Forms of government and political systems.

Given the proper circumstances, a two-party system can be as meaningless a sham as a single-party system.

I'm always amazed by people who claim that bipartisan cooperation between moderates of both parties is the solution to America's problems, when so many of the things people complain about are the product of bipartisan moderate cooperation.
 
I'm no longer interested in addressing anything you have to say.

You were saying?

I don't have a problem with gay marriage,

Does this mean you admit that positive change occurred in your lifetime?

and the legal status of marijuana is nebulous at best. While a few states do allow it to some degree, it's still federally illegal,

It used to be entirely illegal. Does this mean you admit that positive change occurred in your lifetime?

and there have been many cases of state-legal dispensaries getting raided by the DEA for various reasons.

Maybe you should follow the example of your "contemporaries" in this thread by citing sources. Again, when you make claims like these, the burden of proof is on you.

Just because a not-white person is in office doesn't mean he's going to be a good president, though.

That is not the point, a black man could not have ever been president prior to then. Exhibit A;
jesse_jackson.jpg


Personally, I don't understand America's obsession with race, but that's just me.

What's slavery? What's the Civil War? What's segregation? What's Jim Crow laws? What's the Chinese Exclusion Act? What's the Trail of Tears? What's Woman's Suffrage?

What's history?

Maybe one day, it won't be such a big deal, but I don't think that's likely to happen for some time.

We have had a black person as president after two centuries of ostracization of their race, something which occurred during the lifetimes of many people who were hosed for trying to drink from whitey's fountain.

It's nice to see you're actually attempting to make a decent post though.

It's nice to see you're still not trying but please, by all means, rub in that salt. It's good for disinfecting wounds.
 
  • Agree
  • Winner
Reactions: Marvin and Adamska
That doesn't explain why most of the time they don't bother in trying for local elections where votes have the most impact.

How do you know that there's a big core of potential third partiers? The three common identifiers are Democrat, Republican, and Independent. And while Independents are among the biggest in group size, they often just lean slightly one way or another.

While there is a substantial number of Independents that would lean to one of the two major parties, there are quite a few who would support a third party candidate if they feel there was a substantial chance of that person winning:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/60-of-americans-want-a-third-party-candidate-for-2016.html

That doesn't explain why most of the time they don't bother in trying for local elections where votes have the most impact.

Topkek, that's pure pathos right there and blatantly wrong:

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Democrat_vs_Republican

In theory, they're supposed to be different, but it seems in practice, it often doesn't matter which party gets its people in office, as the results do not necessarily differ all that much. @AnOminous addresses this pretty well in his latest post. It does tie into lobbying a bit, as he states.

There are lobbyists who focus on environmental health (EarthJustice) and human rights (Human Rights Watch), both of which would hardly be considered evil things. And they often serve as policy advisors due to having knowledge about the topic they represent, which takes a load off of the busy government official who needs to juggle so many topics and issues at once.

Lobbying isn't inherently bad or evil, and not everything they fight for is necessarily bad in itself, either. There is a reason for them, and they do have a right to exist, however, sometimes it seems they have way too much power and influence over things to the point that they often end up skewing results to the point where even small changes are next to impossible to get through.

Congrats; they were indeed very anti-corporatism due to their experiences with and seeing the worst cases of this in the form of the East India Company and also despised the Massachussetts Bay Company, which controlled the economy of New England pre-revolution. I would note however that they also supported enterprise however, since many of them were entrepreneurs in one way or another. They also had a thing for voting by wealth. They were pro-business as a whole, but not a big fan of powerful and long-lasting corporations.

I'm sure they were pro-business to a degree, but I think having corporate entities hold massive influence over elected officials is not exactly the outcome they would have hoped for. If they weren't fans of powerful, long-lasting corporations, I doubt they would have favored the current model of pro-big business lobbying that's around now.

One pretty common practice for the largest of the corporate donors is to use their "speech" to support the two major party candidates, because their money is of the opinion, apparently, that both candidates should be elected.

This buys an opinion on issues related to that donor, who can always pull support from one candidate or the other.

