Dr. Who

[BeboRefugee]

Capaldi's last 3 episodes make up for everything iffy in Series 8 & 9, honestly.

Chibnall has tapped into so many progressive, requested concepts (elderly companions, racially diverse companions, non-white Timelords, female Doctors, secret Doctors, exploring Timelord lore, new monsters, re-imagined old monsters, ) and fucked up ALL OF THEM. It's impressive.
You'd nearly think he was intentionally trying to destroy the show. NOTHING is working. His stories suck and if the intention was to normalise a more diverse society it's clearly failed, since that same diversity is used as a shield against all criticism, and thus viewed as an extension of the rot.

What's weird is revival Who has always been diverse. Way, way more diverse than the general population. Black people are what? 2-3% of the population? And we've had plenty of black companions. Same with gay characters, doubly so with the spin-offs.
If Ecclestone's series and Torchwood came out today, I'd nearly be turned off by the diversity. They were just as diverse as Chibnall Who is, but on a subconscious level, I now associate flaunting a diverse cast with a show that isn't very entertaining. The politics was different 15 years ago, and honestly, RTD didn't need the boost since he understood how to make quality viewing in its own right.

 

[Judge Holden]

When exactly would you say it became a mercy killing? I'd almost say after Tennant. Some might say before, but "Midnight" was well worth having, one of the only Who episodes scary enough to have been classic Twilight Zone level.

IMO the first breaking point for me that made me generally lose interest was that fleshclone episode, and marked the first time I just straight up stopped bothering to regularly watch the show because of how tepid it and the past few episodes had been. I still occasionally checked in to see how shit was going after that but I never really made much of an effort.

The second breaking point was Asylum of the Daleks because of how much a wasted opportunity it was despite having had the potential to be amazing if written halfway competently and without the turgid relationship melodrama, and this is what utterly cooled any hype I had going forward that the show would impress me or try to do anything other than shallow sci-fi mediocrity.

The third and crucial breaking point that permanently alienated me from ever having an interest in the franchise was the fucking moon episode I so often bitch about, not just because it was the most embarrassing horseshit in the shows history*, but because it received wall to wall fawning five star reviews from the critic sphere to the confusion of everyone outside the media circlejerks, which is what brought me to the sad realisation that the show would never get better because the production team now knew they could shit out the most lazy and unwatchable trash imaginable and yet still received rave reviews so long as they used buzzwords and ticked checkboxes.

Ironically, all this shit happened before SJW garbage became the norm on the show, which helps vindicate my autistic insistence that the problems of lazy writing and shallow pandering so many associate with dumb wokebaiting shit were around for years before the woke societal tumor devoured everything

*up to that point atleast....

Capaldi's last 3 episodes make up for everything iffy in Series 8 & 9, honestly.

Literally the last piece of doctor who media I ever watched was a youtube clip of capaldi in his penultimate episode. He wasnt perfect but I actually could see him as the doctor for a few brief moments, and it makes me wonder how the show would have fared with a halfway decent writing team and a lead not desperately trying to be hip and kool from the getgo.

 

[TchPiKinmup]

When exactly would you say it became a mercy killing?

The RTD years were rough to get through (Jesus, those production values) but I was a solid watcher through to Capaldi. There was plenty of rot evident in earlier seasons, particularly how badly they whiffed the entire Amy Pond storyline. But the sci-fi elements were strong, the allegory not too obnoxious, and things were generally "fun."

I even liked some of series 8. However, every single story from the Capaldi era was leaden with left-field garbage, opening with the lesbian reptile lady (the Sillurian redesign was boring and lazy) with her box-muncher in tow and the Sontaran "nurse." Clara was forced down the audience's throats to such a degree that, even though I liked the actress and concept and a lot of the story beats, it was exhausting by the time Bill the Lesbian made her debut. "Kill the Moon" was when I gave up watching the show regularly (like a lot of people) but I still checked in from time to time. How could I not? I love the concept, I love the lore (sometimes the stupidest bits), I love the idea of a national TV icon being around for generations, etc.

Series 9 almost got me back! I loved the darkness of the Doctor's imprisonment, the direct involvement of the Time Lords, the (seeming) respect for the history of the show, it was all rather refreshing and exciting! Sure, they didn't do *anything* with the concept of superheroes (crappy Dr Mysterio episode) but maybe things were on the upswing!

