GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

What makes for good/bad motherboards these days? My last major build back in 2015 had a bad coil whine problem which I think was motherboard related. Yet I haven't seen coil whine or on board sound mentioned in any articles for years. Now they all talk about power delivery, M.2 cooling, and how many USB slots they have.

What OS is good? I was going to go Win 10 or 11 for VR games, but randos on the internet claim Win 11 is bad and Linux is the way to go.
There's plenty of good motherboards that are near silent, what is good is relative to what you're wanting to build I suppose. I have a Z590-E and it's silent.

Personally I use linux and I wouldn't even boot windows if every game I played worked flawlessly on it, hopefully eventually. I will use windows 10 until 11 has been out for a while, I tried it a bit recently and I had nothing but issues with it on a brand new laptop. Video playback was constantly fucky and It had issues with superfetch causing 100% disk usage for some reason. It may have been fixed with a patch by now, but I don't see any reason to update from 10.
What if i don't have a radiator? Just something else metal that touches the ground?
as long as you touch a grounded metal object to discharge your built up static you'll be fine.
 
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need to be careful because some of those dell monstrosities have non-industry standard oem PSU and mobo's.
The motherboard will be BTX so mounting it in a standard case(ATX) is not possible and mounting a new motherboard in the DELL case is not possible. And because the mobos are made to spec for that line of computers they might put things in places where they normally wouldn't be which can be a problem for larger expansion cards(like GPUs). If they have placed the SATA ports right behind the PCIe slot then angled low profile SATA cabled needs to be used, it will be a tight fit and it will look stupid but it should work. There's probably a drive cage placed in the lower right that makes it so a full sized GPU can't fit unless the cage is removed. That involves drilling out rivets.

From what I know modern ATX PSUs can safely replace the BTX ones since they're now compatible with each other. That might be different if it's a small form factor computer with a funky small form factor PSU. Replacing the PSU in a tower model should be perfectly safe and won't take more than 15 minutes with 10 of those minutes spent on trying to figure out why the damn thing doesn't want to slide out.

One potential power issue I've heard about is that the motherboard itself might not be built to deliver full power through the PCIe slot, after all it was built around the accessories DELL would put in there. Over provisioning power is part of the PCIe spec so it shouldn't matter but it might tax the board more. Frequent instability with GPU crashes or blue screens after installing a new GPU might be caused by a beefy card that sneakily relies on drawing way more power from the slot than it should, those have been made and sold in the past but it is not common.

Thank you for visiting the spergatorium.
 
I ended up getting a 3070 OC model. I like the performance but the heat is ridiculous. I ordered a liquid cooler for my CPU since it’s at 60c idle.
 
This is my take on Intel's current plans going from the current gen into the next few generations of chips which will bring us through 2024.

Here is Intel's past, current, and anticipated process history:

ProcessHistory.jpg

Currently Intel is on the 12th generation of the Core technology. The 12th generation is the largest change in CPU architecture for Intel in the Core series since the introduction of multiple cores-on-die with the Core Duo line of processors. With the 12th generation of core processors we saw the introduction of differential core types, which created a chip with multiple fundamentally different core architecture types on the same die, know as P & E cores. The P cores represent the type of cores we are used to, being high speed, main processor type cores. The E cores are meant to be used for background processes and other low-power tasks where efficiency for battery powered devices is more important than speed, which for their purposes isn't generally too important. Since all cores, up until the 12th generation were all the same (known as a symmetric core design) it generally didn't matter what core handled what since they were all capable of the same thing, so assigning tasks to any given core was simple. However, with differential core types, where tasks get assigned was now critical, since you want high priority/high demand tasks to go to the P cores, and unimportant/lower demand tasks to go to the E cores. This requires the introduction of new layer between the cores and the OS known as the "Intel Thread Director" which looks at what is coming down the pipeline and helps make sure things get assigned to the correct cores. The thread handler for the OS needs to be aware of the ITD in order to work with it correctly, which is why 12th generation Intel processors are only supported by Windows 11 since re-writing how the thread handler for an OS works in essentially a re-write of a truly core part of the OS (you can use 12th gen processors on Windows 10, but you will see reduced performance, generally only the P cores will be used with the E cores generally being ignored since the OS doesn't understand what they are).

This is the breakdown of the process history above and the changes that have and will be happening:


img_19021003391.jpg

Here is the roadmap broken down by generation:

s_8d767a8b317d4bd5939ebc08627e8e23.png


The above is a little out of date, but I haven't been able to find any updated graphics for the changes that were announced just recently but I will explain the changes to the above further down.

