Global Depression 2022 - Time to do the Breadline Boogaloo!

Who is going to get hit the hardest?

  • North America

  • South America

  • Asia

  • Europe

  • Australia

  • Africa

  • The Middle East

  • Everyone's fucked

  • Nothing will happen


Results are only viewable after voting.
I am...not sure about it. Where do you get the confidence from? I would like to agree with that, but the whole thing is highly complicated with processes that influence other processes and so on.
ATM the North America has one growing season for subtropical and sub arctic plants. Europe has one growing season for sub arctic plants.

A warming climate of just two degrees C (which is THE HECKING END OF THE WORLD apparently) would give the USA TWO growing seasons for sub tropical plants (in the deep south) and TWO growing seasons for sub arctic crops (in the North). Minnesota can grow corn in the Summer, and Barley in the Winter as the glaringly obvious example. It would double food production and easily lead to an increase in avaialble food calories to support a growing population.

For Europe It would mean not only can they grow Wheat and Barley, but now they can ALSO grow Corn, Millet and Soybeans in way greater quantity then they can now. It would also open Scandinavia up as a fucking gold mine for food crop production, particularly sub arctic fruiting trees like Apples and Cherries. Even more critical, the melting of the Arctic Sea Ice would open up the Northwest passage, allowing for rapid transcontinental travel between Europe, North America and Asia, cutting shipping times by astronomical amounts. Arctic Facing Ports would become massively important. Such as Aberdeen, Bristol, Churchill, Nome and Rotterdam.
 
What is that now? I thought milage was the point. Why is me bringing up costs a red herring while you bringing up, supposed, lower resource use by hydrogen not?
Also regarding that specific project:
https://ieefa.org/resources/hydrogen-energy-supply-chain-project-viability-remains-uncertain-wake-hydrogen-headstart
Nothing says green more than using coal. Awfully German of you.
If you attended chemistry class hydrogen could be produced via electrolysis, it's a simple process. Stop trying to bring up coal. Did you fail basic chemistry class?

You know that very rare resource that is unavailable to the western world. Only shitholes like China and middle east have issues getting clean water for electrolysis. Rare earths like fossil fuels are finite resource where water is abundant. (Your source shill for 'green' lithium by the way)

Far as I know water does not contain any coal, making the argument moot. Anyone with access to water with a decent electroyzer and tanks can build a self sustaining set up. By energy potential, hydrogen plants have older contemporaries beat by a mile. Which is the reason why countries that aren't retarded aim for hydrogen production and plants (Japan and Singapore). This technology is in its infancy and prove to be less resource intensive like fossil fuel plants, wind or solar farms.

Like @teriyakiburns said energy sector is controlled by massive corporations that have hand in politics and 'education' see 'green coal' meme from years back. Anything that requires mass mining, drilling and strip mining spend more energy that is produced, not to mention the effect to local ecology. Closest and safest alternative are nuclear plants that are built according to western and not Chinese standards, that takes time. I don't know about you I prefer safety over convenience
 
ATM the North America has one growing season for subtropical and sub arctic plants. Europe has one growing season for sub arctic plants.

A warming climate of just two degrees C (which is THE HECKING END OF THE WORLD apparently) would give the USA TWO growing seasons for sub tropical plants (in the deep south) and TWO growing seasons for sub arctic crops (in the North). Minnesota can grow corn in the Summer, and Barley in the Winter as the glaringly obvious example. It would double food production and easily lead to an increase in avaialble food calories to support a growing population.

For Europe It would mean not only can they grow Wheat and Barley, but now they can ALSO grow Corn, Millet and Soybeans in way greater quantity then they can now. It would also open Scandinavia up as a fucking gold mine for food crop production, particularly sub arctic fruiting trees like Apples and Cherries. Even more critical, the melting of the Arctic Sea Ice would open up the Northwest passage, allowing for rapid transcontinental travel between Europe, North America and Asia, cutting shipping times by astronomical amounts. Arctic Facing Ports would become massively important. Such as Aberdeen, Bristol, Churchill, Nome and Rotterdam.
What about the lack of water from glaciers after they largely melted down? Hydropower generation depends on it. The Rhine river as a major shipping line needs it. Austrian and Switzerland tourism depend on it.