But then Bill the Lesbian. Did you know that the lesbian Bill, the lesbian companion, was a lesbian? Yes, the first gay homosexual lesbian companion, that was Bill the lesbian. She only likes women, not men, which makes her a lesbian. You may not have noticed if you didn't watch the show but there was a prominent lesbian character, for whom being a lesbian wasn't just an important character trait, her homosexuality was her only note-worthy characteristic.

Bill the Lesbian (plus creepy, pasty, bald thing) pushed me over the edge. Sonic sunglasses, the Doctor shredding, and just episode after episode of uninspired stories ... We tried with the current Doctor but couldn't stomach her for very long.

 

[Quintex96]

When exactly would you say it became a mercy killing?

Name/Day of the Doctor would have been the perfect point to just end the show on a high note. After that it became the Clara show until she vastly overstayed her welcome and fucked off, by then the show was already wrecked by piss poor writing and it has only gotten worse. At this point Jodie Whittaker in addition to being the first woman Doctor (oh no, they alrady retconned that) might be the final person to portray the Doctor.

 

[feral cat #6385]

When exactly would you say it became a mercy killing? I'd almost say after Tennant. Some might say before, but "Midnight" was well worth having, one of the only Who episodes scary enough to have been classic Twilight Zone level.

After the 50th. They made the same mistake JNT made with Colin Baker by making a crotchety, unlikable Doctor. In current_year the doctor needs to be a young, somewhat attractive guy to hold the female audience to self inert as the companion and 'bate to the Doctor.

Meanwhile at Big Finish:

https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/revamped-doctor-who-audio-ranges-from-big-finish

The monthly releases are coming to an end next year with 275 being the final one. They're replacing this with periodical boxset releases for the individual doctors.

https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/tom-baker-and-david-tennant-are-out-of-time

Coming in August, Tom Baker and David Tennant team up to fight Nicholas Briggs and destroy Big Finish Productions before the BBC can by woke-ifying it

Too many box sets! Who can afford to buy all that shit? Yea I know there are ways to acquire it at not cost but someone must be buying all these ranges.

 

[Wisteria]

Before it came out, I was convinced that Series 5 was going to be the death of the modern run of the show. It didn't seem feasible for things to retain momentum with David Tennant leaving and practically every other aspect of the show changing in some way. I think that a lot of people don't quite appreciate just how much of a household name the show and its stars were during the RTD era.

I was pleasantly surprised by Series 5 when it aired, however. It had a couple of dud episodes, obviously, but so had every other series of the show (with the exception, in my opinion, of Series 1). Overall, despite its differences to what had come before it, it was still good. The Eleventh Doctor was entertaining, the companions had an interesting dynamic, and the mysteries of River Song and the Silence seemed like promising plot-threads for future episodes.

Then Series 6 happened. It was off to a good start with the Silence two-parter, and the episodes immediately after that were okay-ish. With the airing of A Good Man Goes to War and Let's Kill Hitler, however, it became incredibly clear that Moffat just sucked at long-term planning and story arcs. That was the first point, to me, at which the show truly and majorly jumped the shark, and it was further reinforced by the series finale.

I think that what's really got me about the show since then is how every time that I think that things can't get any worse, they inevitably find a way. It was around Series 8 and Series 9 that I actively started hoping for the show to die, for its own sake. Capaldi was literally the only good thing about those two series.

 

[UnKillFill]

After the 50th. They made the same mistake JNT made with Colin Baker by making a crotchety, unlikable Doctor. In current_year the doctor needs to be a young, somewhat attractive guy to hold the female audience to self inert as the companion and 'bate to the Doctor.

You clearly don't even know what you're talking about, but jeez is "Peter Capaldi and Colin Baker were terrible Doctors" a stupid fucking take. Capaldi was actually a great Doctor, but he was clearly failed by Moffat's shit writing. As for your hot take on Sixie...

Too many box sets! Who can afford to buy all that shit? Yea I know there are ways to acquire it at not cost but someone must be buying all these ranges.

Maybe you should have bought and listened to some of that "shit." Big Finish more than redeemed Colin Baker's Doctor ages ago. And in my opinion, the box sets are the best bits.