If the Democratic and Republican candidate have identical "opinions" on a legislative issue, then the "voter's will" doesn't matter in the slightest. If you vote for a Democrat, you will get legislation favoring XYZ Corporation. If you vote for a Republican, you will get legislation favoring XYZ Corporation.

Part of the entire concept of democracy is that voters, through the electoral system, can turn the public will into actual government policy outcomes.

If the outcomes are the same regardless of so-called public will, then elections are meaningless, at least with respect to those issues.

More and more of those issues are shared by both parties, who will not rock the boat and oppose the people who pay for them to have their jobs.

Given the proper circumstances, a two-party system can be as meaningless a sham as a single-party system.

Very well said, as I stated before, while lobbyists do have a right to exist, and not everything they do is inherently bad, I feel that they have way too much power at times. It certainly helps contribute to feelings of political alienation in the general public.
 
While there is a substantial number of Independents that would lean to one of the two major parties, there are quite a few who would support a third party candidate if they feel there was a substantial chance of that person winning:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/10/60-of-americans-want-a-third-party-candidate-for-2016.html
I seem to be having significant issues loading this page. Not joking. The cached version seems to be very speculative, as the author is anonymous, all of the statements and citations seem to be self-referential, and it all comes off as speculative twaddle. Its base source seems to be in gallup, and I'm leery on polls mostly due to their limited nature, the chance of skewing, and the fact that the results can both vary based on question framing AND be ripped from other polls since they're lazy fucks who like to keep politics interesting and sell.
In theory, they're supposed to be different, but it seems in practice, it often doesn't matter which party gets its people in office, as the results do not necessarily differ all that much. @AnOminous addresses this pretty well in his latest post. It does tie into lobbying a bit, as he states.
No, he addresses a common practice held by the largest of companies and relating to specific issues relating to that company. Is it cynical? Yes. Does it strip some element of difference? Again, yes. But this primarily applies to only some elements, as opposed to all of them.
Lobbying isn't inherently bad or evil, and not everything they fight for is necessarily bad in itself, either. There is a reason for them, and they do have a right to exist, however, sometimes it seems they have way too much power and influence over things to the point that they often end up skewing results to the point where even small changes are next to impossible to get through.
I'd rather change take more time than needed than wind up like California's nightmare of a shitfuck electoral situation.
I'm sure they were pro-business to a degree, but I think having corporate entities hold massive influence over elected officials is not exactly the outcome they would have hoped for. If they weren't fans of powerful, long-lasting corporations, I doubt they would have favored the current model of pro-big business lobbying that's around now.
Oh no, they'd want charters that were set for a set number of years before it could be renewed, and have it get limited to one commodity and unable to have stakes in other corporations. They'd be rolling in their graves, especially Jefferson; he hated the fuck out of centralized power.
Very well said, as I stated before, while lobbyists do have a right to exist, and not everything they do is inherently bad, I feel that they have way too much power at times. It certainly helps contribute to feelings of political alienation in the general public.
I feel it's more out of the population's ignorance than a fault on the lobbyist IMO.
 
Does this mean you admit that positive change occurred in your lifetime?

It hasn't happened because of the electoral system, no. Nationwide legalization of gay marriage was brought about by a Supreme Court decision, not by a change in the electoral system, which I was addressing with that quote. I don't see how it can really be a bad thing, I'm not gay myself, but I have friends who are, and the way they choose to live doesn't affect me. The government should stay out of consensual personal affairs, anyway.

It used to be entirely illegal. Does this mean you admit that positive change occurred in your lifetime?

I don't necessarily think legalizing pot for recreational use is necessarily a good thing for society, but there's a lot of contradictory and confusing laws in regards to the legal status of cannabis. Medical use is kind of a no-brainer, but as far as recreational use is concerned, that's kind of a gray area in my book. Society has enough problems with alcohol and tobacco, while I don't think people should be jailed over a plant, I don't necessarily throwing another legal substance into the mix is going to help anything. Of course, people are probably going to do it anyway, might as well at least decriminalize it.