What about harvest loses and property damage by stronger flash floods since warmer air can absorb more water? What about the slowing down of the Gulf Stream?

You know that very rare resource that is unavailable to the western world. Only shitholes like China and middle east have issues getting clean water for electrolysis. Rare earths like fossil fuels are finite resource where water is abundant. (Your source shill for 'green' lithium by the way)

Far as I know water does not contain any coal, making the argument moot. Anyone with access to water with a decent electroyzer and tanks can build a self sustaining set up. By energy potential, hydrogen plants have older contemporaries beat by a mile. Which is the reason why countries that aren't retarded aim for hydrogen production and plants (Japan and Singapore). This technology is in its infancy and prove to be less resource intensive like fossil fuel plants, wind or solar farms.
You quoted the Hydrogen Energy Supply Chain Project. And they use the coal-to-hydrogen process.
"At the same time, the governments of Japan, Australia and Victoria are backing the Hydrogen Energy Supply Chain (HESC) project which will extract hydrogen from coal and capture and store CO2."
Maybe cite an actual green example of green hydrogen instead then. Japan, as an investor here, seems to join the league of retarded countries.

You also forgot one thing besides water that is needed. Electricity. For your 1 kg hydrogen you will need your 33 kWh of electricity as minimum input. With "losses" along the way it will more be in the range of 40-50 kWh.
 
What about the lack of water from glaciers after they largely melted down? Hydropower generation depends on it. The Rhine river as a major shipping line needs it. Austrian and Switzerland tourism depend on it.
Replaced by new economies/water sources. A warmer north Atlantic means increased precipitation production. Europe may even get to experience the infamous North American "nor-easters", which are fuck huge sub tropical thunder storms that materialize and are pushed along the trade winds.

Though I guess in Europe they would have to be called "South-westers" or something. You guys already get to experience this, as particularly powerful North American Hurricanes tend to make their way over to Western Europe as powerful storms. Glaciers don't provide the water for the eastern half of America. The Nor-easters do, and they are a product of the warm tropical air clashing with cooler arctic air.

Climate Change is just that. CHANGE. Its not the end of the fucking world. The earth actually goes through these cycles provably every 50 to 100,000 years. and more theoretically over the millions. Part of the reason the earth is "Warming" right now is because we are coming out of the most recent quaternary Ice age and the end of the Holocene Epoch. We are entering a more hot period yes.

But consider this. At the end of the Triassic Age, before the the current Age, the estimated average surface temperature was 122 to 140 degrees F in tropical areas. The average tropical temperature of the tropics on earth right now is 77 to 82 degrees F. Nowhere near the record highs of the Triassic age. And the average Triassic Surface temperatures are nowhere near the "Worst Case Scenarios" posited by climate alarmists either. In fact they exceed them by statistical orders of magnitude. So if the Climate alarmists are to be believed, all life should have ended at the end of the Jurassic Age (with an average tropical temperature of 50 f) due to stupendous amounts of global cooling averaging over 240% below median from the early Triassic Age.

In fact, the geologic record shows that the deep freeze, from the end of the the Mesozoic Era, with the Peak at the Triassic and the Nadir at the end of the Cretacious means that the earth warming up is a return to form from the Paleozoic Era. Its not like the earth has moved overly much in its Orbit, or Sol has changed output any in the intervening few million years. If anything this is just the earth healing from the late cretaceous ELE.
 
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What about the lack of water from glaciers after they largely melted down? Hydropower generation depends on it. The Rhine river as a major shipping line needs it. Austrian and Switzerland tourism depend on it.

Don't worry, plenty of coal and oil will become accessible as permafrost thaws.

Climate Change is just that. CHANGE. Its not the end of the fucking world.

To listen to the alarmists, the world must have been devoid of life during the Jurassic period.
 
