Final Fantasy XIV - Kiwi Free Company

[Aesthetic Liminal Pool]

The story of the last three expansions over and over is

A bit melodramatic and over the top but yeah, I agree some, there has been a shift in the writing. I think Endwalker was supposed to be a well-meaning message but with the lore being what it was and the Hydaelyn situation being what it was and the writing around her, it wound up coming off as being really, really strange and hypocritical if you cared about anyone else besides WoL and co.

After ShB was so well-received, just like with everything that seems to "work", CBU3 just repeats it over and over (see: patch release structure, story structure, and so on) -- now they are effectively stuck being able to only tell one story hoping to recapture the ShB lightning and the massive once-in-a-lifetime influx from WoW that slipped through their fingers.

At the time I enjoyed the game (started in 3.0) and ShB had cool things, but I noticed they were acting like they were wrapping everything up in the patches-- city-states and the beast tribes are now all super best friends Good Guy Alliance, tempering was fixed by magic piggies, Garlemald and everything that was built up over a decade gone up in flames offscreen, and so on. There were always things I found dumb about the story/lore/gameplay but it was dismissable and I could still have fun until EW when I quit. The community/playerbase also got noticeably worse in ShB with the Great Cambrian Mod Explosion and exponentially worse in EW. The setting's hollowed out, the gameplay's hollowed out, the playerbase is basically the Undead Asylum.

Still, I sometimes check in to see how XIV is doing (and a couple of my personal XIVcows), and I don't regret not buying DT from what I'm reading. Really, Squeenix as a whole just isn't worth my money at all.

 

[SnowBall]

I apologize for sounding harsh but I’m no longer interested in engaging with the community as a whole over the Sundering deal. It’s the same circular arguments being repeated over and over for the past four years now and nobody brings anything new to the table. The people who ruined what ever nuanced discussion you can have over are still going on to this day as well.

On to actual discussion the tempering curing pigs make more sense in the context of Alisae’s entire character arc going back as early as Coils. Losing her grandfather, Tesleen, and so many around her, her hatred of self sacrifices (I think I recall her scolding G’raha over that) and her desperation to save the Au’ra kid in ShB. Alisaie promises to help the little Kobold kid in HW and her arc in ShB was written to build up her discovering a cure. The payoff is that she can finally save her loved ones in at least one aspect. I’m personally not bothered by the pigs because the writing built it up over time instead of being a sudden ass pull.

As for beastmen they started the peace thing rolling with introducing beast tribe quests of the “friendly” ones and gradually developed from there. I feel like the beast tribes becoming friends with the Alliance is more effective when playing through their quests since a lot of it is background stuff.

For Garlemald while I agree it definitely got screwed over and deserved better (like an entire expansion pack) I never really felt was they were interesting to begin with, I’ve been playing the game since 1.0 and by the time Stormblood ended I was so sick of them because it was 9 years of the same formula of nations uniting to beat them up while holding hands with each other. I feel I’d be a lot more invested in them had I started during the ShB boom or later where I didn’t have to linger on their plot beats long and didn’t have a decade of Garlemald fatigue. In some way I can understand if the writers felt the same and wanted to move on from them. Garlemald and most EW plot beats feel completely like a victim of EW’s rushed pacing and not because of writers supposedly trying to stomp out the game’s setting due to whatever supposed vendetta they have against politics or conflicts that some people in the general community love to believe.

Several pages back I linked to an interview where Yoshi-P discusses the whole Elpis section and how they planned out EW. They apparently write two expansions at a time and I think Yoshi P said concepts like Dynamis were written during ShB. EW supposedly repeating its story beats are pretty much a coincidence. I don’t know if that is true for DT though as it has a completely new group of main writers.

At this point I don’t care what story beats they use or reuse or if they focus on politics or cosmic end of world shit as long as the writing is good. This game’s writing has never gone beyond PG rated in terms of maturity or depth or tone regardless of what expansions people glaze as the most mature or deep. ARR-base EW is one giant single homogenous story thread and a 300+ hour long FF title to me instead of a group of different writing eras.

 

[Not your Buddy Holly]

After ShB was so well-received, just like with everything that seems to "work", CBU3 just repeats it over and over

That's my honest takeaway from Shadowbringers; They can recover from a bad expac (Stormblood and now Dawntrail), but an amazing expac will kill them. It's like Obsidian and Fallout New Vegas; the company still literally dreaming about that game while shoveling out shit to the public, and should be told to stop dreaming of those bygone days and actually put effort into their games now.

