done to a exceptional degree, especially with the idea of wiping out the daleks being morally wrong.

Is it unique to the revival? It was Tom Baker that first talked about "have I the right" when it came to wiping out the Daleks. Earlier Doctors were less overt in their pacifism but it's (usually) been a part of the character barring Six bumping people into acid baths and such. I personally have always liked this aspect of the Doctor a lot. It's nice to have a role-model that doesn't solve things with fists and always seeks a better way. Other than the odd occasion where a writer completely fudges it to have their cake and eat it, it's been a strong plus to the character. And without it you also wouldn't have scenes like Five's "there should have been a better way" when finally forced to kill the sea devils, or Nine's confrontation with a Dalek after he believes they are all gone. Or Matt Smith's line about "and then I'll have to find a new name because I wont be The Doctor anymore". I really like it. It's a conscious choice he holds himself to and was deepened and reaffirmed after the Time War. Someone who has seen so much death and purposeless destruction - I could well see becoming a pacifist. Someone who even if he knows it's a dark world would rather risk his life, even die, than accept it that way. The Demon's Run arc had some good elements in it not least of which the Doctor dealing with seeing how "big" he had become, with learning that Doctor had come to mean "great warrior" on some worlds. After that, he made a conscious effort to become unnoticeable again. A behind the scenes fixer of things. At least until later writers couldn't resist making him this legendary central figure to the universe again.