But consider this. At the end of the Triassic Age, before the the current Age, the estimated average surface temperature was 122 to 140 degrees F in tropical areas. The average tropical temperature of the tropics on earth right now is 77 to 82 degrees F. Nowhere near the record highs of the Triassic age. And the average Triassic Surface temperatures are nowhere near the "Worst Case Scenarios" posited by climate alarmists either. In fact they exceed them by statistical orders of magnitude. So if the Climate alarmists are to be believed, all life should have ended at the end of the Jurassic Age (with an average tropical temperature of 50 f) due to stupendous amounts of global cooling averaging over 240% below median from the early Triassic Age.
While I have some skepticism surrounding climate alarmism, one key factor missing in the analysis here is time. During the Triassic, the Earth's continents were in a configuration where everything was one huge pole to pole landmass and the ocean was unbroken across 4/5 of the planet. So while temperatures in the tropics were unsurvivably high for most animals and plants, plenty of the landmass was at greater latitudes with more temperate climate. The planet warmed to this point over about 100,000 years marking the boundary of the Permian and Triassic periods, and it wiped out about 85% of all life.

Most of today's concern is packaged as fearmongering over the high temperatures, but as you mentioned, plenty of the planet will be fertile and livable were it to get significantly warmer. The thing to be concerned about is how quickly the temperature rises, as most of Earth's plant and animal species aren't going to be able to migrate or adapt to it over a period of 100 years, or 1,000, or even 10,000. We can, but they can't. And aside from domesticated animal stocks, we can't exactly move them either. As various species disappear, they break down the food chain in unpredictable ways that cause other species to die off, or pest and invasive species to multiply rapidly.

So a huge amount of species will go extinct in a very geologically abrupt manner, and that will have a massive impact on our own survivability. We rely on a lot of them to pollenate crops, control pests or balance soil nutrient and pH levels. A good number of our staple plant and animal crops aren't able to be farmed without them.

WE will survive. But our descendants might have to go centuries getting used to eating the cricket and soy burgers, lab grown spam, or whatever limited selections of staple foods we're still able to grow if a lot of them vanish.

It's the unpredictability 100-1000 years off which is what people are afraid of. We ourselves won't be around to see it, but most of us want our descendants and our species to be. Slowing the warming process down makes that future less unpredictable and improves the odds. The Permian-Triassic extinction event leading towards those hothouse Triassic temperatures, occurred over about 60,000 years, and was caused by massive volcanic eruptions. Our current pace of change as of now, if measured in atmospheric CO2 level increase over 250 years, is approximately 10 times faster and accelerating.
 
We ourselves won't be around to see it, but most of us want our descendants and our species to be.
Sure. But global warming alarmism has three primary political explanations. I will now use anecdotal statistics. This explanation represents 10% of them (1 out of 10).

4 out of 10(40%), say humanity is a cancer that needs to die (except for the few enlightened ones), and the remaining 5 out of 10 (50%) use global warming as a bullshit excuse to exercise political power for unrelated short term totalitarian objectives.

I fully agree that humanity is partially responsible for the acceleration of warming. We are releasing all the trapped carbon from the late Devonian Epoch, back when there was a fuck ton of carbon and plants evolved to suck it out of the atmosphere. Earth cooled off largely because of the evolution of photosynthetic life and their ability to turn Carbon into Oxygen. Burning coal and oil essentially resets the earths clock.

Where I disagree is on the principle that the end is nigh. There are things we can do, but the idea that we can stop global warming entirely is ludicrous. The earth is going to warm up no matter what we do. Even if we stop burning all fossil fuels it will STILL warm. And rapidly too, because now that the glaciers are almost gone and the arctic ice pack is receding the cycle out or the ice age is irreversible.
 
EVs lack that capability to develop.
What do you mean? EVs have come a long way, just not the traditional cars that people keep talking about. My parents have those mobility scooters and they're great. I see kids zipping around on electric scooters and go-karts all the time.

So my modus operandi is trying to keep our influence on the environment down towards a reasonable degree.
Agreed, but that's something that's largely out of my hands. I'm not the one flying private jets to attend a conference that could easily be done over Skype. I'm not the Karan's driving big American SUVs for the school run. It's not me putting up massive video billboards everywhere.

It's the unpredictability 100-1000 years off which is what people are afraid of.
Since when? I always hear "the world will be over 5 years from now unless we stop using fossil fuels and go back to living in mud huts!". It's why every environmental prediction from Inconvenient Truth to Gretta Thumberg tweets have to be memory holed when the date of the apocalypse is reached.
 
