Free will vs Determinism

[Marvin]

I think probabilities will always be a factor, simply because randomness does exist. Quantum theory, for example, isn't just a result of a lack of precision in our models, but the realization that particles have wave-particle duality, which allows for things like electron clouds.

Well no, quantum theory is the most accurate model we have to explain what we see on a quantum scale. And then classical mechanics explains what we observe on a large scale. There could still be a unifying theory that we still haven't discovered, that explains both using the same rules.

It's like having a box with bouncing ping pong balls. Their motions seem random to an average person off the street, but actually, we can predict their motions to a very high degree of accuracy. Our science is just getting better and better, and I don't think it's going to stop here, especially with a silly quantum vs classical distinction.

There will probably always be a limit to how accurately we can observe something, but even so, I think that the rules that dictate our behavior are ultimately fixed and predictable, even if we're never able to fully predict them. Of course, if we could predict them, something bad would happen. We could predict our own behavior. How would that even work? I don't think it could work. It's like a time travel paradox.

 

[Holdek]

Well no, quantum theory is the most accurate model we have to explain what we see on a quantum scale. And then classical mechanics explains what we observe on a large scale. There could still be a unifying theory that we still haven't discovered, that explains both using the same rules.

It's like having a box with bouncing ping pong balls. Their motions seem random to an average person off the street, but actually, we can predict their motions to a very high degree of accuracy. Our science is just getting better and better, and I don't think it's going to stop here, especially with a silly quantum vs classical distinction.

Quantum mechanics supports inherent randomness. This is due to the instability of things at those levels.

There will probably always be a limit to how accurately we can observe something, but even so, I think that the rules that dictate our behavior are ultimately fixed and predictable, even if we're never able to fully predict them. Of course, if we could predict them, something bad would happen. We could predict our own behavior. How would that even work? I don't think it could work. It's like a time travel paradox.

But if the rules that dictate our behavior are predictable, and we continue to increase our ability to predict, then, while it we may never be able to perfectly predict our behavior, we will be able to do so to such a high degree of accuracy that we would run pretty close to that paradox. So then what happens?

 

[Marvin]

Quantum mechanics supports inherent randomness. This is due to the instability of things at those levels.

It doesn't insist on inherent randomness. Quantum mechanics is just the best explanation we have right now. It's pretty good, but not perfect.

But if the rules that dictate our behavior are predictable, and we continue to increase our ability to predict, then, while it we may never be able to perfectly predict our behavior, we will be able to do so to such a high degree of accuracy that we would run pretty close to that paradox. So then what happens?

The paradox happens when we can predict 100% of our actions. I can predict what happens five minutes from now, and we don't have a problem. As science gets better, that limit, currently (let's say) five minutes, just increases. It might be weird from my perspective now, but the build up to that point would happen so gradually, it won't appear strange to people in the future.

 

[Sanic]

My opinion, we have free-will, we make our own decisions. But because God is beyond time/space, form, etc., our own free-will decisions are already known to the Ultimate Reality (call it God, Nirvana, the Tao, whichever you prefer). Ultimate Reality exists within time, but at the same time transcends it. I'd have to do more theological research before I could give a detailed answer. Being a religion major helps, lol.

 

[Holdek]

My opinion, we have free-will, we make our own decisions. But because God is beyond time/space, form, etc., our own free-will decisions are already known to the Ultimate Reality (call it God, Nirvana, the Tao, whichever you prefer). Ultimate Reality exists within time, but at the same time transcends it. I'd have to do more theological research before I could give a detailed answer. Being a religion major helps, lol.

How do you reconcile free will with a god already knowing what you are going to do?

 

[Sanic]

How do you reconcile free will with a god already knowing what you are going to do?

God knows all your decisions, but it's up to you personally to make them. You have the choice how to guide your life. God would not be God if he was not perfection (not limited to the time system, space, etc.). God knows all possible outcomes of all things, because his wisdom is infinite (once again, this is refering to all religions/belief systems, just using God because I identify with it the most). Ultimate reality can never be limited. It understands all, as we're just lesser aspects of that perfection, from the same essence. Evil does not exist in the world.

A bit of a tangent, but basically, it's all up to you, God knows the outcome already, but you do not. So, continue living a good life and being compassionate to others and all will go well.

 

[Holdek]

God knows all your decisions, but it's up to you personally to make them. You have the choice how to guide your life. God would not be God was not perfection (not limited to the time system, space, etc.). God knows all possible outcomes of all things, because his wisdom is infinite (once again, this is refering to all religions/belief systems, just using God because I identify with it the most). Ultimate reality can never be limited. It understands all, as we're just lesser aspects of that perfection, from the same essence. Evil does not exist in the world.

A bit of a tangent, but basically, it's all up to you, God knows the outcome already, but you do not. So, continue living a good life and being compassionate to others and all will go well.

But if God knows the outcome, then it's predetermined what I'm going to do. Basically, God has this idea of what I'm going to do, and I can't change my mind from what God is predicting. Therefore, no free will.

 

[Sanic]

But if God knows the outcome, then it's predetermined what I'm going to do. Basically, God has this idea of what I'm going to do, and I can't change my mind from what God is predicting. Therefore, no free will.

God isn't predicting anything. It's known, not predicted. You still guide your own life, God just knows what will happen, as God is the Ultimate Reality, above time/space (as I mentioned). You're life is yours, you guide it, make your decisions on your own (I won't go into anything about God in our lives right now or I'd be typing forever, sorry, lol). As long as you're a good person and truly are from the bottom of your heart, you've lived the good life.

For example: It's like watching a movie you've seen before. You know the main hero is going to die, but the hero does not know he is going to die. For us, it's predetermined (we are essentially God in this scenario), but the hero has no inkling we are even there, and know his fate. His decisions are of his free will, meaning his life is guided by him and him alone. We (God) do not interfere with the hero and his decisions. We only watch and know his decisions are his own and where they will take him.

Edit: The logic I'm using is non-dualistic in a sense. May seem circular, but think of Yin/Yang, and you may see what I'm talking about.

 

[c-no]

God isn't predicting anything. It's known, not predicted. You still guide your own life, God just knows what will happen, as God is the Ultimate Reality, above time/space (as I mentioned). You're life is yours, you guide it, make your decisions on your own (I won't go into anything about God in our lives right now or I'd be typing forever, sorry, lol). As long as you're a good person and truly are from the bottom of your heart, you've lived the good life.

For example: It's like watching a movie you've seen before. You know the main hero is going to die, but the hero does not know he is going to die. For us, it's predetermined (we are essentially God in this scenario), but the hero has no inkling we are even there, and know his fate. His decisions are of his free will, meaning his life is guided by him and him alone. We (God) do not interfere with the hero and his decisions. We only watch and know his decisions are his own and where they will take him.

Edit: The logic I'm using is non-dualistic in a sense. May seem circular, but think of Yin/Yang, and you may see what I'm talking about.

I kinda thought by what you posted, you mean't this: God knows the end result, but that would be various outcomes. For the guy who gets those outcomes, that depends on a choice he makes. Would that be a way of explaining what you posted?

 

[Arctic]

I think hardcore determinism is really the only realistic possibility (*tips fedora*) but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't exploit the illusion of free will for all that it's worth.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

I am an eliminative materialist for emotions but take a reductive materialist position on mathematics and thus am a compatibilist

 

[Cave]

I like the idea of soft determinism.

". . . acknowledges that all events, including human actions, have causes; but it allows for free actions when the actions are caused by one's choices rather than external forces."