Dr. Who

[UnKillFill]

If the Doctor has infinite regenerations and always has, then why did 11 originally die of old age (and he did, we saw his grave/remains) until Clara begged the time lords to give him more regenerations?

Even if you want to say the time lords were lying and put on a funny light show to further the lie, he still died of old age without it... which obviously shouldn't have happened.

 

[Shield Breaker]

The only way to fix this is for it to be a lie meant to bring about the Valeyard... somehow.

 

[Commander X]

It's gotten worse, instead of being about the adventures of the Doctor, the show is all about Revealing The Mysteries of the main character and how they tie in to everything personally and continuing to be turned, even more so somehow, into this universally important figure. They've decided to dispense with all the great mystery surrounding the Doctor and the Time Lords and just ruin the whole story for everyone, with a terrible backstory. Not every bit of a story, a setting, a series need to be explained unless you are one of those completest nerds who cannot rest until every single bit of backstory is laid out so it can be entered into a wiki. All mystery is gone now.

 

[Maamtis]

I have just become numb to it at this point. Its just become all too much.

I thought I was too until I heard about this. Now I'm pissed.

It's one thing to have a few crappy seasons with forced diversity Doctor. When it fails they can get a new showrunner and a new more traditional Doctor to right the ship. Chibnall now has made that impossible without some major retconning or an outright reboot and has also made the prospect of rewatching the old series unpalatable as well. It really seems like this guy had no clue about what made Doctor Who special. Before him there were these 12 guys who got to carry the mantle of the Doctor. It was considered an honour to play the role. Now not only has he diminished that by there having been countless incarnations of the Doctor but also his Doctor's achievement of being the first female Doctor.

 

[AnOminous]

Now not only has he diminished that by there having been countless incarnations of the Doctor but also his Doctor's achievement of being the first female Doctor.

First female Doctor and first Doctor to completely ruin the show.

 

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

The only way to fix this is for it to be a lie meant to bring about the Valeyard... somehow.

One thing I want to say is that I don't think many people realize how cold and calculated this move was.

I mean they gave zero fucks about canon, but politically they did give it A LOT of thought and used some dirty tricks to make this stick.

They knew the Doctor Ruth thing was risky, so Chibnall brought Captain Jack, and the Judoon, in the exact same episode. That wasn't a coincidence. This was actually a trap for people that were around the 9 and 10 doctor eras.

You can't question the canonicity of Ruth and this episode, without also rejecting Jack's cameo because it's part of the whole.

The fact that Chibnall did the timeless child retcon in the last episode of the season was also a dirty trick. You see, Chibnall is playing the long game here. It's not a coincidence there is a huge hiatus until Christmas/New Year. And neither is it a coincidence that The season finale ended with the doctor accepting the reveal quickly and moving on to an unrelated prison break episode as if nothing had happened.

Chibnall and the BBC are betting in that all the complaints will die out during the hiatus as people will inevitably stop talking about Doctor who once something else like the MCU gets people's minds away. If Chibnall is smart, and he isn't, most likely, the next episode won't mention the retcon at all to give more time to people to shallowing it in.

Once sufficient talk has passed, they will bring the retcon back hoping people will have just accepted it.

Had the retcon being in any episode, but the finale, the backlash and rating drop would've been huge, and they know it. That's why it happened at the very end. There's no way for the fans to retaliate that will affect them directly until, after, they hope people will have moved on.

There's also the usual dirty tricks: Retconning the pre-Hartnell doctors would also mean getting rid of Ruth, aka, the "first female black doctor", and you can expect racism accusations for anyone that tries.

I hope this plan of theirs fails. But tbh on my end, I'm done with the show unless they retcon this.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

The only way to fix this is for it to be a lie meant to bring about the Valeyard... somehow.

It would be hilarious of the Twelfth Doctor's monologue on the Bootstrap Paradox turns out to be foreshadowing: the Doctor (or possibly the Valeyard) acquires the super-regeneration power in the far future, regenerates into a little girl just in time to be found by the Gallifreyan explorer in the past. I realize we're getting into some Faction Paradox shit at this point, but hey, if you're gonna go nuts, might as well make use of it.

Frankly, if they agreed to just never mention this again and soft retcon it away later (think Voyager's infamous "Threshold") I think the series can get back to something resembling normal with this "Timeless Child" BS relegated to a bit of obscure trivia on the wiki (much like the Doctor being half-human.)