Since when? I always hear "the world will be over 5 years from now unless we stop using fossil fuels and go back to living in mud huts!". It's why every environmental prediction from Inconvenient Truth to Gretta Thumberg tweets have to be memory holed when the date of the apocalypse is reached.
The biggest retards are inevitably the loudest. The most sensible scientists I've seen takes from seem mostly concerned with where we'll be in 2100 and just trying to slow the pace of temperature rise, while acknowledging it's totally futile to expect people to simply stop burning hydrocarbons or eating cow. Change like that takes a generation or more.
 
A warmer north Atlantic means increased precipitation production.
YUP!
The return of El Nino has massively increased precipitation across western US.
For reference as to just how much precipitation has increased:
The Great Salt Lake is the largest inland sea in the western hemisphere.
It has risen 2 feet this year alone due to El Nino Rain Effects.
(for reference, the lake's median depth is 15 feet, 2 feet would be a 21% increase)

Btw: we should be rolling back every "clean air" reg to 1979 or so.
While choking on THICK smog isn't good for us, allowing a fine haze helps keep us cooler and improves condensation and rainfall.
It's very interesting how Georgia has been in a drought since the smog over the Atlanta Metro area cleaned up.
 
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You also forgot one thing besides water that is needed. Electricity. For your 1 kg hydrogen you will need your 33 kWh of electricity as minimum input. With "losses" along the way it will more be in the range of 40-50 kWh.
You keep conflating units. Stop calculating hydrogen in units of weight and comparing it to units of energy. If you wish to make a green hydrogen energy conversion argument, just make it already. This is, what, the 3rd post by now that you can't keep your units straight in?
 
For someone who believe he makes no difference, you are pretty interested in politics. Just a hobby, entertainment? Or does it make a difference there because the scale is just millions of people instead?
So. I've been pondering this for a while, and I think I have an answer.

Politics is not physics.

When I say "nothing I do will make a difference", it is not a matter of "belief", or a matter of "well everyone votes, so my vote doesn't make a difference" (as if voting is the sum-total of politics to begin with), but a matter of actually, physical capability. What I mean is this: Nothing I do is physically capable of making any difference to how much "carbon" is emitted in the world. First, the sum total of carbon dioxide emitted into the atmosphere by human activities is not fully quantified from direct measurements, but is in fact merely a highly educated guess, based on averages and assumptions about what is emitted in each sector. The human contribution is a fraction of the whole-earth total. My contribution is a fraction of a fraction of that fraction of the total. Because of this, my contribution is so infinitesimally tiny that it won't show up on any measurements, ever.

That's the entire problem with the entire global climate change hypothesis: it all rests on the arbitrary assignation of responsibility for infinitely tiny changes in the quantities of a trace gas that is necessary to all life on the planet. When you're dealing with fractions of a percent on a global scale, then anything I do is statistically non-existent; there are so many zeroes between it and the decimal that it literally does not matter. Even multiplied across the entire western population, the changes we're discussing are still statistically insignificant. We are all expected to make huge, life-changing sacrifices in order to bring about a difference that would be negated by a small schedule change in china's electricity production. Meanwhile, gigantic corporations and entire nations get to profit from the trade in emissions permits and carbon credits, in an entirely fictitious commodities market, through which they purchase the right to continue emitting potential gigatonnes of CO2, while backing government policies that require us plebs to constantly give up more and more of the things that make life bearable, in order to "reduce our impact" and "save the planet" by shaving mere kilograms off the CO2 we're calculated to have emitted that year.
 
As an aside, I finally figured out where the 2030 thing is from. It's pretty close to what @teriyakiburns mentioned just now, so I thought I'd share:


It's a Marxist op called Degrowth -- also known as "Net Zero" or "Sustainable economies" or "Build Back Better" or even "Absolute Zero." The idea is based on Marxist theories that Capitalism is unsustainable (note that this has never been shown to be true and like all other Marxist ideas it relies on you not questioning it at all) and thus Capitalism must be subverted and turned into a hybrid of Capitalism and Marxism called a circular economy -- that just so happens to let them have central planning and economies that are controlled by Marxists while otherwise ostensibly being capitalist... with them in charge forever because they're the elite caste.