 

[Polyboros2]

Maybe you should have bought and listened to some of that "shit." Big Finish more than redeemed Colin Baker's Doctor ages ago. And in my opinion, the box sets are the best bits.

Colin Baker had a Big Finish where Laika return from space given intelligence by aliens, preforms surgeries on other animals in the cosmodrome to make them intelligent, has a revolutionary speech with chickens clucking in the back ground, the Doctor discovers a secret US moon base, and JFK is assassinated to keep him trapped on the moon.

I'm not saying Big Finish didn't redeem him but that was the most awful thing I've ever listened to.

 

[UnKillFill]

Colin Baker had a Big Finish where Laika return from space given intelligence by aliens, preforms surgeries on other animals and the cosmodrome to make them intelligence, has a revolutionary speech with chickens clucking in the back ground, the Dr discovers a secret US moon base, and JFK is assassinated to keep him trapped on the moon.

I'm not saying Big Finish didn't redeem him but that was the most awful thing I've ever listened to.

I obviously haven't heard every single Big Finish audio, for any Doctor. But they can't all be winners. I actually haven't heard the one you're talking about, what is it called? Because I actually want to hear that now...

 

[Polyboros2]

I obviously haven't heard every single Big Finish audio, for any Doctor. But they can't all be winners. I actually haven't heard the one you're talking about, what is it called? Because I actually want to hear that now...

Big Finish 179 - The Space Race

and I'm not trying to put your enjoyment of them down, I enjoyed a lot of the Paul McGann ones. It's just such a ridiculously outlandish bad episode that I don't often times got the opportunity to bring up.

 

[UnKillFill]

Big Finish 179 - The Space Race

and I'm not trying to put your enjoyment of them down, I enjoyed a lot of the Paul McGann ones. It's just such a ridiculously outlandish bad episode that I don't often times got the opportunity to bring up.

McGann is actually the other Doctor who got totally redeemed by Big Finish in my opinion. Your opinion is also totally valid though, not every Big Finish story is great... I still dare say that BF have a better track record than the show proper does these days, especially post Chibnall... Maybe even post Moffat if I'm being honest. -_-

 

[feral cat #6385]

You clearly don't even know what you're talking about, but jeez is "Peter Capaldi and Colin Baker were terrible Doctors" a stupid fucking take. Capaldi was actually a great Doctor, but he was clearly failed by Moffat's shit writing. As for your hot take on Sixie...


Maybe you should have bought and listened to some of that "shit." Big Finish more than redeemed Colin Baker's Doctor ages ago. And in my opinion, the box sets are the best bits.

Settle don't be a sperg.

Neither era was very good and there are parallels between them. Such as:

(1) An unlikable Doctor that wasn't as accessible as his predecessor. The bastard doctor characterization doesn't work outside the first season of Hartnell.​

(2) A showrunner who overstayed his time and was running on fumes.​

(3) Subpar writing.​

(4) Both actors took the fall. Colin was outright fired. It's implied Capaldi's departure wasn't voluntary.​

The show would have been better served by dumping Moffat after the 50th and bringing in someone new.

You are jumping to conclusions with the last bit. Big Finish Colin is Kino Colin. Every side character doesn't need a dedicated range. I don't understand how they make money with all these ranges. It's crazy.

 

[UnKillFill]

The show would have been better served by dumping Moffat after the 50th and bringing in someone new.

You should have just said this, I don't even disagree.

You are jumping to conclusions with the last bit. Big Finish Colin is Kino Colin. Every side character doesn't need a dedicated range. I don't understand how they make money with all these ranges. It's crazy.

You're right not *every* box set has been great, but I never said that... But when they hit the mark, they hit the mark. Jago and Litefoot is still literally my favorite piece of Doctor Who, and that was all almost entirely box sets.

 

[SnowBall]

Settle don't be a sperg.

Neither era was very good and there are parallels between them. Such as:

(1) An unlikable Doctor that wasn't as accessible as his predecessor. The bastard doctor characterization doesn't work outside the first season of Hartnell.​

(2) A showrunner who overstayed his time and was running on fumes.​

(3) Subpar writing.​

(4) Both actors took the fall. Colin was outright fired. It's implied Capaldi's departure wasn't voluntary.​

The show would have been better served by dumping Moffat after the 50th and bringing in someone new.

