Game of Thrones Thread

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What's ironic about GRRM not getting the medieval concept of honor is that, in certain respects, villainous characters in modern media can fit the Medieval notion of "honorable", which is the exact different way GRRM sees honor. GRRM sees honor as keeping your word even if the enemy does not. He sees honor as suicidal kindness, when in reality, medieval honor was a completely different flavor of honor altogether, which does not match up with GRRM's idea of honor.

You can have a villain who adores war and wants to get into the battlefield as soon as possible, yet he wants to give the other side a fair fight and does not engage in trickery or hijinks. But he's still willing to kill you if you so much as fuck with him. That isn't how GRRM sees an honorable character. Which is kind of funny, since Medieval honor is the kind of shit that will start a war if someone besmirches someone else's reputation.

GRRM would also think Ned as honorable for not ratting out Cersei to Robert, but an honorable man by Medieval standards would've done so at the drop of a hat, especially since succession lines are considered important, and kings have a sacred character. So Ned would've not only warned Stannis, but the entire kingdom, of Cersei's treachery. That would've been the honorable thing to do by Medieval standards.

Not to mention that Ned wouldn't need to fear Cersei getting brutalized by Robert, since actual Medieval nobility standards would've just had her deposed and ransomed back to Tywin, since she is still aristocracy. Robert would just add removing her kids from the will and probably having Shireen (Stannis' daughter) marry Robb Stark or something. Hell, Robb was already named after him, so Robert would have an affinity for the boy. Marrying Robb to Robert's trueborn Baratheon niece would secure the Stark/Baratheon alliance and ensure that Robert and Ned would have their combined blood on the throne.
 
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What's ironic about GRRM not getting the medieval concept of honor is that, in certain respects, villainous characters in modern media can fit the Medieval notion of "honorable", which is the exact different way GRRM sees honor. GRRM sees honor as keeping your word even if the enemy does not. He sees honor as suicidal kindness, when in reality, medieval honor was a completely different flavor of honor altogether, which does not match up with GRRM's idea of honor.

You can have a villain who adores war and wants to get into the battlefield as soon as possible, yet he wants to give the other side a fair fight and does not engage in trickery or hijinks. But he's still willing to kill you if you so much as fuck with him. That isn't how GRRM sees an honorable character. Which is kind of funny, since Medieval honor is the kind of shit that will start a war if someone besmirches someone else's reputation.

GRRM would also think Ned as honorable for not ratting out Cersei to Robert, but an honorable man by Medieval standards would've done so at the drop of a hat, especially since succession lines are considered important, and kings have a sacred character. So Ned would've not only warned Stannis, but the entire kingdom, of Cersei's treachery. That would've been the honorable thing to do by Medieval standards.

Not to mention that Ned wouldn't need to fear Cersei getting brutalized by Robert, since actual Medieval nobility standards would've just had her deposed and ransomed back to Tywin, since she is still aristocracy. Robert would just add removing her kids from the will and probably having Shireen (Stannis' daughter) marry Robb Stark or something. Hell, Robb was already named after him, so Robert would have an affinity for the boy. Marrying Robb to Robert's trueborn Baratheon niece would secure the Stark/Baratheon alliance and ensure that Robert and Ned would have their combined blood on the throne.
That was Ned's plan, but it was interrupted by Robert dying.

The reason he gave Cersei a chance was that he saw Robert being casual about the deaths of Rhaegar's kids and he was sure Robert would be fine by killing Cersei's children or if he someone did. It wasn't really much for Cersei's sake that he did, but rather for the kids.

Ned was a fool, but a lot of the things he did that turned out wrong was just terrible bad timing too. He was too much of a goody-goody to have the malice to have a plan in case people decided to do the worst.
 
Not to mention that Ned wouldn't need to fear Cersei getting brutalized by Robert, since actual Medieval nobility standards would've just had her deposed and ransomed back to Tywin, since she is still aristocracy
I think you are being mighty optimistic here. Even without GRRM edgy writing, cucking a king would at best granted you an "accidental" death, but getting executed is also on the table. It's one of the worst crimes a noblewoman can conceivably do. The only recourse for the woman is her running to a monastery and taking refuge.
 