As you can see in the first image, Alder Lake is the current 12th generation processor, the first iteration of the hybrid P & E core architecture. In the second image you can see that Intel is going to be going back to their "Tick/Tock" cadence of processors rather than the "Process–Architecture–Optimization" cadence they have done since 2016 when they ran into trouble with the EUV lithography process and basically put out the same chip with minor refinements for 4 straight iterations. The 13th generation is going to be a refinement of the P & E architecture. If you want to get a system before Intel makes yet another major change to how their chips are designed, think about acquiring a 13th generation system. Starting with the 14th generation in 2023, Intel will again be making a large change to it's chip design in the 14th generation known as Meteor Lake. It will be moving from a monolithic "all cores, CPU/GPU/etc..., on a single die" process to a "tile architecture" design where the CPU will be one tile (or taking it even further, the P cores are on one tile, the E cores on another tile, etc...), the GPU will be another tile, the AI engine will be another tile, etc... with extremely high speed interlinks between them so they will work just like they are all on one die. The big advantage for Intel is that if one tile is crap, they just throw that one tile away and use another one, rather than throw out the entire chip, which is what they have to do now with the monolithic die design. It also allows Intel to easily make variations of chips just by changing the tiles used or update chips by just dropping a new version of a tile onto a chip. This is very similar to the way AMD builds its current CPU's. The refinement of the tile process will be in the 15th generation, known as Arrow Lake. If you didn't want to get a 13th generation CPU, and you still want to upgrade, I would strongly suggest you get a 15th generation CPU if you don't want to be beta testing Intel's newest hardware which is a fundamental re-engineering of processor design going forward.

The 15th generation will be the last generation of the Core series of chips. Intel will be introducing an entirely new series of chips based on a completely new fundamental re-engineering of their processor design starting in 2024 with Lunar Lake. This will be the first time Intel has fundamentally re-engineered their processors since the 1980's. It will basically re-arrange the 3 fundamental elements of a processor, the transistors (which do all the heavy lifting), the interconnects, and power delivery. A traditional interconnect technology sits on top of the transistor layer with all the power and signal wires integrated. Power and signal wires in the same space creates a design issues and leads to requirements that create a problem regarding spacing and also opens the door to a host of other issues such as interference, signal coupling, and power integrity issues. Ideally, signal and power lines would be completely separated.

This is a traditional chip design:

Trad.png


This is Intel's new design:

New.png


As you can see, this puts the transistors in the middle, with signal wires on one side, and power on the other. This should dramatically increase signal integrity and solve many issues of the intermingling of power and interconnect signaling. One thing Intel hasn't explained yet is how they plan to deal with heat dissipation. The first image that demonstrates a traditional design, you can think of that as being upside down, since chips typically have the transistor layer on top, and that is where the thermal interface material and the heatsink/cooling system is attached since the transistors are where all the heat is generated. With the transistors in the middle, you can see why thermal issues are a serious question. Apparently Intel thinks this is a non-issue, so they clearly have something in mind, but no one knows what for sure. This is why I suggested that people who want to stick to traditional designs get a 15th generation Arrow Lake system. Intel is known for not always getting its designs correct on their first try, while it is possible for them to absolutely knock it out of the park on the first shot, I honestly wouldn't trust it. This technology will premiere with the 16th generation, Lunar Lake. I would avoid it like the plague. If you want to go for the new design, wait until the 17th generation, Nova Lake since that will be the refined version of Lunar Lake with all the bugs worked out.

Since that roadmap was made, there has been an update. Intel has apparently been having more success than expected with their various efforts. They are now looking to have Nova Lake in Q4 of 2024, rather than 2025.

Beyond this, no one knows anything, or at least they aren't sharing, since Intel itself just lists it as "Next" with no information.

So, to summarize, if you want a truly traditional processor design that represents the way processors have been made for the last 11 generations, you'll want to grab an 11th generation Intel processor before they are completely displaced by the 12th generation. If you want a system that uses the P & E hybrid core system, wait until the 13th gen systems come out later this year if you can, since this will (hopefully) fix the major issues that have been encountered in some of the 12th gen systems. If you want one of the last of the traditionally designed processors, or just aren't interested in beta testing Intel's latest gamble on processor engineering, I strongly recommend a 15th gen system, which is a refinement of the anticipated "tile" CPU design. If you love the bleeding edge and love trying out new shit, aim for the 17th generation, it will be the version of RibbonFET & PowerVia fundamental processor re-engineering after all the bugs are worked out of the 16th generation, which represents the first generation of the fundamental re-engineering.