The 2030 endpoint is when they hope to start pushing this batshit insane idea on everyone. They want everyone's economy in the west to shrink intentionally starting around 2030, and they need us all to shrink at the same time so there's no outliers to show their ideas are bullshit or worse, encourage people to reject their bullshit. But don't worry, your standard of living won't go down because you won't know any better -- and besides, they'll crash our population numbers through various tricks too, so it'll be easier to keep the remaining 10% of the population alive -- and more importantly, controlled and indoctrinated.

Of course, Communist economies like China will be immune.
 
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ATM the North America has one growing season for subtropical and sub arctic plants. Europe has one growing season for sub arctic plants.

A warming climate of just two degrees C (which is THE HECKING END OF THE WORLD apparently) would give the USA TWO growing seasons for sub tropical plants (in the deep south) and TWO growing seasons for sub arctic crops (in the North). Minnesota can grow corn in the Summer, and Barley in the Winter as the glaringly obvious example. It would double food production and easily lead to an increase in avaialble food calories to support a growing population.

For Europe It would mean not only can they grow Wheat and Barley, but now they can ALSO grow Corn, Millet and Soybeans in way greater quantity then they can now. It would also open Scandinavia up as a fucking gold mine for food crop production, particularly sub arctic fruiting trees like Apples and Cherries. Even more critical, the melting of the Arctic Sea Ice would open up the Northwest passage, allowing for rapid transcontinental travel between Europe, North America and Asia, cutting shipping times by astronomical amounts. Arctic Facing Ports would become massively important. Such as Aberdeen, Bristol, Churchill, Nome and Rotterdam.
Yes, more frequent droughts, desertification, heat waves, and wildfires is wonderful, I mean it was great back in the Medieval Warm Period, just ask the Toltecs and Tiwanaku. Totally worth saving a few bucks on your heating bill every winter or making it viable to farm in the middle of nowhere in Alaska (hey, at least the forests will be easier to clear when all the trees get killed by insect populations now able to thrive there) and spending billions of dollars on port facilities and the roads and railways needed to access them.
drive a gasoline car. like a normal person
IMO the electric car shit and its fancy cousin the hydrogen car are mostly scams to convince us to consoom new products like Tesla or that dumb hydrogen car Toyota made that nobody bought. Biofuels are used in basically every vehicle in Brazil for decades and they've long since solved the problem of ethanol engines being screwy in cold weather, but for some reason we aren't allowed to discuss them as the solution to fossil fuel use because growing corn for fuel is killing black people and other plants like GMO switchgrass or algae never get mentioned.
 
As an aside, I finally figured out where the 2030 thing is from. It's pretty close to what @teriyakiburns mentioned just now, so I thought I'd share:


It's a Marxist op called Degrowth -- also known as "Net Zero" or "Sustainable economies" or "Build Back Better" or even "Absolute Zero." The idea is based on Marxist theories that Capitalism is unsustainable (note that this has never been shown to be true and like all other Marxist ideas it relies on you not questioning it at all) and thus Capitalism must be subverted and turned into a hybrid of Capitalism and Marxism called a circular economy -- that just so happens to let them have central planning and economies that are controlled by Marxists while otherwise ostensibly being capitalist... with them in charge forever because they're the elite caste.

The 2030 endpoint is when they hope to start pushing this batshit insane idea on everyone. They want everyone's economy in the west to shrink intentionally starting around 2030, and they need us all to shrink at the same time so there's no outliers to show their ideas are bullshit or worse, encourage people to reject their bullshit. But don't worry, your standard of living won't go down because you won't know any better -- and besides, they'll crash our population numbers through various tricks too, so it'll be easier to keep the remaining 10% of the population alive -- and more importantly, controlled and indoctrinated.

Of course, Communist economies like China will be immune.
Are Marxists involved in the planning of this marxist economy?
 