I think you are being mighty optimistic here. Even without GRRM edgy writing, cucking a king would at best granted you an "accidental" death, but getting executed is also on the table. It's one of the worst crimes a noblewoman can conceivably do. The only recourse for the woman is her running to a monastery and taking refuge.
There is no way Ned wasn't expecting Cersei to get punished for this. Even if she ran to Casterly Rock, Robert could have summoned her back or go personally there to demand Tywin to give her up. They all knew this had the potential for becoming a war, hence Jaime's joke about the "war for Cersei's cunt" (he only thought about escaping to the Free Cities much later after Robert was dead). The book opened with Ned giving deserters the King's justice, he knew the law would be applied to Cersei one way or another.

He wasn't afraid of Robert's justice, though, but of his rage. He feared he would get so irrationally mad that he could hurt the children too. He also had some compassion for Cersei after he saw Robert slapped her, so he at least thought giving her a chance. Back then, of course, he wasn't aware of how much of a snake she really was.
 
There is no way Ned wasn't expecting Cersei to get punished for this. Even if she ran to Casterly Rock, Robert could have summoned her back or go personally there to demand Tywin to give her up. They all knew this had the potential for becoming a war, hence Jaime's joke about the "war for Cersei's cunt" (he only thought about escaping to the Free Cities much later after Robert was dead). The book opened with Ned giving deserters the King's justice, he knew the law would be applied to Cersei one way or another.

He wasn't afraid of Robert's justice, though, but of his rage. He feared he would get so irrationally mad that he could hurt the children too. He also had some compassion for Cersei after he saw Robert slapped her, so he at least thought giving her a chance. Back then, of course, he wasn't aware of how much of a snake she really was.
Would it even been a war? Casterly Rock's most logical position is to disown Cersei and at least try to save Jaime from execution by arguing it was another person. Going against it would just have everyone else ganging up on them, including their minor lords.

In the end it doesn't matter since Ned gets killed (with a reasoning that gets retconned later on) and Cersei has god like amount of luck and 4D chess skills she never displays again.
 
Does it actually make anyone here feel better that this saga will never have an ending? Like, we can individually decide how we want things to end because Martin ain't ever finishing this shit. Maybe we get Winds of Winter at some point before he shuffles off this mortal coil but sure as fuck are we never, ever seeing A Dream of Spring published.
 
I think you are being mighty optimistic here. Even without GRRM edgy writing, cucking a king would at best granted you an "accidental" death, but getting executed is also on the table. It's one of the worst crimes a noblewoman can conceivably do. The only recourse for the woman is her running to a monastery and taking refuge.
Not if the queen's father is Tywin fucking Lannister. At best, Robert might get a large sum of cash from Tywin as restitution for Cersei's deception. At worst, if Robert presses his case or even executes Cersei, then Tywin can declare war; he can enlist the many lords who still see Robert as a usurper, as well as the Tyrells, who never really liked Robert.

As for who might sit on the Iron Throne, Tywin can recruit the exiled Targaryen princess, Daenerys. Or if this is still early in the game, Tywin can approach Viserys Targaryen and offer him the crown if he's still alive.

Or he can just say "fuck it" and rule directly as king after he's dispatched Robert, with no Baratheon or Targaryen to lord over him. He'd probably enjoy that, and he obviously thinks he's more worthy to rule than Aerys or Robert ever were.

There is no way Ned wasn't expecting Cersei to get punished for this. Even if she ran to Casterly Rock, Robert could have summoned her back or go personally there to demand Tywin to give her up. They all knew this had the potential for becoming a war, hence Jaime's joke about the "war for Cersei's cunt" (he only thought about escaping to the Free Cities much later after Robert was dead). The book opened with Ned giving deserters the King's justice, he knew the law would be applied to Cersei one way or another.

