Free will vs Determinism

[PrimeCutDiggityDog]

What is your view?

 

[Some JERK]

As the OP is worded, It's a very broad topic, and not everyone agrees that the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[QI 541]

Define exactly what criteria needs to be met for free will to exist. In most arguments I've seen about this, "free will" is the same as "randomness". Probably because randomness is the opposite of determinism.

 

[PrimeCutDiggityDog]

Define exactly what criteria needs to be met for free will to exist. In most arguments I've seen about this, "free will" is the same as "randomness". Probably because randomness is the opposite of determinism.

Do we really have control of our actions, thoughts, etc. Or is it all completely determined by our "wiring" and our environment?

 

[PrimeCutDiggityDog]

As the OP is worded, It's a very broad topic, and not everyone agrees that the two are mutually exclusive.

A deterministic mind state wherein one has free will is a paradox imo. Not that it isn't true (necessarily).

 

[QI 541]

Define exactly what criteria needs to be met for free will to exist. In most arguments I've seen about this, "free will" is the same as "randomness". Probably because randomness is the opposite of determinism.

Do we really have control of our actions, thoughts, etc. Or is it all completely determined by our "wiring" and our environment?

Evidence suggests the latter. CWC is a pretty good example of how both genetics and upbringing screwed him over.

A deterministic mind state wherein one has free will is a paradox imo. Not that it isn't true (necessarily).

I don't really see a contradiction between those two. Even if your choices are predictable, they're still your choices.
The bigger problem is how strongly your choices are influenced by factors out of your control.

 

[KatsuKitty]

Depends on which interpretation of quantium physics is correct. If it's Copenhagen, then there's a decent chance free will is real. If it's many-worlds, you're merely just a pawn acting out what happens in this universe.

 

[Picklepower]

Where would be a good start for me to start learning about this stuff?

 

[hellbound]

Depends on which interpretation of quantium physics is correct. If it's Copenhagen, then there's a decent chance free will is real. If it's many-worlds, you're merely just a pawn acting out what happens in this universe.

Or is it that every choice you make (really, every fizz and pop of a particle) aligns you on that particular worldline, and every other one is one where a different choice/fizz/pop was made?

Or does it even matter?

Personally I think that choice and will are too macro for QM which is really only a model to best fit extremely micro-scale systems. I believe in free will, but also believe that if we didn't have free will but hard determinism of the world was such that it appeared to us that we did (as it would have to be, since we clearly appear to have free will), it doesn't functionally matter and asserting free will describes it adequately.

 

[Holdek]

Where would be a good start for me to start learning about this stuff?

http://www.samharris.org/free-will

 

[Picklepower]

I did listen to a couple debates on this once. I'll use a Chris analogy, you could say that with all the factors in his life (The Autism, his parents, his interactions etc.)there was probably no other way he would have turned out, but at the same time, he could have chosen differently. I say he could because techniquely he could, but it was extremely unlikely.

My question is, if Determinism is the 100% right option, then how could we blame Chris for any bad thing he has done? (I know that's a silly example, but its a serious question)

 

[Holdek]

I did listen to a couple debates on this once. I'll use a Chris analogy, you could say that with all the factors in his life (The Autism, his parents, his interactions etc.)there was probably no other way he would have turned out, but at the same time, he could have chosen differently. I say he could because techniquely he could, but it was extremely unlikely.

My question is, if Determinism is the 100% right option, then how could we blame Chris for any bad thing he has done? (I know that's a silly example, but its a serious question)

With determinism the whole thing becomes fairly philosophical and makes you reevaluate the meaning and benefit of a concept like "blame."

Determinism would say that choice for him is an illusion: choices are simply the result of connections between neurons in the brain. Those connections are determined by genetics (including autism), and environment (including how he was formed through parenting).

 

[Niachu]

With determinism the whole thing becomes fairly philosophical and makes you reevaluate the meaning and benefit of a concept like "blame."

Determinism would say that choice for him is an illusion: choices are simply the result of connections between neurons in the brain. Those connections are determined by genetics (including autism), and environment (including how he was formed through parenting).

Necroing, but I remembered this thread exists. However you feel about blame, people still need to be held accountable. Even if you don't think humans have free will, they are retrainable. Sad for Chris he has no one in his life willing to help him with it.

