GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

[Judge Dredd]

Newbie question: I'm mainly going to be on the 1080p camp for quite a while (room isn't big enough; I'd have to do some autistic thinking to make things fit as it is,) so should I focus on getting a good CPU or GPU? I'm going for a 5600x and a 6600XT build.

It depends on what you're doing and what standard you have. Both seem to be good options though.

If space is a problem (it is for me) then maybe looking at small form factor computers would be better?

 

[Overly Serious]

Well yeah, if the 15% includes clock speeds then there's pretty much zero IPC gain, which given they bumped L2 to 1mb means they fucked the cache latency somehow.

I'm not saying it does nothing for IPC but my understanding is that the big gain from doubling the L2 is that is reduces load on the interconnects in the CPU meaning less contention between the cores. So don't think of it as enhancing single-threaded performance so much as it improves the ability of multiple cores to play nicely with each other.

Separately, I think these look pretty good. I think the move to always have a GPU in the processor is a good thing - now every Ryzen 4 CPU is an APU. Going to be great in the business and none-gaming market and even for those of us who likely will have a discrete GPU it's not all about the graphics. That GPU core is likely what will be used in the AI instructions that are now included and which they talked about.

I'm pretty optimistic about these chips and if business goes well this year I might consider upgrading. I don't need to but I use my computer daily for work so even small improvements in my productivity make an upgrade somewhat justifiable. Plus they'll support nested virtualisation which the older Ryzen chips do not - and whilst most people don't need that if you do need it, you need it.

 

[Solus]

I've been wondering about CG animation work and weather to go with newer AMD chips for stick with Intel.
When it comes to working in Maya animating and rendering is an AMD rig with an Nvida gpu not a great combo?

Trying to figure out what's the best bang for my buck with medium level animation

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

I've been wondering about CG animation work and weather to go with newer AMD chips for stick with Intel.
When it comes to working in Maya animating and rendering is an AMD rig with an Nvida gpu not a great combo?

Trying to figure out what's the best bang for my buck with medium level animation

AMD has the better bang for the buck on the CPU side but Nvidia have CUDA on the GPU side. AMD+Nvidia is absolutely fine.

 

[thejackal]

Dude I'm seeing 2080s going for around $400 on Ebay. 3060s are down to similar. FINALLY!

When 13th gen Intel comes out I'm finally upgrading my Ryzen 2700x build. Gonna go with 13th gen i5 unlocked and probably a 3060. Big upgrades for me coming from a 1060 and the 2700x. I overclocked it to 4.4ghz and it's still struggling in Rust. I always think I'm going to need some crazy multi tasking CPU and then it turns out the i5 is always more than enough power for whatever I want to do. I'm really not ever going to be using all the cores and threads in my 2700x gimme that pure single core performance.

 

[bigoogabaloogas]

If space is a problem (it is for me) then maybe looking at small form factor computers would be better?

Actually, looking into my room and actually visualizing things, I can make things work by essentially moving things around. I just want my desk in a position that doesn't have me showing my back to the door (no locks) since I'm a paranoid motherfucker.
also this is my first time building a pc so i don't think i should start with a small form factor pc

 

[Just Some Other Guy]

also this is my first time building a pc so i don't think i should start with a small form factor pc

Agreed. Many more problems to run into with sizing/cable management/ air flow, etc when you go SFF. Start with a well designed mid tower and a good micro ATX (not ITX) board. That will give your fingers plenty of room to move around.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

Actually, looking into my room and actually visualizing things, I can make things work by essentially moving things around. I just want my desk in a position that doesn't have me showing my back to the door (no locks) since I'm a paranoid motherfucker.
also this is my first time building a pc so i don't think i should start with a small form factor pc

Don't forget that you can tip the case over and use it as a monitor stand(just lower the monitor to make up for it) or mount it under the desk(I'm pretty sure IKEA sells brackets for that). As posted above said, mITX and a mid tower seems to be just right for you. It's not actually hard to build a computer like that, just take your time and don't stress out.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

AMD changed their mind about the power limits:

https://wccftech.com/amd-corrects-itself-confirms-up-to-170w-tdp-for-ryzen-7000-desktop-cpus-up-to-230w-package-power-for-am5-socket/

Update: Robert Hallock has confirmed that the AMD Ryzen 7000 Desktop CPUs will have SKUs that go up to 170W TDP and 230W PPT. He also states over at Reddit that the 16-Core prototype that is used at Computex 2022 was not fused to specific power/TDP values but was operating in a range below the 170W TDP figure.

According to the new details, AMD is confirming that the Ryzen 7000 Desktop CPUs indeed have a TDP of up to 170W despite other reps claiming that the TDP would be 125W. This means that the package power has also gone up with the AM5 socket now rated to support up to 230W of package-specific power. That's a 1.35x increase over the TDP which has also been the case with AMD's older Ryzen CPUs on the AM4 socket.