He wasn't afraid of Robert's justice, though, but of his rage. He feared he would get so irrationally mad that he could hurt the children too. He also had some compassion for Cersei after he saw Robert slapped her, so he at least thought giving her a chance. Back then, of course, he wasn't aware of how much of a snake she really was.
I'm pretty sure Robert knows the threat Tywin poses. Even in his rage, he'd know that hurting Cersei or her children will invite Tywin's wrath, and that's something he wouldn't want, given that his regime is fragile enough, with many lords still calling him a usurper behind his back. They can easily rally behind Tywin and overthrow him before reinforcements from the Vale, Riverrun, and Winterfell can bail him out.

Does it actually make anyone here feel better that this saga will never have an ending? Like, we can individually decide how we want things to end because Martin ain't ever finishing this shit. Maybe we get Winds of Winter at some point before he shuffles off this mortal coil but sure as fuck are we never, ever seeing A Dream of Spring published.
No. I figured that out when Winds of Winter failed to come out for over a decade. After that, I made my peace with the fact that ASOIAF will never be finished. I don't think that Winds of Winter will even reach publication.
 
Not if the queen's father is Tywin fucking Lannister. At best, Robert might get a large sum of cash from Tywin as restitution for Cersei's deception. At worst, if Robert presses his case or even executes Cersei, then Tywin can declare war; he can enlist the many lords who still see Robert as a usurper, as well as the Tyrells, who never really liked Robert.
The same Tywin that has a song on how he will absolutely slaughter his allies. Has a incestuous daughter, a kingslayer son and another genetic abhorrence son? Even if he will have some loyal lords left, no one outside of Lannister will support them since they are already too powerful for the current houses to leave in the status quo. The Tyrells are very unlikely to favour Tywin as well. Robert himself is genuinely popular, especially compared to what came before him.
As for who might sit on the Iron Throne, Tywin can recruit the exiled Targaryen princess, Daenerys. Or if this is still early in the game, Tywin can approach Viserys Targaryen and offer him the crown if he's still alive.

Or he can just say "fuck it" and rule directly as king after he's dispatched Robert, with no Baratheon or Targaryen to lord over him. He'd probably enjoy that, and he obviously thinks he's more worthy to rule than Aerys or Robert ever were.
No fucking way any of the Targaryen will become kings. Heck, they need to be insane to think this isn't a trap to kill them. The only house that somewhat likes them is the sand nigger house.
 
Does it actually make anyone here feel better that this saga will never have an ending?
We've seen the ending. HBO gave us the canon ending for the main cast right from GRRM's notes. The stuff from the books we didn't see are the inconsequential characters like Euron, Victarion, Quaithe, Young Griff, Connington, and so on. Their stories, like most stories in ASOIAF, barely matter. Just like the Others made almost no difference whatsoever.

Even if the next 2-4 main ASOIAF series books are written, even by GRRM himself, they won't change anything compared to the HBO show anyways. We've gotten the 'greatest hits' version of the ending already. Who really wants one with all the filler content other than diehard ASOIAF fans at this point?
 
I think you all are forgetting the very important variable of Tywin and Robert being, each in their own way, very impulsive and prideful men. Tywin is better at hiding it, but he's petty and lets his wounded ego do the thinking (albeit in a more methodic way).

Robert could have killed Cersei and in a fit of rage, the kids too. He never liked Tywin and hated that he offered him Cersei, so he felt stuck with this family, including kids that didn't even look like him. This was Ned's biggest fear and it was a possibility. Killing Cersei and the kids wouldn't have proven her betrayal, only that Robert believed the accusation. It would have made Tywin mad, though.

OTOH, there is no way Tywin would let the power slip through his fingers like this. He would call the accusations lies and say this is a plot to replace Cersei. He wouldn't give her up to them and he would double down on her innocence, not out of love but because the kids are his only way to get power once Robert was gone.

And then it's Jaime. Jaime is a mix of the worst of these two. He would murder Robert if he tried to hurt Cersei and then he would take her out of Westeros as a soft admission of their guilt. And if Robert had indeed killed her, he would go over Tywin's head and call banners against Robert.

All considered, Ned's plan was the best possible outcome.
 