 

[Aesthetic Liminal Pool]

I apologize for sounding harsh but I’m no longer interested in engaging with the community as a whole over the Sundering deal.

Sounds like a self-made problem. If I recall from checking on this thread you hadn't even finished Endwalker but seemed really invested over the "debate" that largely died down at that point.

On to actual discussion

Did it have to be back to back in the same expac? Came across as CBU3 clearing the board, or a terminally ill man putting his affairs in order before he dies.

At this point I don’t care what story beats they use or reuse or if they focus on politics or cosmic end of world shit as long as the writing is good.

Okay, so you don't mind the same story and love it all, unless it involves Garlemald, then you roll your eyes and groan. You got what you wanted.

what expansions people glaze as the most mature or deep.

Yeah, agreed, it was pretty tiresome seeing people act like ShB was their babby's first morally grey antagonist, and especially people cumming over EW hyping it up as the best story in all of jRPGs or media in general that saved them from roping themselves and that if you didn't like it you were simply too low IQ/media illterate to appreciate the deep themes.

Anyway, still think ShB, the pandemic, and its consequences damaged the game. It won't die, but it'll keep coasting along with HW/StB levels of population, with only superfans and people who log in out of ingrained habit being selected for.

I can only dream of someone releasing a StB-era and forked off from there private server, but SE would come down on that with a hammer and hard.

 

[SnowBall]

All I did was disagree with you there’s no need to get this mad over a post.

 

[Racial Slurs the Movie]

All I did was disagree with you there’s no need to get this mad over a post.

How dare you, you double nigger.

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

If we're starting up discussion on Endwalker MSQ again, let me just say this; main issue with the whole thing is that the devs tried to literally cram two expansions worth of plot into a single story, and it results in everything being undercooked severely. First one would've been dedicated entirely to dealing with Garlemald, the second would've been about the Final Days; devs wanted to strike while the iron was hot and rushed everything out the door in response.

As someone who's favorite expansion is Endwalker, I will openly state the devs mishandled the plot; everything involved the Ancients needed more proper explanation (ESPECIALLY Pandaemonium), Garlemald got shot in the knees, Ultima Thule is WAY too under-developed, etc. I get and agree with the message the devs were trying to push - that being about holding onto hope and learning to move on from tragedy - it's just that the story needed more time to properly cook. I'd have cut the moon rabbits, frankly.

Do you know if anything about the cause of the final days was planned? I can buy that Fandaniel was always meant to be involved since XIV post patch foreshadowing is predictable but stuff in SHB sounds directly contrarian to what we learn in EW. It's been a while since I checked.

Pretty sure there was quite a bit that got changed/cut during development, yeah; everything about Meteion and Ultima Thule comes right the fuck out of nowhere, and her sending that signal in from space actually goes directly against what Emet stated about the apocalypse in Shb (that it was caused by a "sound from beneath" if I remember correctly). I still stand by my theory that Pandaemonium was originally supposed to be a major plot point; again, the general location lines up exactly with Emet's comment, it would fit with the FF2 homage they were going with, and the location of it being a prison for all of the Ancient's most dangerous-but-useful concepts sounds like the perfect apocalypse trigger.

Hell, Athena would've been a perfect ending boss for the whole thing; with how the Ancients were a flawed but well-intentioned society, it would've been nice to got after the one truly evil bastard to end the whole thing off. Could've easily wrote her as being the cause for everything going wrong; obsession with godhood resulting in the misery of everyone else.

Instead, we get "local man ruins everything by giving sentient space probe suicidal depression... and the means to kill off the entire universe with no off switch".

 

[Xerxes IX]

Hell, Athena would've been a perfect ending boss for the whole thing; with how the Ancients were a flawed but well-intentioned society, it would've been nice to got after the one truly evil bastard to end the whole thing off. Could've easily wrote her as being the cause for everything going wrong; obsession with godhood resulting in the misery of everyone else.

