Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

  • Happy Easter!

Do you believe that this series will turn to shit?


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Moxie: "For the last time - How do you know Hitler?"
Blitzo: "Oh me and him go bowling with Goering on Tuesdays"
Moxie: "With Goering? ...Last I heard he weighed over a ton"
Blitzo: "Yeah I know, makes it hard to miss the pins"

Give me the screenwriting job Viv. First script is on me.
 
I think what really gets me about Hazbin now is that it's the defacto "Emperor has no clothes" moment in animation. After people grew so tired of the Cal-arts art style, Vivzie and her supporters were hyping this up as the next big step in animation. "An indie animated pilot that's fully complete? Already has a built-in fanbase? It got picked up? Looks we have our next "Simpsons", "South Park", or even "Steven Universe.""

The show is ultimately the culmination of the lengths the Tumblr generation is willing to go to recreate Steven Universe/Jailbreak. You want to push the envelope so far, that you're willing to literally set a show in Hell and be all like "See? Demons aren't actually evil, it's those bigoted angels who are mean and misunderstanding!" And what does Vivzie ultimately have to show for it? Barely anything, really.

The actual formula/solution for being "edgy" in [current year] is, dare I say it, right in front of you, but no one is willing to muster up the courage to go through with it.
 
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You want to push the envelope so far, that you're willing to literally set a show in Hell and be all like "See? Demons aren't actually evil, it's those bigoted angels who are mean and misunderstanding!"
Considering it was 2019 when the pilot came out, was that concept even pushing the envelope at all? Last I heard, she already had an Anti-Christ figure in that Zoophobia comic of hers, and he was a good guy, though I don’t have enough knowledge to say for sure, but it does prove that so it’s not like this was the first time she used the Anti-Christ.

Thinking about it more broadly, how many anime's had the Church expy be corrupt? How many pieces of media showed heaven being so unreasonable with their commandments, or if not that, it’s the ‘bigots’ that are misreading the bible and the commandments to spread their hate and the churches just despise the gays. (Never mind the consequences we are reaping currently with throwing those commandments out for the three Commandments of the LGBT Cult: Thou Shalt Celebrate what I do in the bedroom, Thou Shalt Show Children things that will confuse them, and the thing that will be the next lobotomy ‘How could anyone have supported this’ question, Thou Shalt allow people and children to cut off their own dicks or mutilate their bodies for a delusion)

Hell, South Park turned Satan into a Disney Princess in their movie in 1999. They turned him into Ariel with his goals, complete with a banger of a song. Hell, the Golden Compass asshole killed God, and though I don’t recall the movie’s name, there was a film where St. Michael rebels against God, and in the end, ends up being in the right for doing so.

My question is, when is the last time we had something where the Angels and Heaven in general were just the good-guys in a non-subversive way?
The actual formula/solution for being "edgy" in [current year] is, dare I say it, right in front of you, but no one is willing to muster up the courage to go through with it.
Please explain for those of us in the back, I’m curious. The only way that I can think of a solution is classical heroism and rising to the occasion, humility in admitting faults and then rising above those flaws, and then a nice straight romance rooted in traditional gender-roles
 
I think what really gets me about Hazbin now is that it's the defacto "Emperor has no clothes" moment in animation. After people grew so tired of the Cal-arts art style, Vivzie and her supporters were hyping this up as the next big step in animation. "An indie animated pilot that's fully complete? Already has a built-in fanbase? It got picked up? Looks we have our next "Simpsons", "South Park", or even "Steven Universe.""

The show is ultimately the culmination of the lengths the Tumblr generation is willing to go to recreate Steven Universe/Jailbreak. You want to push the envelope so far, that you're willing to literally set a show in Hell and be all like "See? Demons aren't actually evil, it's those bigoted angels who are mean and misunderstanding!" And what does Vivzie ultimately have to show for it? Barely anything, really.

The actual formula/solution for being "edgy" in [current year] is, dare I say it, right in front of you, but no one is willing to muster up the courage to go through with it.
The animation is nice and fluid, but a lot of the designs are crude and the writing is abysmal. Not only is the whole twist one we've seen over a dozen times with demons being good and angels being bad, but the comedy is all just sex jokes and swearing. I think Vivzie would have been a great director for animation guidance, or someone who'd help design a really good program for fluid animation, but her actual art kind of sucks and she can't write for shit. Oh, and the consistency is non existent, everyone is as good or as bad as the plot demands in the moment, which is fine if all episodes are self contained, but in a story that spans a season or more it's just confusing.
 