The same Tywin that has a song on how he will absolutely slaughter his allies. Has a incestuous daughter, a kingslayer son and another genetic abhorrence son? Even if he will have some loyal lords left, no one outside of Lannister will support them since they are already too powerful for the current houses to leave in the status quo. The Tyrells are very unlikely to favour Tywin as well. Robert himself is genuinely popular, especially compared to what came before him.
A lot of houses hated Robert, and he knew it. He even complained about it to Ned, how many lords call him a usurper behind his back. Hence why Robert needed the help of the Arryns, Tullys, and Starks to hold the throne. As for the houses like the Tyrells, they don't need to like the Lannisters; they're more likely willing to just work together for a common cause against a house they see as a usurper.

Especially since they do remember the days when Tywin ran the realm in Aerys' name, and those were some prosperous years of peace. Tywin was already running things back when Stannis and Robert were still kids, and the realm was prosperous back then. So if Robert just kills Cersei and Tywin declares war in response, the latter can count on more than several houses' support.

Stannis himself had this to say about Tywin, and Stannis is an enemy of Tywin's:

"I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome. Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who'd so impressed us."
-A Storm of Swords, Chapter 54, Davos V

If even his enemies had such high praise for him, imagine the average lordling's view of Tywin, when they remember how good things were back then when he was running the country. Especially considering the fact that the Reynes rebelling against their liege lord gets many lords to see them as the bad guys, seeing Tywin as right for crushing them because they defied the chain of command, and as for the Dornish, most Westerosi lords weren't fond of them either, especially since they fought Dorne for centuries, and the Dornish had a completely different culture when compared to the rest of Westeros.

No fucking way any of the Targaryen will become kings. Heck, they need to be insane to think this isn't a trap to kill them. The only house that somewhat likes them is the sand nigger house.
Most of the noble houses hate each other, but they're more than willing to work with each other for the sake of power. That, and Viserys and Daenerys are kind of desperate. Viserys before Khal Drogo killed him was desperate for a chance to take control, hence why he stole the dragon eggs. One egg to buy a ship, and two eggs to buy a really big army. And Daenerys after Khal Drogo died was left wandering the desert with little hope. If the "King" of Qarth didn't let her in, she would've likely starved to death with her entourage.

Either one of these Targs would react to Tywin offering them the throne by taking the chance. Yes, it could be a trap, but it's better than wasting away in the desert.

Although if it did come to a war between the Baratheons and the Lannisters, the Dornish would side against the Lannisters and probably join the Starks, just so they'd have an excuse to kill Gregor Clegane and Tywin Lannister.

Robert could have killed Cersei and in a fit of rage, the kids too. He never liked Tywin and hated that he offered him Cersei, so he felt stuck with this family, including kids that didn't even look like him. This was Ned's biggest fear and it was a possibility. Killing Cersei and the kids wouldn't have proven her betrayal, only that Robert believed the accusation. It would have made Tywin mad, though.
Robert already hated the bitch. That, and he does have his moments of clarity now and then. He'd know that challenging Tywin to a war would mean the splintering of his fragile realm. Yes, it could probably lead to a war if Robert acts on his impulses and kills Cersei, but the soldier in him would know the logic of having a war with Tywin Lannister, and it'd be bad. Especially since he already complained to Ned that many still call him a usurper, and they'd happily join Tywin's side if the latter rebels. Especially since Tywin ran the realm better than Aerys or Robert ever did, so there'd be a reason for would-be rebels to join Tywin.

The way I see it, Robert would get ultra mad, but the soldier and pragmatist in him (the side that told him Dany was a threat with all those Dothraki by her husband's side) would know that a war with Lannister would be a bad idea now that a Targaryen girl has 40,000 Dothraki screamers at her husband's back, so he'd react to it by exiling Cersei and her children, and then bringing in Stannis' daughter Shireen to marry Robb Stark, Ned's elder son. That way, there'd be a Baratheon and a Stark set to inherit the throne in the odd case he croaks.