Who are the guys who did the Stargate TV show again? Fire Chibs, hire them, and just tell them "SG-1, but Doctor Who."

 

[Ponderous Pillock]

Who are the guys who did the Stargate TV show again? Fire Chibs, hire them, and just tell them "SG-1, but Doctor Who."

Please don't. Every enemy would be shirtless by the second episode.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Please don't. Every enemy would be shirtless by the second episode.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Besides, that show had continuity as a superpower because the people in charge gave a shit. That's worth a few shots of Judoon nips, amirite?

 

[Judge Holden]

Who are the guys who did the Stargate TV show again? Fire Chibs, hire them, and just tell them "SG-1, but Doctor Who."

Yeah...about that whole Stargate thing...

Science fiction at this point is basically dead in the west. Its rotting corpse being devoured by maggots is what we have seen on tv and in movies and in comics and in books for the past five or six years.

 

[AverageAnimeWatcher]

Frankly, if they agreed to just never mention this again and soft retcon it away later (think Voyager's infamous "Threshold") I think the series can get back to something resembling normal with this "Timeless Child" BS relegated to a bit of obscure trivia on the wiki (much like the Doctor being half-human.)

I wish we could just pretend it never happened, But, as I said in my other comment this was made hard to retcon by design.

The issue with that is that it isn't that simple as ignoring a comment made in a tv movie, most people didn't watch. You see, the doctor being half-human can easily be ignored/ explained away, because it doesn't affect anything beyond a single scene. It's isolated.

Point is, it would have to be a HARD retcon, like a limb amputation. We are way past the point, a simple band-aid, like a soft retcon, could fix this.

You would need to retcon Doctor Ruth, aka the first female black doctor (and with all the "racism" backlash that will come with it), the destruction of Gallifrey that was caused by the timeless child drama, Captain Jack's cameo, and all the episodes with the doctor dreaming about the timeless child, and literally every appearance of the newest master whose entire motivation so far was the timeless child retcon.

There's no easy way to do this without a very Hard retcon.

Science fiction at this point is basically dead in the west. Its rotting corpse being devoured by maggots has been whats on tv and in movies and in comics and in books for the past five or six years

I think the only sci-fi show I can recommend nowadays is the Orville. But, it's honestly depressing that the only way one of the big 3 sci-fi franchises could've survived was as a parody made by Seth Mcfarlane while the real deal sinks..

 

[TheImportantFart]

I think the most irritating thing about this is how Chibnall wants to have his cake and eat it. He’s introduced a major shake-up to the show’s history, one that he obviously knows will seriously piss people off on some level, but in the same breath he’s saying “None of this matter, nothing is going to change going forward. The Doctor’s still the same person.” and I’m already seeing that being used as a shield by people defending the Timeless Child.

Okay, well if none of it matters, why the fuck did you even bother doing it in the first place? If it’s not going to have a major effect on your plans for the series, and you’re not going to mine any dramatic potential that may come from it, then what was even the point of flushing the last 56 years down the toilet? Just because you could? Even if I liked this storyline, I’d still think that was a massive waste.

 

[Judge Holden]

I think the only sci-fi show I can recommend nowadays is the Orville. Otherwise yeah.

Even western vidya sci-fi is dying. Halo, Mass Effect, Fallout...you name it. The old franchises are either dead or zombified.

Only major refuge these days is Doom, with Warhammer 40k on the tabletop side looking ever more likely to fall given increasing hackfraud-woke interest in it and disney getting ever more claws in its IP

 

[Xiphias]

Eh, let's burn it all down and start again. I just wish there were more new shows and I want the people who fund them to catch on to "get woke, go broke".

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

Eh, let's burn it all down and start again. I just wish there were more new shows and I want the people who fund them to catch on to "get woke, go broke".

It's not gonna happen because mainstream shows are only made by people who live in a radicalized SJW bubble and who think the world ended the day the Orange Man got elected. Starving the Beast is the only tactic that seems to work, but it's taking a long time. As for why geek media was the first to be infiltrated, I would guess that's because sci-fi/fantasy fandoms are filled with soy-infused neotenites who want Gay Space Communism to give them UBI and robot girlfriends. These are the type of people most likely to embrace SJWism and other types of grievance-mongering because it's easier for them to believe that their problems are being caused by "systemic, institutional inequality" than to believe that they're being caused by laziness, bad choices, bad social engineering by Democrats, etc.