For comparison, the AMD Ryzen 5000 Desktop CPUs feature a maximum TDP of 105W & a package power of up to 142W. This means that the new Ryzen 7000 Desktop CPUs will come with a 65 Watt increase to the TDP and an 88W increase to the maximum package power limit. Now the previous statement released by Robert Hallock during PCWorld's 'Full Nerd' interview is also true but only if we use a 125W Ryzen 7000 SKU. Those chips will have a maximum package power of up to 170W.

It sounds like they could crank the 16-core up by another 100-200 MHz, but they have put out so much misleading info it's best to wait and see.

 

[bigoogabaloogas]

Don't forget that you can tip the case over and use it as a monitor stand(just lower the monitor to make up for it) or mount it under the desk(I'm pretty sure IKEA sells brackets for that). As posted above said, mITX and a mid tower seems to be just right for you. It's not actually hard to build a computer like that, just take your time and don't stress out.

lmao too late for that. bought phanteks' enthoo pro (a full atx tower) and underestimated how big the bad boy is. still going with it, though, since it looks pretty professional. i'll just look for desks that can hold the bad boy on amazon

 

[Judge Dredd]

Don't forget that you can tip the case over and use it as a monitor stand(just lower the monitor to make up for it) or mount it under the desk(I'm pretty sure IKEA sells brackets for that). As posted above said, mITX and a mid tower seems to be just right for you. It's not actually hard to build a computer like that, just take your time and don't stress out.

I was considering a horizontal case for my build, but wasn't sure if that was still a thing people did, or if the whole "put it under the monitor" plan didn't work out in practice.

I also considered a small form factor build, but the increase in prices seems to be not worth it. Adding £100 to the cost for a smaller power supply seems excessive. And ITX boards don't have a second PCI slot, so you have to use Sata drives, which are larger. Yet ATX boards do allow a NVME card that holds extra drives, saving space.

AMD changed their mind about the power limits:

https://wccftech.com/amd-corrects-itself-confirms-up-to-170w-tdp-for-ryzen-7000-desktop-cpus-up-to-230w-package-power-for-am5-socket/

It sounds like they could crank the 16-core up by another 100-200 MHz, but they have put out so much misleading info it's best to wait and see.

I don't understand CPU enthusiasts on this. I'm guessing it's fanboy bullshit, but nVidia and and AMD increase power it's a bad thing. Intel increases power that's a nothing burger. I don't get it.

 

[AmpleApricots]

There's a full size ATX desktop case by silverstone, which reminds me in a distant way of the A2000.
--
I got the Node 202 and put the 13.3" screen on top with one of the fancier tablet stands that allow me to turn the screen sideways without too much trouble. I'm glad I got a SFX power supply with modular cables because otherwise this case would've been a giant PITA. Interesting about the case is that the power supply is actually in the front and the power is actually routed from the back to the front via a cable internally. I could imagine shape and length-wise this might not work with every sfx power supply there is.

The fan placement on the graphics card side is kinda meh and I think in horizontal configuration they will not do too much, the case is too low for that. It probably makes sense to skip these fans altogether and get a graphics card with a blower type fan and I think most reviews you see online people complaining about bad heat transfer is because they have GPUs with open fans. (heat has nowhere really to go in this case if horizontal) I have a Noctua NH-L9a-AM4 on a 65W TDP CPU and it gets exactly as hot as in the bigger case. I expected as much as the fan can directly blow the hot air out at the top. No problem with HDD installs as I have a 2 TB m.2 drive in this system. I plan to put a small 2.5" mechanical drive into the drive cage for cheap data storage.

I think most complaints online about heat problems stem from people either putting the wrong type of GPU into this case or too high TDP Processors where a low profile CPU heatsink has no chance of keeping it in a good range.

The case itself is well made and doesn't feel cheap. White power LED, you don't see that too often. From my feeling, in a horizontal configuration this case probably can accommodate heavier screens on top without being damaged. A normal 24" screen with LED backlight should be possible too, it'd be important not to cover up the vent of the CPU with the stand though. I actually think the case can probably accomodate even bigger screens but I feel the stand might either not fit or the screen might be in danger of toppling over.

I also don't know about the noise and how it will be sitting right in front of the computer when it's doing hard work with a graphics card as during an intense game, as I have no graphics card yet. I do have the Sony WH-1000XM4 active noise canceling headphones though, which filter these kinds of sounds almost completely. I can only recommend them, costly though!

This computer now almost exactly looks like how I imagined my computer in the 20s to look like in the 90s.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

I was considering a horizontal case for my build, but wasn't sure if that was still a thing people did, or if the whole "put it under the monitor" plan didn't work out in practice.

I also considered a small form factor build, but the increase in prices seems to be not worth it. Adding £100 to the cost for a smaller power supply seems excessive. And ITX boards don't have a second PCI slot, so you have to use Sata drives, which are larger. Yet ATX boards do allow a NVME card that holds extra drives, saving space.