Athena would have been a true representation of the flaws we're supposed to see in Ancient society, an example of the kind of sociopathic bastard created when you push their values to their limits. We should have seen somoene EVIL come out of their pursuit of perfection and playing god. It'd tie right into their Zodiark plan and how the Convocation stoops to sacrificing people for their created god to be able to save the world. Instead we get a depressed man upset because "they don't care about their creations, except they do as seen in the Elpis sidequest"

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

Athena would have been a true representation of the flaws we're supposed to see in Ancient society, an example of the kind of sociopathic bastard created when you push their values to their limits. We should have seen somoene EVIL come out of their pursuit of perfection and playing god. It'd tie right into their Zodiark plan and how the Convocation stoops to sacrificing people for their created god to be able to save the world. Instead we get a depressed man upset because "they don't care about their creations, except they do as seen in the Elpis sidequest"

Exactly. Granted, maybe the intention was to always hold the Pandaemonium plotline (or at least Athena) for the post-MSQ raid - like the Alexander raid in Heavensward or the Omega stuff in Stormblood - but with all of the raw potential and blatant foreshadowing that would've better lead up to it, the Palace of Hell namesake should've had SOME kind of presence in the actual plot. Probably did in the earlier drafts, only for it to get cut because the writers wanted to rush Endwalker out the door.

Hell, they could've kept Meteion if the devs wanted; have the bird get dragged down to Pandaemonium for further refinement or something, only for her powers to suddenly go haywire and cause the breakout. From there, have the prison be the bird's hideout, that we have to figure out how to break into in the modern-day and prevent Meteion from causing the Final Days all over again. If they wanted to keep Ultima Thule in the plot (given that Endwalker is a giant reference to FF4), the prison STILL could've factored into the plot; maybe something there caused Meteion to go out of control, cause the apocalypse and flee to the far corner of space, something.

From there, the post-MSQ could've been about conducting a proper investigation of the building, either in the past or present, and figuring out just what happened to cause the bird to go nuts. An investigation could've found that Athena did something to the Meteia in her attempts at achieving godhood; maybe Athena intentionally caused everything to go out of control for the sake of her "experiments", maybe Meteion simply panicked and/or lost control while trying to escape from the Ascian, I dunno.

All's I'm saying is, the devs REALLY could've and should've done more with this. We've got the Palace of Hell from Paradise Lost and the one genuinely evil Ascian regulated to side content, while a depressed man kills the universe for questionable reasons?

 

[laetiporus cincinnatus]

The official forum (and even r/ffxiv, surprisingly) are currently dunking on Square Enix — they finally listened to the community and split up the newest paid outfit into separate purchases, but you're still unable to buy only one cosmetic piece if that's all you want... and they also heavily increased the average price per piece.

The first item contains a hat and gloves, while the second and third items are similar to each other and include a top, bottom, and shoes. If you want one full set of Belt-leather cosmetics, it will cost you $24 in Freedom Bucks. If you decide that you want anything from the other core bundle, you will have to pay $42 in total. Don't know why they couldn't have done what they did with old sets and just have the two similar items in one attire set, rather than this weird fuckass Hebraic bundling that pleases nobody. Keep in mind that the money spent on this is going straight towards developing flops like Forspoken, gacha games that get cancelled after a year, and maybe another FF game that isn't FF14. If SE does happen to allocate more of this money back to FF14, you can bet your $18 chaps it's going towards nothing but braindead MSQ filler or nutbustingly-hard content that few people want to learn.

Compare this to some other set that released just two months ago, which was priced more fairly AND didn't look like generic Gatherer's gear AND had a working /visor command AND included an earring!

 

[Froggy Fresh Sextape]

First one would've been dedicated entirely to dealing with Garlemald, the second would've been about the Final Days; devs wanted to strike while the iron was hot and rushed everything out the door in response.

Considering FF14 development timelines they must have canned the Garlemald arc pretty early on into SHB development.

The Black Rose stuff was the world's wildest ass pull. I don't think anyone would have come up with that on their own unless they were forced to.

 

[Troon Whisperer]

Considering FF14 development timelines they must have canned the Garlemald arc pretty early on into SHB development.

SHB and EW were written together, so yeah they canned Garlemald very early on. Which sucks because I still maintain it would have been better if the first expansion was dealing with Garlemald, ending with us killing Zodiark, and then the patch series leading into the next expansion would have had all hell break lose as the final days restarts before that expansion deals with all the ancient stuff.

 

[Smug Chuckler]

but we wasted 1/6 of an expansion with fucking moon bunnies

 

[Baguette Child]

SHB and EW were written together, so yeah they canned Garlemald very early on. Which sucks because I still maintain it would have been better if the first expansion was dealing with Garlemald, ending with us killing Zodiark, and then the patch series leading into the next expansion would have had all hell break lose as the final days restarts before that expansion deals with all the ancient stuff.