OTOH, there is no way Tywin would let the power slip through his fingers like this. He would call the accusations lies and say this is a plot to replace Cersei. He wouldn't give her up to them and he would double down on her innocence, not out of love but because the kids are his only way to get power once Robert was gone.
He might. It depends on how much Cersei's innocence holds up in the eyes of the aristocracy. He could plan to marry a relative of his to the future children of Robb and Shireen. That, or marry in with the Tyrells to build up his own power base and make sure Robb Stark would depend on his side for grain and gold, and he'd have a massive army of 140,000 men close to the capital in case Robb became disagreeable.

We've seen the ending. HBO gave us the canon ending for the main cast right from GRRM's notes. The stuff from the books we didn't see are the inconsequential characters like Euron, Victarion, Quaithe, Young Griff, Connington, and so on. Their stories, like most stories in ASOIAF, barely matter. Just like the Others made almost no difference whatsoever.

Even if the next 2-4 main ASOIAF series books are written, even by GRRM himself, they won't change anything compared to the HBO show anyways. We've gotten the 'greatest hits' version of the ending already. Who really wants one with all the filler content other than diehard ASOIAF fans at this point?
GRRM's writing makes Naruto filler look fulfilling by comparison. And with all the story points he left dangling, there's no way in hell he can finish them all with all the projects he's now involved in.

And yes, a lot of the Game of Thrones' ending felt like GRRM's writing. About how absolute monarchs like Daenerys eventually turn bad, how expectations are subverted, how there's no real good guy in war, how everything ends with a slow march to democracy, which is seen as a good thing by the author, hence why electoral monarchy is portrayed as a positive as opposed to absolute monarchy.

The one thing that was running through my head as I saw the last season is how everything lines up with GRRM's negative views on monarchy and religious prophecy, and his tendency to "subvert" expectations was in full view.
 
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Westeros doesn’t seem to have as lenient legal norms for nobility(who can be and are executed) than medieval Europe.

Ned’s concern that Robert will butcher Cersei’s bastards, is extremely reasonable. It might not be “legal” per se-but it is acceptable. Given even Stannis talks about killing them all.

Which tells me Martin wants to imply Westeros is far more severe than real life Europe. Which fine-but he should explicitly say this more.

The best Cersei and her kids could hope for from any Westerosi monarch is exile-gelding or the wall, wouldn’t be enough. They are not just borne of adultery but incest as well. If Cersei had taken Ned’s offer and fled-then Ned probably thought he could calm Robert down.

But the expectation of killing them is absolute and unavoidable in the text itself.
 
Ned’s concern that Robert will butcher Cersei’s bastards, is extremely reasonable. It might not be “legal” per se-but it is acceptable. Given even Stannis talks about killing them all.
It has a lot to do with Robert being the king and the realm being in peace times. Everybody but the Lannisters would be on his side and many would fight each other to propose a new queen, but not enough to make it an actual war. This wouldn't be the case if the accused lady had been Robert's actual legitimate daughter and her husband killed her.
 
Westeros doesn’t seem to have as lenient legal norms for nobility(who can be and are executed) than medieval Europe.

Ned’s concern that Robert will butcher Cersei’s bastards, is extremely reasonable. It might not be “legal” per se-but it is acceptable. Given even Stannis talks about killing them all.

Which tells me Martin wants to imply Westeros is far more severe than real life Europe. Which fine-but he should explicitly say this more.

The best Cersei and her kids could hope for from any Westerosi monarch is exile-gelding or the wall, wouldn’t be enough. They are not just borne of adultery but incest as well. If Cersei had taken Ned’s offer and fled-then Ned probably thought he could calm Robert down.

But the expectation of killing them is absolute and unavoidable in the text itself.
Didn't Cersei do a public purge or the Robert's bastards? Seemingly nobles can do anything until the plot says they can't.
 
Didn't Cersei do a public purge or the Robert's bastards? Seemingly nobles can do anything until the plot says they can't.
To be fair, she didn't do it openly and they were bastards. Nobody's gonna cry for them.

That's why she had to make some elaborate plan to get rid of Margaery instead of just ordering to kill her. Killing her would mean losing the Tyrrell and even going to war.
 
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