If you go mITX and mid tower and lay it on its side it will be an ~inch and a half taller than a DVD-drive and have more PCIe slots(2 full, when small). When I dual-screened my laptop the external monitor could be lowered to be around the same height as the laptop monitor, the bezel was touching the desk in other words, so putting a monitor on top of a sideways tower and dropping it down is possible.

There are slimmer cases where you use PCIe riser cables for graphics cards etc to get everything on the same plane as well, to keep it slim.

 

[Stasi]

I got the Node 202

I googled it to see what it looks like and got this. Just...why? Why do that?

Probably done by the same sped from /g/ that cut a hole in one of those SFF optiplex machine to stick a full size GPU in there.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

I also considered a small form factor build, but the increase in prices seems to be not worth it. Adding £100 to the cost for a smaller power supply seems excessive. And ITX boards don't have a second PCI slot, so you have to use Sata drives, which are larger. Yet ATX boards do allow a NVME card that holds extra drives, saving space.

I don't understand CPU enthusiasts on this. I'm guessing it's fanboy bullshit, but nVidia and and AMD increase power it's a bad thing. Intel increases power that's a nothing burger. I don't get it.

It would be nice if smaller == cheaper, as it should be, but adding 10% to the cost might be worth it. I would seriously think about it as APU systems without a discrete GPU will be good enough soon.

The GPU power increases that Nvidia is supposedly planning are of a different scale than CPU increases. 450-600 Watts is pretty absurd and could cause problems. On the other hand, that is probably only for a 4090 Ti.

AMD is completely justified in following Intel's lead and upping power limits for AM5, and it won't be every CPU using over 170 Watts. Just the 16-core and future flagships.

Alder Lake actually doesn't use that much power... in gaming. Multi-threaded workloads are where it gets absurd, because you can actually run every core as fast as possible.

 

[Judge Dredd]

It would be nice if smaller == cheaper, as it should be, but adding 10% to the cost might be worth it.

If it was just 10%, I might consider it, but when it's close to an extra £100 for the PSU, £100 for a case, we're already at 20% of a £1000 build. Plus there's limited options for cooling, drives, and what GPU you can have (low profile cards tend to cost more these days, and only entry level cards have them at all). I keep flip flopping on it.

I would seriously think about it as APU systems without a discrete GPU will be good enough soon.

Agreed. I'm hyped for AM5 for that reason. The inclusion of a RDNA2 APU in all AM5 chips is certainly an interesting move. Unfortunately the insane prices for DDR5 make that not really a valid option for now.

I want to try VR when the Deckard comes out, so a APU won't cut it. I'll want a 6700/3070 or higher since I'll be needing to run 1440p (or 4k) at 90+ fps. (the deckard will likely be 2k x 2k per eye, but there's a lot of tricks to keep the framerate up). I'm planning to build in June, but I'm not sure what to do for a gpu since the 40x0 series releases soon and I might as well wait, or I could get a 6600 (or stick with my 1060) and get a new GPU when Deckard releases.

I also dabble in video work as a hobby. Modern CPUs are fast enough to run x264 in real time, but I'm really interested in AV1. It's why I'm interested in ARC. I don't know how practical it would be to have two gpus, one for running games, and one just for video compression. I'm also tempted to build a small form factor APU machine late this year or early next year that is just an emulation and video capture box, but that's a long way off.

 

[thejackal]

Probably late AF but the M1 is an amazing chip. Maybe I posted about it myself when it first came out about 18 months ago but I love my Mac Mini. I have a ton of other hardware but the Mini is just a really awesome slick machine. I got it on sale for $599 and hooked it up to a 1440p 32" monitor. It's the perfect side office computer.

 

[Smaug's Smokey Hole]

I also dabble in video work as a hobby. Modern CPUs are fast enough to run x264 in real time, but I'm really interested in AV1. It's why I'm interested in ARC. I don't know how practical it would be to have two gpus, one for running games, and one just for video compression. I'm also tempted to build a small form factor APU machine late this year or early next year that is just an emulation and video capture box, but that's a long way off.

Depending on what you use the program for it might stick to the lowest common denominator when it comes to VRAM and using GPUs in parallel. Or if the program is good you can select only one of them for compute, but who knows.

And dealing with AV1/VP9 sources is just a pain in the ass, re-encode everything into something like ProRes or even TARGA for better performance(at the expense of storage space).

 

[Just Some Other Guy]

Probably late AF but the M1 is an amazing chip. Maybe I posted about it myself when it first came out about 18 months ago but I love my Mac Mini. I have a ton of other hardware but the Mini is just a really awesome slick machine. I got it on sale for $599 and hooked it up to a 1440p 32" monitor. It's the perfect side office computer.

Gonna have to pass on the Apple stuff.

 

[thejackal]

Gonna have to pass on the Apple stuff.

I don't blame you but it's a pretty amazing technical achievement in chip making. The memory management and graphics prowess given the power requirements are impressive. It's the first Apple PC worth buying in a long ass time. I loathe almost everything Apple myself.