It remains my biggest peeve with EW, honestly, that we never got to actually see Garlemald in its prime. We should have gotten scenes with the full might and awe of the capitol region of the world's great conqueror before the telophoroi fucked it all over offscreen.

What we do get in Garlemald feels like someone else's sloppy seconds; Like all the most interesting shit that happened there was basically already over and we were just there to finish off the job.

but we wasted 1/6 of an expansion with fucking moon bunnies

Won't lie, I enjoyed the bunnies and their freakout upon realizing that millenia of preparations were basically useless

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

Considering FF14 development timelines they must have canned the Garlemald arc pretty early on into SHB development.

The Black Rose stuff was the world's wildest ass pull. I don't think anyone would have come up with that on their own unless they were forced to.

I mean... given the lore of there being co-current Aether disasters on separate Shards coinciding with a Rejoining, it's safe to say the devs needed to come up with something. That being said, the usage of chemical weapons... is a bit out there.

SHB and EW were written together, so yeah they canned Garlemald very early on. Which sucks because I still maintain it would have been better if the first expansion was dealing with Garlemald, ending with us killing Zodiark, and then the patch series leading into the next expansion would have had all hell break lose as the final days restarts before that expansion deals with all the ancient stuff.

It remains my biggest peeve with EW, honestly, that we never got to actually see Garlemald in its prime. We should have gotten scenes with the full might and awe of the capitol region of the world's great conqueror before the telophoroi fucked it all over offscreen.

What we do get in Garlemald feels like someone else's sloppy seconds; Like all the most interesting shit that happened there was basically already over and we were just there to finish off the job.

I would've loved an expansion dedicated to going after Garlemald on their home turf; seriously, they were the main antagonists and a major cat's paw for the Ascians for pretty much the entire cycle of the game, and... they basically just got thrown away.

but we wasted 1/6 of an expansion with fucking moon bunnies

Won't lie, I enjoyed the bunnies and their freakout upon realizing that millenia of preparations were basically useless

I mean, the bunnies themselves were alright, issue is that they took up just a bit too much time away from the other, more undercooked plotlines (Garlemald and Elpis) and often resulted in a wildly inconsistent tone. Don't hate them, they're adorable, but they were just a bit too overused sadly.

EDIT: Added some things.

 

[Racial Slurs the Movie]

Palace of Hell namesake should've had SOME kind of presence in the actual plot. Probably did in the earlier drafts, only for it to get cut because the writers wanted to rush Endwalker out the door.

The reason it's called that is because the two halves of the Emperor the BBEG in 2 where Mateus and Lahabrea. Lahabrea was the one who took over hell while Mateus took over heaven.

This raid focused on La-Hee Breyer so they named it after something connected in the wider FF universe.

This is how they do most their references.

 

[Xerxes IX]

Hell, they could've kept Meteion if the devs wanted; have the bird get dragged down to Pandaemonium for further refinement or something, only for her powers to suddenly go haywire and cause the breakout.

Shit, Fandaniel going postal would have made more sense if Pandaemonium had directly fucked with Hermes' creation like that.

 

[King Of Braves]

but we wasted 1/6 of an expansion with fucking moon bunnies

Hey those moon bunnies turned into one of the most emotional beast tribe storylines to date.

 

[Froggy Fresh Sextape]

It remains my biggest peeve with EW, honestly, that we never got to actually see Garlemald in its prime. We should have gotten scenes with the full might and awe of the capitol region of the world's great conqueror before the telophoroi fucked it all over offscreen.

Especially because the SB postpatch quests were very obviously leading up to a full assault on Garlemald and got you hyped for it. No, come play with the crystal catboy while a bunch of stuff happens offscreen.

I suppose the devs may have thought that players were tired of the Empire after SB

e: also I'm leveling jobs and it's fun how I can immediately tell who's botting because they don't get hit by anything. That bridge thing the final boss of Dohn Mheg pulls? Yeah they just run across that shit like a fucking SWAT team.

 

[Well Intentioned]

I suppose the devs may have thought that players were tired of the Empire after SB

It is my understanding the devs were getting burnt out on the Empire and they wanted to shift gears a bit as a result. Which...understandable but don't pull a bait and switch like that.