What is the first thing that religious zealots do when they take over a society and its church? Well, they rewrite the society's Holy Books to support the beliefs and actions of the conquerors. What are these woke remakes, if not the attempt to take a society's heroes and legends, its mythology; the works that reflect and affirm its values, and twist them to serve the interests of the SJW Overlords? White male heroes are obsolete/oppressive and need to be replaced by women and POCs. Women are perfect and powerful and awesome without having to struggle for it and anything they do to men is morally justified because women are trying to undo thousands of years of male oppression. A man can declare himself a woman without even having to dress like one. Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. It's God's Will the Current Year.

 

[Tragi-Chan]

I feel like the only way they could make this thing work is if they retconned the Master into the Timeless Child. I feel like it would be a better fit.

- The Master wants to rule the universe. Why? Well, maybe he knows he’s the best of the best.

- Why did he go rogue? Maybe because he was a genetically superior being who felt stifled by his society.

- Death and resurrection, even when it’s impossible, are the Master’s bag. Makes thematic sense if he has infinite regeneration. Maybe being the Timeless Child enables resurrection in circumstances where it wouldn’t normally be possible.

- Why is he such a raging psycho? Maybe life means nothing to you if you can’t ever die.

- Why did the Time Lords bring him back for the Time War? Same reason they resurrected Rassilon. He was a hugely important figure who they hoped would give them a strategic advantage.

- The Master’s history is way shadier than the Doctor’s. Much more room to play around without fucking continuity up.

- Why trick the Doctor into thinking it was her? He has a history of trying to get the Doctor on side and he likes fucking with people. Maybe he thinks confronted with the same revelation he had, she’ll go the same way. Maybe he wants her to understand his motives so she’ll leave him alone. Lots of possibilities.

 

[Comicsgeist]

I think the most irritating thing about this is how Chibnall wants to have his cake and eat it. He’s introduced a major shake-up to the show’s history, one that he obviously knows will seriously piss people off on some level, but in the same breath he’s saying “None of this matter, nothing is going to change going forward. The Doctor’s still the same person.” and I’m already seeing that being used as a shield by people defending the Timeless Child.

Okay, well if none of it matters, why the fuck did you even bother doing it in the first place? If it’s not going to have a major effect on your plans for the series, and you’re not going to mine any dramatic potential that may come from it, then what was even the point of flushing the last 56 years down the toilet? Just because you could? Even if I liked this storyline, I’d still think that was a massive waste.

Why was it done? Well partly as a 'fuck you' to the fans that complained because Chibs is a petty cunt.
Not only are you getting shoe-horned in diversity, we're going to shove it down your throat till you choke on it, seem to be the Beeb's attitude.
Secondly, I suspect that the reason for this is a ham-fisted attempt at laying the groundwork for a 'Dr Who cinematic universe'.
Think about it, prequels people! think of all the untold prequel stories that an unlimited amount of Doctor's gives you!

It's not gonna happen because mainstream shows are only made by people who live in a radicalized SJW bubble and who think the world ended the day the Orange Man got elected. Starving the Beast is the only tactic that seems to work, but it's taking a long time.

Here's the problem with 'starving the beast' when it comes to the BBC. They are licence fee funded and don't have to give a shit about ratings. They get their money anyway so they can burn Dr Who to the ground of they want and don't have to worry about advertisers or funding as long as the BBC backs that choice. Which it seems that they absolutely do.
Why are you getting this bullshit in everything, including a Pajeet David Copperfield and a Victorian London in Dr Who that looks like the UN?
It's a fucking BBC mandate. You literally will not get funding without meeting diversity quotas:

BBC - Diversity, portrayal and representation - Commissioning

Contacts and information about Television on-screen and off-screen portrayal form, Diamond (DIAMOND), the diversity code of practice, diversity data, silvermouse, the Children's on and off-screen portrayal form and Production Access Guide along with the diversity and inclusion development fund...

www.bbc.co.uk

The BBC is for everyone, and to reflect our audience in its entirety diversity, both on and off screen, must be at the heart of everything we do.
The BBC has pledged that by 2020 we will hardwire diversity into everything we do, both internally and for all those who make programmes for us.
We want an open dialogue with content makers, encouraging them to bring us a range of bold, challenging and entertaining ideas that reflect the whole of the UK and showcase the richness of our talent.