State-legal dispensaries have gotten raided several times over the past few years, here's one example.

http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/07/feds-raid-pot-dispenaries-washington-where-drug-legal/67585/

That is not the point, a black man could not have ever been president prior to then. Exhibit A;
jesse_jackson.jpg

Did Jesse Jackson actually run for president? I know Al Sharpton competed for the Democratic primary on at least one occasion. In 2004, if I remember correctly. While he did get a substantial following, he ultimately wouldn't have succeeded even if he did win the primary, due to W having a solid foundation. Second-term elections almost invariably favor the incumbent anyway.

I understand history pretty well, I'm just rather sick of hearing about race all the time. Unfortunately, it's all we Americans ever talk about. And while being able to put a black man into political office, let alone the presidency, does offer some degree of hope, race relations in this country are still bumpy at best. Some say Canada is more tolerant, but unfortunately, it seems like race is a flashpoint even in a land many people think of as progressive and tolerant.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/

As far as third party supporters go, there's quite a few who potentially would.

http://www.usnews.com/news/the-repo...making-room-for-a-third-party-in-us-elections
http://www.gallup.com/poll/177284/americans-continue-say-third-political-party-needed.aspx
 
I seem to be having significant issues loading this page. Not joking. The cached version seems to be very speculative, as the author is anonymous, all of the statements and citations seem to be self-referential, and it all comes off as speculative twaddle. Its base source seems to be in gallup, and I'm leery on polls mostly due to their limited nature, the chance of skewing, and the fact that the results can both vary based on question framing AND be ripped from other polls since they're lazy fucks who like to keep politics interesting and sell.

No, he addresses a common practice held by the largest of companies and relating to specific issues relating to that company. Is it cynical? Yes. Does it strip some element of difference? Again, yes. But this primarily applies to only some elements, as opposed to all of them.

I'd rather change take more time than needed than wind up like California's nightmare of a shitfuck electoral situation.

Oh no, they'd want charters that were set for a set number of years before it could be renewed, and have it get limited to one commodity and unable to have stakes in other corporations. They'd be rolling in their graves, especially Jefferson; he hated the fuck out of centralized power.

I feel it's more out of the population's ignorance than a fault on the lobbyist IMO.

While Gallup polls are not perfect sources of information and subject to being skewed by various factors (sample size, etc), it does at least show there are some people who would support a third party, if it was believed that there was a reasonable chance of winning.

Theodore Roosevelt actually came in second on a third-party ticket, 27% of the vote, or 4.1 million. So it is possible for a third party to wield influence if enough people believe it has a chance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_(United_States,_1912)#Election_of_1912

AnOminous does a good job of illustrating what I'm talking about, though, sure, I'm not necessarily saying the parties are 100% the same all over, but the results often are, given the circumstances. It's certainly a cynical and alienating viewpoint, but nonetheless it's how things actually are.

California's never not had serious problems with management all over. A dominant party system helps nothing, and with years of mismanagement of various resources going on for years, it's not going to be an easy way out.

http://www.hjta.org/california-commentary/government-covers-mismanagement-higher-taxes/

Regardless of the source, this kind of thing's been going on for over at least a decade. And it's not just taxes, either, mismanagement has led to various droughts, forest fires, and power brownouts. Not even the Governator could tame this mess. But perhaps positive change taking too long is an acceptable trade-off.

The founders also disfavored political parties, especially George Washington, who absolutely despised them. Also, one of the things that they would not have liked are the existence of trusts and conglomerates that have stakes in multiple and often unrelated industries. The government does keep a close eye on them, but they are often difficult to break up when they get too powerful, ie the Microsoft anti-trust suits. One example of a trust from history is Standard Oil, which controlled the vast majority of the industry towards the late 19th and early 20th century. Theodore Roosevelt, who wasn't anti-business necessarily, did manage to break it up into a few smaller entities to remove political influence and bring back competition in the industry.

The ignorance of the public doesn't help anything, but I still think lobbying can exert a little too much influence at times. A well-informed public is necessary to a functioning democracy/republic/parliament/what-have-you, but unfortunately, I don't think Americans are necessarily well-informed, or even care to be. Call me cynical if you will.
 
It hasn't happened because of the electoral system, no. Nationwide legalization of gay marriage was brought about by a Supreme Court decision, not by a change in the electoral system, which I was addressing with that quote. I don't see how it can really be a bad thing, I'm not gay myself, but I have

friends who are, and the way they choose to live doesn't affect me. The government should stay out of consensual personal affairs, anyway.