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Last I heard, she already had an Anti-Christ figure in that Zoophobia comic of hers, and he was a good guy,
Hell, South Park turned Satan into a Disney Princess in their movie in 1999. They turned him into Ariel with his goals, complete with a banger of a song.
Funny thing about that....Viv literally recycled Satan's plot from the South Park movie for Damian's story in ZP.
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My question is, when is the last time we had something where the Angels and Heaven in general were just the good-guys in a non-subversive way?
FAITH: The Unholy Trinity
While the protagonist John Ward is initially presented as maybe potentially mentally ill, it eventually becomes clear that the demonic threats he's facing are very much real. Also, though some of them are flawed, all of the Christians are shown to be good-meaning and genuinely badass when the situation calls for it (see basically everything John deals with and Garcia blowing Gary's head off with a shotgun). For that matter, God himself makes an appearance and empowers John for the true final boss. Meanwhile, all of the demons & satanic cultists you face are shown to be objectively evil pieces of shit, and banishing them is treated as a necessary, if insanely taxing, job.

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Please explain for those of us in the back, I’m curious. The only way that I can think of a solution is classical heroism and rising to the occasion, humility in admitting faults and then rising above those flaws, and then a nice straight romance rooted in traditional gender-roles
There's two ways to go about it, the method you mentioned and making fun of, insulting, or vilifying LGBT people and/or minorities, and going against the grain pushed by progressives.
 
though I don’t recall the movie’s name, there was a film where St. Michael rebels against God, and in the end, ends up being in the right for doing so.
That was Legion, which took the "protect female character who is carrying humanity's only hope" from the first Terminator and replaced Skynet with God. I recall it got a TV show sequel that only lasted two seasons.
 
There's two ways to go about it, the method you mentioned and making fun of, insulting, or vilifying LGBT people and/or minorities, and going against the grain pushed by progressives.
Oh, that would go against the grain, it would also take balls of titanium to do make fun of them, let alone Insulting and vilifying them, especially when you’re as white as Viv. Target rich environment to be sure though, someone just needs to take a fucking shot at the concept. Even harder, they have to make it good and entertaining.
FAITH: The Unholy Trinity
While the protagonist John Ward is initially presented as maybe potentially mentally ill, it eventually becomes clear that the demonic threats he's facing are very much real. Also, though some of them are flawed, all of the Christians are shown to be good-meaning and genuinely badass when the situation calls for it (see basically everything John deals with and Garcia blowing Gary's head off with a shotgun). For that matter, God himself makes an appearance and empowers John for the true final boss. Meanwhile, all of the demons & satanic cultists you face are shown to be objectively evil pieces of shit, and banishing them is treated as a necessary, if insanely taxing, job.

Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll have to look this up.
That was Legion, which took the "protect female character who is carrying humanity's only hope" from the first Terminator and replaced Skynet with God. I recall it got a TV show sequel that only lasted two seasons.
Thank you! That was it. Did not know about the sequel though.
 
Funny thing about that....Viv literally recycled Satan's plot from the South Park movie for Damian's story in ZP.
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I have never read comic before, I have heard bad things about the comic, IE, it couldn’t stick to the original premise of Girl afraid of animals is taken to a world filled with talking animals. Also, said girl is a background character apparently despite being responsible for the Title. (Proof she has not grown as a writer).

Reading this one page I want to smack this kid, scream, ‘Man the fuck up’ at him, and tell him to do as demons do, and rebel. Why is the son of the devil, stammering, shifting, and apologizing to his mommy? This is the one character that should embody chaos and rebellion, why is he pathetic here?
 
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I have never read comic before, I have heard bad things about the comic, IE, it couldn’t stick to the original premise of Girl afraid of animals is taken to a world filled with talking animals. Also, said girl is a background character apparently despite being responsible for the Title. (Proof she has not grown as a writer).
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you pretty much hit the nail on the head.
 
This is a bit off-topic, but this thought has crossed my mind a few times while reading this thread:

How would you go about redeeming characters that commit the most heinous of crimes in this show? And I'm mostly referring to crimes that the Fandom would absolutely throw a fit over if the show even attempted to redeem said Sinner (ex: pedophiles, dictators, cult leaders, rapists, slave owners, etc.). Of course, Viv would never do this because she is "safe edgy", but I was curious to know how you all would go about it.
 
This is a bit off-topic, but this thought has crossed my mind a few times while reading this thread:

How would you go about redeeming characters that commit the most heinous of crimes in this show? And I'm mostly referring to crimes that the Fandom would absolutely throw a fit over if the show even attempted to redeem said Sinner (ex: pedophiles, dictators, cult leaders, rapists, slave owners, etc.). Of course, Viv would never do this because she is "safe edgy", but I was curious to know how you all would go about it.
Dictator/cult leader/slave owner you could potentially do, depending on how bad their actual acts were. If we're talking fictionalized versions, you could definitely tone it down or set it against a backdrop where it isn't that bad in comparison. Like, a dictator who more or less inherited the role in a dystopian setting where everything sucks, loses power, then realizes the error of their ways and dedicates the rest of their life to making it better. Maybe heroically sacrifices themselves at the end to do something that makes the world less dystopian.

Slave owner is probably the easier one, especially if it's a younger character and the story is about them learning why slavery is wrong and as they grow up, they fight for change. Again, also works better in a fictionalized setting.

