Drag shows are just the female equivalent of blackface minstrel shows, change my mind

[Getting tard comed]

Wrong. Minstrels didn't actually think they were Black, nor did they insist you must think they're really Black.
Also, I don't want all Minstrels dead, so that's another important difference.

Drag != troons. Very few if any drag queen think they are actual women. In fact the rise of troons have killed a lot of drag shows unfortunately, since despite them being degenerate(probably due to it actually) they were actually fun.

 

[gang weeder]

I get it just fine, I just think its dumb and that its acceptance is hypocritical given what I described in my OP.

Lol what a non response.

"what female stereotypes are there in a show based around men dressing and acting like women"?

Seriously? What kind of question is that? Are you gaslighting or just extremely dense?

One is allowed and one is banned because one reinforces traditional culture while the other subverts it. That's why.

In a way, drag is a form of clowning. It's also parody with respect. But perhaps most importantly, the leftys who get angriest about drag are always the worst people anyway.

There's an argument to be made that the minstrelsy in performing in drag is different from blackface minstrelsy in that in theory drag is a take on 51% of the population, while blackface minstrel shows are about an (at the time) persecuted minority with more mockery than satire, but that's just an incredibly rough formulation that I've come up with off the spot. I also think turning blackface into a hypersensitive, context-free issue makes the hypocrisy in accepting one but completely condemning the other more blatant. But these sorts of arguments come from people who will REEEEEEE about gender and race being social constructs, but defend to the death transgenderism but attack to the death transracialism.

So I think they're different, especially culturally, but you're right there's a great deal of hypocrisy from many of the people who defend drag because YAASS KWEEN SLAY but hate blackface because MUST BE RACIST BLACK PEOPLE TOLD ME. They're not deep thinkers.

They definitely are different in that blackface, from minstrel shows at least, is about making fun of black people while drag is about..... celebrating faggotry, I guess? The point isn't to make fun of women, we know that much at least. So they are different in the sense of having different cultural contexts around them, which does relate back to why one is allowed and the other not.

 

[Exigent Circumcisions]

Yes, a caricature is a caricature. What's the question?

 

[Certified_Autist]

How does OP feel about drag shows where all the actors are in blackface and sing minstrel-style songs?

Totally fine. My point as put forth in the OP is not to shit on minstrelry or drag, my point is it is hypocritical that one is considered far worse than the other when they are essentially the same concept.

@Explicitly Cacophonous

Yes, a caricature is a caricature. What's the question?

See above

@CivilianOfTheFandomWars

Is anything inherently wrong with a minstrel show?

No, see above

 

[1440p Curved Monitor]

You are 100% right, and if you take a look at the history of drag shows you will see that.

In the 19ths century minstrels shows were the shit. Actors first only mocked men, but then they decided to expand their marker and have caricatures of black women as well. Below is a white man in drag and blackface.

It was really well received, but the civil war ended, freed blacks were moving into cities, and it's a stupid idea to offended a potential costumer. So vaudeville shows, comedic acts with lots of variety that took inspiration from minstrel shows, started popping up and brought female impersonators.

This is Julian Eltinge, arguably the most successful female impersonator. Being a female impersonator was a straight white man's job. They had two personalities, one one and out out of drag. Homosexuality was looked down upon at this time and as time went on female impersonators became associated with gay men and sex work, so it fell out of fashion.
There were male impersonators of course, but they were not as popular and did not mock men as hard as women were mocked if I recall correctly. Drag in it current form is directly connected to minstrel shows and it arguably is closer to it than female impersonators because of how many African American Vernacular English mannerisms they adopt. One look at the phrases used on RPDR will show that. They want to be a sassy black women so bad and it grinds my gears because this isn't how black women act.

This information isnt explicitly stated on the internet but it's there: wikipedia mentions it. Almost all LGBT website that talks about drags history either fails to mention female impersonators or pretends that female impersonators didn't come from the minstrel's potrayal of black women.

 

[Iron Jaguar]

Drag != troons. Very few if any drag queen think they are actual women. In fact the rise of troons have killed a lot of drag shows unfortunately, since despite them being degenerate(probably due to it actually) they were actually fun.

They're still disgusting degenerates.

 

[Queen Elizabeth II]

You're not wrong OP.

Like how there were philosophers who asked the question why Rachel Dohlzal wasn't black if she said she was where we immediately accept Blaire White is female because they say they are, there are usually TERFs, under 30 danger hairs and trannies oddly enough for whom this is probably the one and only thing they agree on.

It's just a topic that hasn't become subject of a selective taboo in society. Totally arbitrary, lazily and inconsistently thought out because the rainbow people, of whom most of them aren't trannies, will flip out.

I fully expect however this to become unacceptable as the older LGB gens die off, as this is something iconic for them and something our tranny overlords tend to lose their minds over.

 

[Second-Hand Boat Supplies]

I'm super interested in hearing people's thoughts on this honestly as I've wondered about it myself. I'm going to be really charitable with how drag presents itself and think mostly about what they would argue. Otherwise it's just me saying 'this is unsettling, I don't like it,' which is just boring.

My impression with drag is that it's intention is to be purposefully offensive/transgressive. Minstrel show performers weren't saying "look at me breaking social norms on stage" They weren't saying "I'm supposed to be white but I'm smashing that idea by acting black" it was their commentary on Blacks. I think drag says "I am a man and I'm making a big show of deviating from that as a role." I believe drag supporters would say a drag queen is breaking out of their own social role while a minstrel show reinforces an existing hierarchy.

I think a better one to one comparison than minstrel shows would be Steve Martin in The Jerk. One of the running gags stems from him being raised by a rural Black family. The joke isn't 'look at how stupid these blacks are' but it's 'look at how stupid this guy is not realizing he's not in his intended social role.' Tropic Thunder too. Robert Downey Jr's character mocks the idea of an actor so up his own ass that he'd do blackface as art, his character isn't a mockery of Blacks in general.

I don't know how much I agree with this argument, but I think it's what a drag supporter would say.

 

[b0x]

 

[nosferatu]

I actually love how you’ve explained these art? forms as directly reflecting the culture we all sperg about here, race and gender. It makes so much sense and I had never thought about it from the perspective of what is acceptable in art as reflecting current cultural trends in this way. So, thank you.

I’ve been to a drag show once before and didn’t really find it “funny”. It really isn’t funny as much as it’s dramatic and engaging for that reason in my opinion. The show I attended was just a lot of bad makeup, lip singing, loud talking, sassy quips about sex with men, and pulling men from the audience to make them feel uncomfortable. I don’t hate drag but I can see how some woman could take offense. My triggered levels just might be a bit higher, luckily.

The comparison to minstrel shows is so spot-fucking-on though. The difference is our culture and response to it. Typically, performance art where people are being essentially mocked will end once the group of people being mocked stop laughing/attending. I wonder if women stopped going to drag, would that stop the art form in a few decades. Also, if drag stops and is seen as mocking women, would that change the opinion on the transgender debate in any way?