You are jumping to conclusions with the last bit. Big Finish Colin is Kino Colin. Every side character doesn't need a dedicated range. I don't understand how they make money with all these ranges. It's crazy.

Is there any evidence Capaldi’s exist wasnt voluntary? The only things that claim that are trash tabloids and the anti Moffat crowd who like to spread false rumors (Capaldi and Moffat arguing on set was a false rumor and Capaldi had to shut down people by telling them that he and Moffat never had any conflicts. They both jokingly claim that only thing they argued about was over which Cyberman design was the best and that was just them being old school fan geeks.) Also a good number of things like the Sonic Sunglasses and 12 playing the guitar were Capaldi’s ideas. I remember going to a special screening for an episode and there was commentary on it where Capaldi said he asked Moffat if he could have the Doctor play a guitar and Moffat put it in the script the next day. He came up with the idea of the sunglasses so that kids could cosplay the Doctor without needing expensive props.

I still think Tennant is overrated and Davies era who was mostly bad. Moffat isn’t perfect either but even his bad episodes were more watchable than the bad episodes from Davies. Maybe it is because I didn’t grow up with Davies’s era and have no nostalgia or attachment to it. Or just burnout from the Davies vs. Moffat slapfights.

 

[melty]

Then Series 6 happened. It was off to a good start with the Silence two-parter, and the episodes immediately after that were okay-ish. With the airing of A Good Man Goes to War and Let's Kill Hitler, however, it became incredibly clear that Moffat just sucked at long-term planning and story arcs. That was the first point, to me, at which the show truly and majorly jumped the shark, and it was further reinforced by the series finale.

This, this was pretty much when I got the sense that the show was going downhill, but I stuck around. The moon episode is what sealed it for me, and I switched to actively hating on the show. That terrible episode with the forests was around the same time and I stopped watching soon after that.

 

[TheImportantFart]

I still think Tennant is overrated and Davies era who was mostly bad. Moffat isn’t perfect either but even his bad episodes were more watchable than the bad episodes from Davies. Maybe it is because I didn’t grow up with Davies’s era and have no nostalgia or attachment to it. Or just burnout from the Davies vs. Moffat slapfights.

Agreed on Tennant being overrated, but I honestly think Davies is the best showrunner of the modern show. I know the bar for that is super fucking low, but something I don’t think people really appreciate these days, because the show’s been back for a while and has been a success until recently, is what a big ask bringing Doctor Who back was. The original series at the time was regarded by the public at large as a piece of kitschy nostalgia and a bit of a joke. A lot of old shows that have been updated for the 21st century have crashed and burned very quickly, so the fact Davies worked out a way to do it successfully is pretty amazing. Can you imagine if Chibnall had been the first showrunner? The show wouldn’t have made it past the first series.

Davies is also probably the most consistent showrunner. His story arcs weren’t anything special, but at least they weren’t a long buildup to a wet fart and episodes during his era generally hovered around the good to mediocre range with only the odd shit the bed moment (“Love and Monsters”, “Fear Her”) and apart from a few times, there was nothing that made me throw my hands up and ask “What the fuck were you thinking?” like I have been with more recent offerings.

Davies also did a lot of writing work behind the scenes that he doesn’t get credit for. Basically, unless a script was written by Steven Moffat (understandable at the time), Stephen Greenhorn (why?), Matthew Graham (why??) or Chris Chibnall (WHY???), he’d write the final draft. While this pins a few more stinkers on his report card, he also had more of a hand in the classics than some people think. There used to be an early draft of “Dalek” circulating the web and it shows just how much of an overhaul that script needed before it was ready for air. Same with “The Fires of Pompeii”. I’ve read extracts of James Moran’s original draft and it’s quite embarrassing.

Obviously he wasn’t perfect and he was a rather inconsistent writer himself. I will also freely admit that Series 1 of the new show is the first Doctor Who I ever watched, so this could be my nostalgia talking, but the longer the new series has been going, the more I’ve felt myself missing the bespectacled Welshman, and I was one of the people who was happy when he decided to leave and let Moffat take over (if only we’d known...).