55039027.jpg


Did Jesse Jackson actually run for president?

Yes. Yes he did. How do you not know this?

Unfortunately, it's all we Americans ever talk about.

No, it isn't.

And while being able to put a black man into political office, let alone the presidency, does offer some degree of hope, race relations in this country are still bumpy at best.

It is, still, however, a positive change in your lifetime, yes?
 
  • Agree
  • Like
Reactions: Marvin and Bernard
55039027.jpg


Yes. Yes he did. How do you not know this?

No, it isn't.

It is, still, however, a positive change in your lifetime, yes?

-In what manner do you believe I am moving the goalposts?

-It's been a while, forgive me for not knowing about the 1988 primaries right off the top of my head. He never made it past the primary, though. Few people do, though, to be fair.

-It seems to be a rather frequent theme, regardless of whatever semblance of social progress may have happened in the past few decades.

-It's hard to say whether the president's policies, in and of themselves, are a good thing, but the fact that skin color isn't necessarily a barrier anymore is a step in the right direction. Hopefully that will remain so.

OK well, maybe I'm not perfect, but no one is 100% right on everything, all the time.
 
I've edited a couple posts to remove personal attacks. @MarvinTheParanoidAndroid there is no need to directly insult someone who is disagreeing with you even if you think their opinions or points are stupid.

@Duke Nukem a few of your posts are borderline aswell.

Going forward please refrain from insulting each other or I will thread ban.

On Topic: I have never read it but this study came out a few years ago regarding the effect of lobbying: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=/PPS/PPS12_03/S1537592714001595a.pdf&code=b18898d500a2c24090aecae20ceafeb1


I only ever read the summary but the gist of it was that when lobbyists and voters disagree lobbyists tend to win out- which is obviously extremely concerning. As I say though I never read the thing and their methodology may be faulty/the summary I read may have been less than honest.
 
I've edited a couple posts to remove personal attacks. @MarvinTheParanoidAndroid there is no need to directly insult someone who is disagreeing with you even if you think their opinions or points are stupid.

@Duke Nukem a few of your posts are borderline aswell.

Going forward please refrain from insulting each other or I will thread ban.

On Topic: I have never read it but this study came out a few years ago regarding the effect of lobbying: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=/PPS/PPS12_03/S1537592714001595a.pdf&code=b18898d500a2c24090aecae20ceafeb1


I only ever read the summary but the gist of it was that when lobbyists and voters disagree lobbyists tend to win out- which is obviously extremely concerning. As I say though I never read the thing and their methodology may be faulty/the summary I read may have been less than honest.

I understand, I've tried not to be too harsh, but it's hard not to lose your shit when your opponent resorts to name-calling and spamming negative ratings in an attempt to bait you instead of addressing one's points. Everyone else, even when they don't agree, has been generally civil about it. Sure, I may not be perfect about that stuff at times, but in the absence of the above stated items, I'm willing to at least hear people out.

There's plenty of good information about how lobbying affects the legislative process, but regardless of whether the overall effects are good or bad, it is quite concerning when someone like a corporate lobbying group who, for example, opposes reform in medical insurance or the pricing points of pharmaceuticals, holds sway over a senator who promised to fight for fairer prices in these things more than the people who put him in office.

It's stuff like this that makes people feel like they have no real say in how things are actually run. Sure, the report may not be perfect, but there are others out there that reach a similar conclusion.
 