Hopefully at least a few people here will find this post useful.
 
The motherboard will be BTX so mounting it in a standard case(ATX) is not possible and mounting a new motherboard in the DELL case is not possible. And because the mobos are made to spec for that line of computers they might put things in places where they normally wouldn't be which can be a problem for larger expansion cards(like GPUs). If they have placed the SATA ports right behind the PCIe slot then angled low profile SATA cabled needs to be used, it will be a tight fit and it will look stupid but it should work. There's probably a drive cage placed in the lower right that makes it so a full sized GPU can't fit unless the cage is removed. That involves drilling out rivets.

From what I know modern ATX PSUs can safely replace the BTX ones since they're now compatible with each other. That might be different if it's a small form factor computer with a funky small form factor PSU. Replacing the PSU in a tower model should be perfectly safe and won't take more than 15 minutes with 10 of those minutes spent on trying to figure out why the damn thing doesn't want to slide out.

One potential power issue I've heard about is that the motherboard itself might not be built to deliver full power through the PCIe slot, after all it was built around the accessories DELL would put in there. Over provisioning power is part of the PCIe spec so it shouldn't matter but it might tax the board more. Frequent instability with GPU crashes or blue screens after installing a new GPU might be caused by a beefy card that sneakily relies on drawing way more power from the slot than it should, those have been made and sold in the past but it is not common.

Thank you for visiting the spergatorium.
Highly unlikely to be BTX. Dell ceased usage of BTX in 2009 with the optiplex 780. Starting with the 790 they moved to micro ATX.

This would be a lot easier to answer if we had a model number. Mini tower dells from the mid 2010s can be used with standard motherboards with a simple number extender for the front panel, and take normal ATX PSUs.
 
Decided to go with an after market air cooler and reworked the air intake in my case which made a significant improvement. I’m now idling at 35c and load hits about 60c. The only issue I have is that I should have gone with a bigger motherboard because it’s a tight squeeze.
 
Anyone know if the PNY Technologies brand is trustworthy? Found a 3060 under 500 ($489) dollars at B&H.
 
Bah, changed my mind! I'm switching to AMD since their 6600xt is available only for $20 more than the 3060 I saw on Newegg!
But muh poorly implemented ray tracing that requires dlss to function or my CUDA that suddenly everyone cares about! Think about the NVENC! We all know everyone is just around the corner from making it big as a livestreamer!

But for real, welcome to the raw horsepower club.
 

Thanks for throwing the monkey's wrench AMD, now I gotta wait for another 2 years and have to re-evaluate my PC wishlist. Still, this should give you a good reason to pick Ryzen than Intel's energy-eating CPUs.
 

Thanks for throwing the monkey's wrench AMD, now I gotta wait for another 2 years and have to re-evaluate my PC wishlist. Still, this should give you a good reason to pick Ryzen than Intel's energy-eating CPUs.
Let's see how many 5800X3D's are made first, and that this wasn't a paper launch to fight with Intel.
 
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It's kind of nice the GPU market is reverting to some semblance of normality. Managed to finally snag 3080 in a 12BG Ventus 3X for ~$1200 CAD which is probably $200 more than it's worth (especially given the cooling), but I'm just happy knowing I'm now future-proofed for the next ~5 years. Fully expecting the RTX 4000 series to play out exactly as the RTX 3000 series release went.
 
I won't believe that the market is back to normal until I can get a mid-range card for between 200 and $300. That's what I used to always do before this shit started. I never wanted high-end shit, just a competent card. Now I'm stuck on some 6-year-old piece of shit because there literally is nothing else affordable without paying 750 or more, or accepting a downgrade.
 
I won't believe that the market is back to normal until I can get a mid-range card for between 200 and $300. That's what I used to always do before this shit started. I never wanted high-end shit, just a competent card. Now I'm stuck on some 6-year-old piece of shit because there literally is nothing else affordable without paying 750 or more, or accepting a downgrade.
We're nearing the MSRPs which were already high. Progress!

So what are the lowest cards that qualify as mid-range for you or boost performance over your current GPU? RX 6600 and the RTX 3060 both have a $329 MSRP. The 12 GB of VRAM on the 3060 might prevent it from dipping below that anytime soon though.
 
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