 

[AnOminous]

Agreed on Tennant being overrated, but I honestly think Davies is the best showrunner of the modern show. I know the bar for that is super fucking low, but something I don’t think people really appreciate these days, because the show’s been back for a while and has been a success until recently, is what a big ask bringing Doctor Who back was. The original series at the time was regarded by the public at large as a piece of kitschy nostalgia and a bit of a joke. A lot of old shows that have been updated for the 21st century have crashed and burned very quickly, so the fact Davies worked out a way to do it successfully is pretty amazing. Can you imagine if Chibnall had been the first showrunner? The show wouldn’t have made it past the first series.

Imagine if he'd even been John Nathan-Turner, who more or less killed the show the first time around, going from Tom Baker to Peter Davison, Colin Baker as maybe the most unlikeable Doctor and then Sylvester McCoy. And that's not even getting into the whole being a predatory pederast thing.

 

[Buster O'Keefe]

Who wants to take my bet that, if DW ever returns, the chameleon circuit will mysteriously start working, because a police box is now 'problematic' due to ACAB shit?

 

[Flexo]

Agreed on Tennant being overrated, but I honestly think Davies is the best showrunner of the modern show. I know the bar for that is super fucking low, but something I don’t think people really appreciate these days, because the show’s been back for a while and has been a success until recently, is what a big ask bringing Doctor Who back was. The original series at the time was regarded by the public at large as a piece of kitschy nostalgia and a bit of a joke. A lot of old shows that have been updated for the 21st century have crashed and burned very quickly, so the fact Davies worked out a way to do it successfully is pretty amazing. Can you imagine if Chibnall had been the first showrunner? The show wouldn’t have made it past the first series.

Davies is also probably the most consistent showrunner. His story arcs weren’t anything special, but at least they weren’t a long buildup to a wet fart and episodes during his era generally hovered around the good to mediocre range with only the odd shit the bed moment (“Love and Monsters”, “Fear Her”) and apart from a few times, there was nothing that made me throw my hands up and ask “What the fuck were you thinking?” like I have been with more recent offerings.

Davies also did a lot of writing work behind the scenes that he doesn’t get credit for. Basically, unless a script was written by Steven Moffat (understandable at the time), Stephen Greenhorn (why?), Matthew Graham (why??) or Chris Chibnall (WHY???), he’d write the final draft. While this pins a few more stinkers on his report card, he also had more of a hand in the classics than some people think. There used to be an early draft of “Dalek” circulating the web and it shows just how much of an overhaul that script needed before it was ready for air. Same with “The Fires of Pompeii”. I’ve read extracts of James Moran’s original draft and it’s quite embarrassing.

Obviously he wasn’t perfect and he was a rather inconsistent writer himself. I will also freely admit that Series 1 of the new show is the first Doctor Who I ever watched, so this could be my nostalgia talking, but the longer the new series has been going, the more I’ve felt myself missing the bespectacled Welshman, and I was one of the people who was happy when he decided to leave and let Moffat take over (if only we’d known...).

Not arguing with you in general. Though I'll admit, I watched some of the new stuff first, found it "meh" and then went and watched the older stuff and enjoy that far more.

I kept wondering what what I'd see of RTD's run didn't always click with me (though I want to watch the 9th doc's run) until an SFDebris review finally helped it click. RTD would mock the idea of a "timelord killing gun in 4 parts" in the middle of a episode which culminates in the world's belief literally transforms the Doctor into Thor. Did you seriously just mock one idea as too silly even as you saved the day with an even sillier idea???

At least in the 3 doctors when the Docs defeated OMEGA with a recorder it was set up, the rules were clear, and even the silliness was kind of in spirit of the thing.

Moffett was slightly better at set ups and pay offs IMO as long as the episodes were kept short, top notch around a 2 parter. Though even then it would bug me when he would tell things that really needed to be shown. Heck I'm still not satisfied with his solution to the Time War.

 

[TheImportantFart]

Who wants to take my bet that, if DW ever returns, the chameleon circuit will mysteriously start working, because a police box is now 'problematic' due to ACAB shit?

You laugh, but a serious article was written talking about how the TARDIS being a police box was problematic for this very reason.