It hasn't happened because of the electoral system, no. Nationwide legalization of gay marriage was brought about by a Supreme Court decision, not by a change in the electoral system, which I was addressing with that quote. I don't see how it can really be a bad thing, I'm not gay myself, but I have friends who are, and the way they choose to live doesn't affect me. The government should stay out of consensual personal affairs, anyway.
You complain about a lack of change in your lifetime; when given examples of these changes, you maneuver the goalposts to state essentially the same thing that was refuted only using different conditions. That's not exactly a style of argument I approve of.
Did Jesse Jackson actually run for president? I know Al Sharpton competed for the Democratic primary on at least one occasion. In 2004, if I remember correctly. While he did get a substantial following, he ultimately wouldn't have succeeded even if he did win the primary, due to W having a solid foundation. Second-term elections almost invariably favor the incumbent anyway.
Yes: 1988. He got blasted for weird remarks over Jews. As for dubya and his chances, he actually came pretty close for an incumbent being unseated, and this is still with some of that "rally behind the flag" element that 9/11 and Iraqi Freedom netted him.
I understand history pretty well, I'm just rather sick of hearing about race all the time. Unfortunately, it's all we Americans ever talk about.
It's a big part of our national psyche, so of course race relations are a major topic. I mean fuck, we have people who still can remember being told "we don't serve your kind here". Still kind of a big deal because of it.
Traditionally 3rd parties do the worst out of any of the parties, probably because most if not all of them are vehicles for essentially sore losers. The four way race in 1860 was due to the Democrats disagreeing on who to front and a compromise bloc headed by John Bell. The 1912 elections was due to Roosevelt essentially being pissed that he didn't get the nod. 1924 was Robert M. Follete creating a vehicle to get elected. Dixiecrats and George Wallace did it to express annoyance that the Dems were being nicer to not-white people. And most recently, Perot kind of did it on a lark and backed out at one point.
While Gallup polls are not perfect sources of information and subject to being skewed by various factors (sample size, etc), it does at least show there are some people who would support a third party, if it was believed that there was a reasonable chance of winning.
The only poll I remotely bother to look to is Nate Silver's predictions, mainly because he's not prone to rip off other polls to create his own. That and he actually has a decent track record, unlike Mr. Celeste and Washington Blog.
Theodore Roosevelt actually came in second on a third-party ticket, 27% of the vote, or 4.1 million. So it is possible for a third party to wield influence if enough people believe it has a chance.
And losing that election basically murdered said party since Teddy went back into the fold and it allowed Woodrow Wilson into office. So yeah, 3rd parties often serve as spoilers. When people say they will, the often change their mind I've noticed. Even the really good 3rd party runs experience a notable drop-off in numbers.
AnOminous does a good job of illustrating what I'm talking about, though, sure, I'm not necessarily saying the parties are 100% the same all over, but the results often are, given the circumstances. It's certainly a cynical and alienating viewpoint, but nonetheless it's how things actually are.
I seem to recall him mostly talking about how the ultra-big corporations do it as a means to get words in, and that it only mitigated that element and may be getting more and more prevalent. I don't see this surety you're trying to state is there.
California's never not had serious problems with management all over. A dominant party system helps nothing, and with years of mismanagement of various resources going on for years, it's not going to be an easy way out.
All due to the fact that people are flighty and often go "it won't effect me" like idiots. Really this is more of a sign that direct democracy fucks things up than a sign of needing a third party element to me.
Regardless of the source, this kind of thing's been going on for over at least a decade. And it's not just taxes, either, mismanagement has led to various droughts, forest fires, and power brownouts. Not even the Governator could tame this mess. But perhaps positive change taking too long is an acceptable trade-off.
Arnie as a decent governor?

He was not only in the running as one of the worst governors in the country, but he left office with approval ratings on par with Dubya. This is what happens when you base your government on whims.
The founders also disfavored political parties, especially George Washington, who absolutely despised them.
It's why they rapidly fell into and created their own political parties. Hell, even Washington favored a faction; the Federalists. I mean fuck, Jefferson was the father of the Democratic party for pete's sake.
The ignorance of the public doesn't help anything, but I still think lobbying can exert a little too much influence at times. A well-informed public is necessary to a functioning democracy/republic/parliament/what-have-you, but unfortunately, I don't think Americans are necessarily well-informed, or even care to be. Call me cynical if you will.
Well of course not; research is effort and people just want it spoonfed to them as my experience with this has shown me. It's why no one ever bothers to actually read on the scientific literature and just takes what they see with blogs and news outlets.
 
You complain about a lack of change in your lifetime; when given examples of these changes, you maneuver the goalposts to state essentially the same thing that was refuted only using different conditions. That's not exactly a style of argument I approve of.