I think it basically boils down to:
As sympathetic of a backstory as possible. Victim of abuse, someone indoctrinated to go down whatever path they went, tried to get out of it because they fell in love only to have that love weaponized against them etc.

Have them lose everything, realize the error of their ways, then get dragged through the mud the rest of the story while doing everything they can to undo their previous crimes/make the world a better place. Pitting them against someone who is way worse than them also helps

If they still feel unsympathetic, sacrifice them at the end and hope that's enough.

But if we're talking more like...real world examples, that's a lot harder. It's not impossible for some of those groups, but not something I'd really want to set out to do. With rapists and pedos, I don't know if there's really a world anyone could pull off a convincing redemption story for them.

But in terms of like, the Hazbin setting...I actually think Viv was right not to try and redeem those types of people. Or even focusing on them at all. What was wrong was the baffling world building that they're apparently so evil, Hell just erases their souls entirely instead of punishing them, which, you know, is supposed to be the whole point of Hell. If I was writing the show, I'd use an alias because I wouldn't want my name associated with it at all and I'd probably resort to heavy drinking to justify sticking around for the paycheck.

But after that, I'd include a throwaway line about people like that being in the darkest pits of hell or something, maybe even say the "saveable" souls shouldn't be in the same place as those monsters. Could even have an episode where someone tries to break Charlie's spirits by convincing someone like that to go to the hotel and be completely irredeemable, but then have Vaggie or Husk or someone who is arguably more practical basically teach her not everyone can be saved/don't focus on her failures/don't put all this time and energy into someone who can't be helped when she could instead be focusing on the ones who can/want to be saved. Maybe even have Charlie flip it around as an argument later on, where she admits to the angels she knows not everyone can be saved and she's not proposing just sending everyone up to heaven, but then pointing out is it really fair to have someone whose only crime is being a drug addict suffering the same eternal punishment as someone who lusted after kids.
 
This is a bit off-topic, but this thought has crossed my mind a few times while reading this thread:

How would you go about redeeming characters that commit the most heinous of crimes in this show? And I'm mostly referring to crimes that the Fandom would absolutely throw a fit over if the show even attempted to redeem said Sinner (ex: pedophiles, dictators, cult leaders, rapists, slave owners, etc.). Of course, Viv would never do this because she is "safe edgy", but I was curious to know how you all would go about it.
There’s a lot of what if to those types of sinners. It’s hard and I don’t imagine I would want to even try to write that story.

If I had to do it generally though in the context of HH? I would do something like C.S. Lewis did in the Great Divorce.

Have the target character any of the aforementioned sinner be knee deep in their sin at the Hotel. Since this takes place in HH, the room the sinner occupies simulates their sin in an environment that it is doable in. While they are miserable, in their sin they find a perverse solace. So while it’s torture 99.99% of the time, they have a moment of pleasure. Next have a shoulder angel and a devil whispering in their ear. Because they are in Hell the devil has the home field advantage and has a better grip on the MC, but the voice of the Angel can still be heard albeit the voice is soft.

Redemption in this context is forgoing the sin and moving on. This can show similar characters falling deeper into the devils clutches, others that relapse. The character in this instance is to recognize they are sinning, turn from that sin and move one to either the next sin they are chained to or the road to heaven.. They can exit the room, but they will only retain the memories of the room if they moved past their sin. Also, while in the room, they believe they are still alive and on Earth. Otherwise, are you doing this because you hate hell, or are you remorseful for your actions.

Also slap them with a time limit so there’s actual stakes involved and people can be kicked out.

Not as in Depth as Cyber Bowling’s response, but it‘s how I would handle it if I was a writer on the show. Now, there’s much to be discussed on the nature of redemption, and if some of these sinners can be redeemed, but that’s a convo for another time and frankly one I’m not too keen on having ATM.
 
This is a bit off-topic, but this thought has crossed my mind a few times while reading this thread:

How would you go about redeeming characters that commit the most heinous of crimes in this show? And I'm mostly referring to crimes that the Fandom would absolutely throw a fit over if the show even attempted to redeem said Sinner (ex: pedophiles, dictators, cult leaders, rapists, slave owners, etc.). Of course, Viv would never do this because she is "safe edgy", but I was curious to know how you all would go about it.
For dictators I'd give them some positive traits, which eventually eclipse their negative ones. Real world tyrants often had some redeeming qualities. For instance, Saddam Hussein and Gaddafi both could be rather intelligent, could form genuine bonds with others, and seemed to care about their nations and people, in their own way. (Read The Prisoner In His Palace, it's pretty good) Heck, here's a fun fact: Adolf Hitler's doctor was Jewish, and one of his landlord's was Jewish. He apparently had a good enough opinion of both to spare them from execution.

Back to writing, at the climax of their arc, I'd make them realize the error of their ways, and then afterwards they'd try to use their skills and influence to better the world around them. At the end of their arc, they can make a selfless sacrifice, step aside and let a new younger and better leader take charge, or maybe they can continue to better things for the foreseeable future.
 
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