As an aside, I finally figured out where the 2030 thing is from. It's pretty close to what @teriyakiburns mentioned just now, so I thought I'd share:


It's a Marxist op called Degrowth -- also known as "Net Zero" or "Sustainable economies" or "Build Back Better" or even "Absolute Zero." The idea is based on Marxist theories that Capitalism is unsustainable (note that this has never been shown to be true and like all other Marxist ideas it relies on you not questioning it at all) and thus Capitalism must be subverted and turned into a hybrid of Capitalism and Marxism called a circular economy -- that just so happens to let them have central planning and economies that are controlled by Marxists while otherwise ostensibly being capitalist... with them in charge forever because they're the elite caste.

The 2030 endpoint is when they hope to start pushing this batshit insane idea on everyone. They want everyone's economy in the west to shrink intentionally starting around 2030, and they need us all to shrink at the same time so there's no outliers to show their ideas are bullshit or worse, encourage people to reject their bullshit. But don't worry, your standard of living won't go down because you won't know any better -- and besides, they'll crash our population numbers through various tricks too, so it'll be easier to keep the remaining 10% of the population alive -- and more importantly, controlled and indoctrinated.

Of course, Communist economies like China will be immune.
Saying communism/socialism/Marxism is degrowth by definition, rejection of functional economical system, handing power to the "people" or the state who are throughly corrupt, breed nepotists and autocrats. Failing at science, rejecting nature of the man, tradition and environment. USSR single handedly thought it was smart to fill in largest inland waterbody to farm. Specifically the Aral Sea
There's a reason why CCCP and had go through revisions and try to unfuck falling perestroika movement, undoing Mao's great leap of mass starvation. Xi's CCP's economy is fucked in real estate, production, development, tourism and driving rich foreigners out of Shanghai, killing local buisiness. Western world is moving to Vietnam, India or local. Incoming global recession will be 2008 on steroids and DHT.

Anyone who lacks financial background and essential jobs, namely STEM. Losers with 2 year degree in politics/history/liberal arts/philosophy are fucked in breadlines.

Personally I'm investing gold bars, have cash in safe at home at all time, learning skills to be self sustainable, farming either animals or vegetables. Watching USSR falls and current generation retards who fail to apply basic chemistry to soil, animal feed, welfare and health.

In socialist and communal kolhol systems everything is shared, you don't own anything. I'm not interested providing goods and services to parasites. I'm pretty confident that anyone who shared my mindset and recession preparedness aren't interesting feeding tankie, unless crossbow bolts count.
 
Biofuels are used in basically every vehicle in Brazil for decades and they've long since solved the problem of ethanol engines being screwy in cold weather, but for some reason we aren't allowed to discuss them as the solution to fossil fuel use because growing corn for fuel is killing black people and other plants like GMO switchgrass or algae never get mentioned.
This always confused me. When people started to adopt "biofuels", ie. running diesel cars used chip fat that was just going to be poured down the drain anyway, the government stopped it. Likely because they weren't seeing any tax money from it. It always seemed like a sensible solution to the problem.

I also remember the trend for "liquid petroleum gas". aka LPG. aka propane. It was pitched as the next big thing. Clean, efficient, renewable, and cheap. A bunch of taxis got the conversation early on, a bunch of patrol stations started selling it, and then it just kind of disappeared. Supposedly it's still sold at some stations, but it's never mentioned as a viable alternative.
 
Where I disagree is on the principle that the end is nigh. There are things we can do, but the idea that we can stop global warming entirely is ludicrous. The earth is going to warm up no matter what we do. Even if we stop burning all fossil fuels it will STILL warm. And rapidly too, because now that the glaciers are almost gone and the arctic ice pack is receding the cycle out or the ice age is irreversible.
Another big problem is the melting permafrost. As it melts it releases methane, a greenhouse gas. Once a lot of these processes start, they're self-reinforcing on a level that we can't stop. It's retarded to think that any of this stuff will be the end of humanity. Like glacial-fed rivers. That's what ended the Indus Valley civilization way back at the dawn of history - the glacial-fed river dried up. Was the Indus Valley devoid of human life after that? No, civilization just reorganized itself to better adapt to the available level of water, and neighboring powers expanded their spheres of influence into that vacuum. If the Columbia River dried up after the glaciers all melted down, Eastern Washington would just start looking more like Eastern Oregon - no endless spread of vineyards and orchards. But other areas would become more wet, more fertile, or have longer growing seasons.