 

[Alec Benson Leary]

I think free will exists, but it's... well, stratified, for lack of a better term.

For example, think of a sort of platonic cave allegory. If there are two people in a situation, but one person holds all the knowledge of what's going on while the other knows nothing, the ignorant one will be at the other's mercy. So they can still technically make "free" choices, but if the other guy can perfectly predict what he'll do, is he really "free"?

 

[Holdek]

....However you feel about blame, people still need to be held accountable. Even if you don't think humans have free will, they are retrainable....

This is true. But, still, without free will, holding people accountable for their behavior serves a purely utilitarian function divorced from morality.

I think free will exists, but it's... well, stratified, for lack of a better term.

For example, think of a sort of platonic cave allegory. If there are two people in a situation, but one person holds all the knowledge of what's going on while the other knows nothing, the ignorant one will be at the other's mercy. So they can still technically make "free" choices, but if the other guy can perfectly predict what he'll do, is he really "free"?

In this type of situation I would put access to knowledge (or lack of it) in the "environment" part of the equation.

 

[Marvin]

This is true. But, still, without free will, holding people accountable for their behavior serves a purely utilitarian function divorced from morality.

In a deterministic universe, our beliefs about punishment and its relation to morality are already preordained! Heh, hell, how this conversation will end up is already fixed in stone.

I gotta say I genuinely do believe in a completely deterministic universe. The continuing march of scientific development just keeps on finding deeper (and better) explanations about the world around us. And how accurate all the predictions we get out of science convinces me that god does not play dice.

I mean, philosophically, I don't have evidence for this either way. People might say "well, we keep on getting better science, doesn't that make determinism more likely?" But it doesn't, because all of our ideas about likelihood are grounded in our reality, so they might mean jack shit to the "real" rules that govern the universe.

But either way, it doesn't really affect my day-to-day life. I just think that whatever I'm going to do (or feel, or think) is already predetermined, so I just do what I feel like. I'm already gonna do it, so why worry about it? (Or maybe I was destined to worry about it, so I'm going to do that anyway?? )

 

[Ariel]

I think I believe in determinism to some extent, a continuing cycle of actions predetermining actions.

 

[Holdek]

In a deterministic universe, our beliefs about punishment and its relation to morality are already preordained! Heh, hell, how this conversation will end up is already fixed in stone.

I gotta say I genuinely do believe in a completely deterministic universe. The continuing march of scientific development just keeps on finding deeper (and better) explanations about the world around us. And how accurate all the predictions we get out of science convinces me that god does not play dice.

I mean, philosophically, I don't have evidence for this either way. People might say "well, we keep on getting better science, doesn't that make determinism more likely?" But it doesn't, because all of our ideas about likelihood are grounded in our reality, so they might mean jack shit to the "real" rules that govern the universe.

But either way, it doesn't really affect my day-to-day life. I just think that whatever I'm going to do (or feel, or think) is already predetermined, so I just do what I feel like. I'm already gonna do it, so why worry about it? (Or maybe I was destined to worry about it, so I'm going to do that anyway?? )

I think maybe you're conflating determinism with predestination. The universe doesn't have "free will" but the laws of mathematics says that it does have elements of probability and chance. Since humans are part of the universe, they too will have elements of probability and chance. The question is whether their decisions can be ethically judged outside of mere probability and chance (which result from genetic development and the influence of environment).

At some point though this kind of becomes like talking about time travel paradoxes and it hurts my brain a little bit .

 

[Marvin]

I think maybe you're conflating determinism with predestination. The universe doesn't have "free will" but the laws of mathematics says that it does have elements of probability and chance. Since humans are part of the universe, they too will have elements of probability and chance. The question is whether their decisions can be ethically judged outside of mere probability and chance (which result from genetic development and the influence of environment).

At some point though this kind of becomes like talking about time travel paradoxes and it hurts my brain a little bit .

The probability comes in because our models of explaining the universe aren't precise enough.

Edit: And predestination is implied by determinism, if it's strong enough.

 

[Holdek]

The probability comes in because our models of explaining the universe aren't precise enough.

Edit: And predestination is implied by determinism, if it's strong enough.

I think probabilities will always be a factor, simply because randomness does exist. Quantum theory, for example, isn't just a result of a lack of precision in our models, but the realization that particles have wave-particle duality, which allows for things like electron clouds.