Maybe I'm not always right about things, there's no need to be. Once in a while something good does happen, but I've not had a very optimistic view upon the current state of affairs. People's attitudes in general have shifted on gays and pot, but I kind of have mixed feelings on the latter.

Yes: 1988. He got blasted for weird remarks over Jews. As for dubya and his chances, he actually came pretty close for an incumbent being unseated, and this is still with some of that "rally behind the flag" element that 9/11 and Iraqi Freedom netted him.

Do you mean Bush being unseated in the 2004 election itself, or unseated in the 2004 primary? I'm aware the election was fairly close, but either way, it wouldn't surprise me if he almost got toppled in the primary. Even with his edge as an incumbent and all that 9/11 super-patriot acting, no one was sure. But generally, people tend to go with the guy they know over the one they don't, at least with second-term bids.

It's a big part of our national psyche, so of course race relations are a major topic. I mean fuck, we have people who still can remember being told "we don't serve your kind here". Still kind of a big deal because of it.

Sad but true, it's pretty depressing no matter how you look at it. Even Canada makes a huge deal out of race relations at times, as I may have mentioned earlier. Unfortunately, in the US, this one's not likely to by dying down anytime soon.

Traditionally 3rd parties do the worst out of any of the parties, probably because most if not all of them are vehicles for essentially sore losers. The four way race in 1860 was due to the Democrats disagreeing on who to front and a compromise bloc headed by John Bell. The 1912 elections was due to Roosevelt essentially being pissed that he didn't get the nod. 1924 was Robert M. Follete creating a vehicle to get elected. Dixiecrats and George Wallace did it to express annoyance that the Dems were being nicer to not-white people. And most recently, Perot kind of did it on a lark and backed out at one point.

Third parties have always been a strange lot. While I don't want to believe that they're all kooks or anything like that, some of their ideas may be a bit off the beaten path. There's obvious outliers like the Prohibition Party, which still exists today. Sure, few people advocate the outlawing of alcohol today, but it's out there. Some third parties do have good ideas, sadly, there's little chance of them coming to fruition.

Sadly, we are going to have to accept that we are stuck with a two-party system, and that means that people are going to be forced to choose between the lesser of two evils, or not be heard at all.

The only poll I remotely bother to look to is Nate Silver's predictions, mainly because he's not prone to rip off other polls to create his own. That and he actually has a decent track record, unlike Mr. Celeste and Washington Blog.

Polls themselves are not 100% reliable indicators of anything, but they do help to paint a decent picture, if done right. Of course, there's the question of bias and people skewing polls to get the results they want from them, in order to support a specific claim. While I am not affiliated with Celeste, Washington Blog, or Gallup, the Gallup polls have for the most part correctly predicted the winners of presidential elections with a few exceptions. Polls are subject to margin of error and sample size, regardless, but combined with other information, can give a good picture of the situation overall.

And losing that election basically murdered said party since Teddy went back into the fold and it allowed Woodrow Wilson into office. So yeah, 3rd parties often serve as spoilers. When people say they will, the often change their mind I've noticed. Even the really good 3rd party runs experience a notable drop-off in numbers.

Unfortunately, most third parties don't even get this far, but under the right circumstances, it is possible. The reason most third party supporters usually don't follow through boils down to the fear that their first choice has no chance of winning, so they simply end up voting for whichever of the two major parties they dislike less. While some third parties have won locally, such as Jesse Ventura as Minnesota governor, most of them lack the foresight to build a base and try simply winning local elections, and thinking long term. Instead, they aim too high, and that hurts their chances. You have to walk before you can run, but many don't think it through. All it does is make third parties look like kooks running for personal glory rather than anything else, even if that's not the case. Some of them have legitimate concerns and ideas, and it's sad to see those go to waste or go unconsidered.

I seem to recall him mostly talking about how the ultra-big corporations do it as a means to get words in, and that it only mitigated that element and may be getting more and more prevalent. I don't see this surety you're trying to state is there.

It is certainly getting more prevalent, and while it may not be a sure-fire way for lobbyists to get their way with the lawmakers, it certainly holds a degree of influence over the actual decision-making. No one can predict the final decision, but what's basically legalized bribery in our legislature does wield quite a bit of power.