You can't even make a show about the court of Elizabeth I without having to shoe-horn some diversity in there, no matter how illogical, or you don't get your show made.

 

[BeboRefugee]

I feel like the only way they could make this thing work is if they retconned the Master into the Timeless Child. I feel like it would be a better fit.

- The Master wants to rule the universe. Why? Well, maybe he knows he’s the best of the best.

- Why did he go rogue? Maybe because he was a genetically superior being who felt stifled by his society.

- Death and resurrection, even when it’s impossible, are the Master’s bag. Makes thematic sense if he has infinite regeneration. Maybe being the Timeless Child enables resurrection in circumstances where it wouldn’t normally be possible.

- Why is he such a raging psycho? Maybe life means nothing to you if you can’t ever die.

- Why did the Time Lords bring him back for the Time War? Same reason they resurrected Rassilon. He was a hugely important figure who they hoped would give them a strategic advantage.

- The Master’s history is way shadier than the Doctor’s. Much more room to play around without fucking continuity up.

- Why trick the Doctor into thinking it was her? He has a history of trying to get the Doctor on side and he likes fucking with people. Maybe he thinks confronted with the same revelation he had, she’ll go the same way. Maybe he wants her to understand his motives so she’ll leave him alone. Lots of possibilities.

The whole Timeless Child plot needs scrapped. As long as it's there the themes of any character its attached to and Gallifrey itself are fundamentally broken.

If it was the Master, then he should be quoting Dagoth Ur by now; "I'm a God! How can you kill a God? What a grand and intoxicating innocence"
And what was all that about him and the Doctor growing up together about? Not only would this twist deprive us of a TimeLord villain (its been 15 years since the revival and the Rani is nowhere to be seen) but mean some crazed lunatic who doubles as the race's progenitor, for some reason is obsessed with the Doctor.
This is contrasted with what came before. The Doctor and the Master were a few of the more active Time Lords, but the entire race could be equally influential and volatile, they just have a culture to reign themselves in.

I don't understand why Chibnall thought this would be a good idea. If he dialled it back and said there was just a single cycle pre-Hartnell he would have divided the fanbase and still got to destroy the lore, but it would have been very much in Chibnall's favour compared to what we've got right now. RTD and Moffatt introduced some stupid shit into the lore, but it was always presented so sincerely that detractors had to give the retcons some degree of respect.
Compare and contrast Chibnall's reveals, with Missy. Moffatt spends 3 seasons giving Missy an arc and works hard to win the audience over. Missy was the start of the slippery slope, but also gave a perfect roadmap for how to get the audience to swallow jarring changes.
This comes down to Chibnall not only being a terrible writer, but also one that doesn't bring any compelling ideas to the table either. His only skill at the minute seems to be understanding how to wield fanservice in a way that can effectively run cover for his bad plotlines, that he otherwise can't manage to defend.

 

[Sinner's Sandwich]

I suspect that the reason for this is a ham-fisted attempt at laying the groundwork for a 'Dr Who cinematic universe'.

I would watch Dr. Who - Evil Dead edition.

 

[TheImportantFart]

Moffatt introduced some stupid shit into the lore, but it was always presented so sincerely that detractors had to give the retcons some degree of respect.

While this is true, I would seriously caution against praising Moffat too much at the moment because he’s sort of become the JK Rowling of Doctor Who i.e. now that his ticket’s up, he fills his time answering questions that nobody wanted answers to and said answers actually undercut stuff we already thought we knew.

Remember that amazing mini-episode “Night of the Doctor” where we finally got to see the end of the Eighth Doctor’s life? Remember the agony of the choice he had to make about what he would regenerate into with the help of the Sisterhood of Karn’s elixirs and eventually realising he had no choice but to become a warrior and leave the mantle of Doctor behind?

Well in the novelisation of Day of the Doctor, which he wrote, Steven Moffat thought it would be really funny to have it so the Sisterhood of Karn were trolling him the whole time. The goblet he drank actually contained lemonade and he never had a choice over how he was going to regenerate.

Well done Steven. That was about as funny as your hilarious decision to have the First Doctor be a sexist.