The flooding stuff is also retarded. You know what area has been flooding for thousands of years? East Asia. Did they all just throw up their hands, starve, and float down the river? No, they built infrastructure to harness the seasonal rains and grow a lot of food crops that require flooded paddy cultivation, like rice, water chestnut, or lotuses. I know with lotuses they even do joint agriculture-aquaculture in the pools, growing stuff like crawdads or fish. The ancient cities of the Khmer had crazy levels of infrastructure set up to capture and manage those seasonal floodwaters, and Angkor was once the largest city on earth. England is now growing sparkling wine at scale for the first time in ages, with Champagne houses making heavy investments there. And Champagne, historically, used to produce still wines - maybe they will again in the future. All of this shit will happen slowly enough that most people will be able to adapt and modify what they grow and how they grow it.

That is, unless the retarded green lunatics get their way and do things like banning meat and dairy production, which is my pet peeve. There's a reason that so much cheese is made in the Alps - lands at a certain steep grade, if they aren't terraced, are not suitable for traditional agriculture. And because we aren't under a feudal system anymore, under which most of the stone terraces that we use today were built, it doesn't make economic sense to make that big of an investment into farming land. If you try to turn the alpine grazing meadows over to traditional crops the soil will all wash away, or it is too thin, poor, and rocky to support traditional crops in the first place. There are whole classifications of soil, separated by both physical qualities and grade, which are only suited to grazing. If you take away that land use, you will either destroy that land's ability to support life or remove the economic incentive to preserve that nice wild grassland up in the mountains, which will be developed into ski chalets for rich assholes.

Same goes for trying to eliminate paper - the paper industry farms trees for paper. Rotational forestry gives an economic reason to keep that land forested, without that financial incentive the land would be cleared for farming or to build shitty townhouses for a bunch of pajeets (who will move into them from India and consume 100x the carbon they would have in their old country). And if the forests are coppiced, it's absurdly environmentally friendly - and coppicing is used for paper pulp production. Because the trees are cut back to the roots and then allowed to grow multiple trunks from the old root system every decade or so, the root system grows larger over time, sequestering carbon underground. But I constantly see these carbon-obsessed retards trying to replace all paper with shitty tablets or other electronics, which all rely on environmentally devastating rare earth mining and processing, and use electricity. This reduces the demand for paper drastically, therefore reducing the demand for land to be used in this very environmentally friendly way. And paper is much more easily recycled too. Just sheer idiocy, I have no patience for these morons.
 
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Saying communism/socialism/Marxism is degrowth by definition, rejection of functional economical system, handing power to the "people" or the state who are throughly corrupt, breed nepotists and autocrats. Failing at science, rejecting nature of the man, tradition and environment. USSR single handedly thought it was smart to fill in largest inland waterbody to farm. Specifically the Aral Sea
Sorry for double post, but the Aral Sea disaster was caused by the exact opposite of a degrowth mentality. The Soviets had really bizarre opinions about crops and agricultural science - see Lysenkoism and what they did to one of the greatest botanists of all time, Nikolai Vavilov, who ironically starved to death after his research saved millions from starvation. The Soviets refused to accept natural limits imposed on their growth, they thought that they could use the force of their ideology to bend nature to their will and force their nation to ascendancy. They basically ignored Bacon's maxim that nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed. They did the exact thing that I just ranted about - they took land that was traditionally pasture for a very good reason and transitioned it to irrigated farmland in order to fuel heavier population growth and resource output in the region. In the short term it worked, but the area was an endorheic basin - every gallon of water they drew off the Amu Darya was one less that flowed into the Aral Sea. The sea wasn't filled in, the amount of water flowing in was simply decreased until the salinity skyrocketed, the sea shrunk down to almost nothing, and all the fish died, destroying the economic sustenance of hundreds of communities along its shores. Israel is in the process of doing the exact same thing to the Dead Sea today, in order to support a huge population influx that the land can't sustain long term.
 
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