All due to the fact that people are flighty and often go "it won't effect me" like idiots. Really this is more of a sign that direct democracy fucks things up than a sign of needing a third party element to me.

Well, if people were better informed or cared to be, it probably wouldn't be as bad, but that's just me being optimistic. People not understanding the issues in general is certainly a major contributor though. California doesn't even have room for two parties, let alone a third.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant-party_system#Americas

Arnie as a decent governor?

He was not only in the running as one of the worst governors in the country, but he left office with approval ratings on par with Dubya. This is what happens when you base your government on whims.

I never said he was good, that was more in jest. As much as I like his movies, I don't think actors make good statesmen. The point is, California was messed up both before and after he left, and even though he didn't perform too well, he was fighting an uphill battle either way. Did he leave California in worse shape than before? It's hard to say, there's a conflicting number of sources on the deal.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2028599,00.html

Either way, he should probably stick to acting and bodybuilding.

It's why they rapidly fell into and created their own political parties. Hell, even Washington favored a faction; the Federalists. I mean fuck, Jefferson was the father of the Democratic party for pete's sake.

While Washington and others disfavored political parties, it's inevitable that they're going to take form in any sort of political system, whether it be a republic, democracy, parliamentary, what-have-you, factions tend to form. Even communist countries have factions within their parties at times.

Here's a good read regarding the negatives of party politics:

http://www.localelectors.org/2012/09/01/political-parties-were-never-meant-to-be/

And this problem is not limited to democratic forms of government, either

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/23/world/asia/china-political-factions-primer/

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/14/chin-j14.html

Well of course not; research is effort and people just want it spoonfed to them as my experience with this has shown me. It's why no one ever bothers to actually read on the scientific literature and just takes what they see with blogs and news outlets.

It can be interesting to read about for some people, but many feel that it's all distant from themselves and are less interested than they would be otherwise. Doing your own research and coming to your own conclusions on anything can be difficult, and it takes time and effort to make informed decisions. Most are just happy to take 30 second news bites at face value and go with that, even in the face of an obviously biased source.
 
The Canadian political system, from what little I understand is:
-Vote in Conservatives to get rid of Liberals
-Get sick of Conservatives
-Vote in Liberals to get rid of Conservatives
-Get Sick of Liberals
And it has been that way since forever.
It should be noted that there are two other parties that enjoy moderate populatity, they are the Green Party and the NDPs. Neither of these parties have gotten a candidate from their party as the PM but I think locally and provincially they do ok
 
The Canadian political system, from what little I understand is:
-Vote in Conservatives to get rid of Liberals
-Get sick of Conservatives
-Vote in Liberals to get rid of Conservatives
-Get Sick of Liberals
And it has been that way since forever.
It should be noted that there are two other parties that enjoy moderate populatity, they are the Green Party and the NDPs. Neither of these parties have gotten a candidate from their party as the PM but I think locally and provincially they do ok

Are you Australian, by any chance?

I'm fairly sure all democratic governments do this, actually. We've got the Liberal and Labour parties and the Greens. We also have a lot of independents. Every couple of years, a power shift occurs and Greens always get a decent number of seats.
 
  1. https://static.kiwifarms.net/data/avatars/s/0/231.jpg?1417417329 A moment agoyawning sneasel:
    You hould post on the forms of government thread that you are a cummunist

Hi, apparently I'm what he said.
 
Are you Australian, by any chance?

I'm fairly sure all democratic governments do this, actually. We've got the Liberal and Labour parties and the Greens. We also have a lot of independents. Every couple of years, a power shift occurs and Greens always get a decent number of seats.
No, I'm just a very stupid Canadian
 
Are you Australian, by any chance?

I'm fairly sure all democratic governments do this, actually.

Not all democratic party systems are that static or that focused around two large parties.

Even the presented summary of the Canadian party system is inaccurate, at least at the moment - the Liberals are only the third biggest party at the moment.
 
In regards to lobbying, large businesses lobbying in their own interest will always be around in mixed economies, regardless if the ways that they do it are legal or illegal, and the government would be its own lobbyist in a command economy. The only ways around that would be either the government ceasing any and all economic regulation or not having a government at all, and I doubt that most people would want either of those options.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Adamska
Back