Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

Do you believe that this series will turn to shit?


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So, from what I'm seeing, the entire voice cast got replaced? I thought maybe one or two was gonna stick from the pilot.
It wasn’t just you thinking that, there used to be rumors that Viv was keeping Ed and Jill. Word through the grapevine is that she dropped them all because they’re friends with Ashley Nichols and she isn’t on good terms with her anymore.

A bunch of VAs have actually called Viv out on this and pointed out that the union excuse is bullshit. The pilot cast are all being supportive of the new VAs, but I’m sure they’re still sore.
 
Gay spider is not as good as old gay spider.

Non age restricted upload and archive.


Can concur on it looking like shit as everyone else here seems to agree - what's it running at, like 10 fps? This is the end result of 'normalizing' low framerates being ok in animation, just okaying lazy work.

As someone who hasn't really paid attention to most of this show, has it ever been as blatant as putting what looks like gay furry bdsm sex in 'as a joke'
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I know they've got a furry woman in the other show, but I wasn't aware it ever got this close to blatantly nsfw. Besides the violence that's in every 'adult' comedy I don't think I've seen blatant fetishy nonsense like this, at least not including furshit though I don't really go out of my way to watch crap tv. I guess I shouldn't be surprised with internet animation degens.
 
This show is being animated by Bento Box right? I remember seeing a reply talking about how they were the studio behind animating Bob's Burgers, a slow slice-of-life dry sense of humor type show where not a whole lot is going on other than mischievous antics. Whereas now they're given the helms of animating Hazbin Hotel, a show highly energetic, highly animated with a lot of movement and very fast-paced vulgur type sense of humor where it has to involve a lot of sex, drugs, violence, swearing and what have you. Giving this premise to a studio like Bento Box is like giving a student with a fairly good understanding of mathematics the role of a mechanical engineer, they might be familiar with some things but it's just a disaster waiting to happen.
 
I know the answer to this already, but what is the lore of hell at this point, according to Hasbin? In the first season of HB and the HH pilot they set up such interesting concepts. Angel weapons, DORKS, Heaven, the rings of hell... the various types and classes of creatures and demons. I just wanted to learn more about that...
 
I used to lurk this thread a few rare times in the but i've finally been getting into heluva boss recently because of friends and youtube pushing on top of Hazbin hype and watching a few random episodes from pilot to S1 to S2 it felt like watching RWBY, a show that went through drastic thematic and writing shifts from pilot to seasons.

The pilot itself is so weird in hindsight i've heard people say its not even canon anymore. If you watch the spongebob 5 minute pilot (which is great btw) then you'll understand exactly spongbob works, but HB pilot is false, this is NOT a show about a group of hell imps being hired killers, this is a "sad and gay soap opera/musical for adults".

Season 1 spends a lot setting up between a lot of people from Blitzo's past, keeping up with stolas family and some human plots but you can still tell there is some flow and internal logic here because its all writen by Viviene and some guy named Brandon. The most different episode here is the beelzebub one that released much later and you can already feel the tone difference there.

Season 2 adds a new writer named Adam Neylan and the show becomes a fanfiction of itself, and i dont mean it in a hyperbolically way.

-People insist there was no retcon but Stolas was 100% changed from sassy demon royalty to angsty yaoi softboy. Stolas and blitzo relationship went from being portrayed as toxic for both of them to TRAGIC childhood crush. Stella was never deep but her being a bitch isnt played for laughs anymore, their relationship is a serious attempt to show a male abuse victim.

-World building will be shattered whenever its convenient for the plot (or joke) just like RWBY. This is fucking hell but somehow both mafia and police with jails coexist naturally. There are lawyers who can enforce contracts into one of the seven sins but they can be killed with no consequences. Striker will literally kidnap a prince with some out of nowhere angel rope (???) and fuck it, no need to explain. Imp/prejudice is played for Stolitz laugh then drama but other demon royalty seems to get away with it (beelz, ozzy). There are gas stations and you can get away with blowing them. I still dont know if Blitzo's job is illegal or not. Have i mentioned jails? Cause seriously WTF how do they fit into anything here...

-Characters will change personality randomly for the sake of the plot or joke meaning there are no stakes anymore. Western energy is particularly offensive for this:

1-Loona is reduced to a literal rabid dog for the joke half of the episode, which is unintentionally funny because i thought her kind were discriminated like that.

2-Striker will say he hates nobles while working for one and bow down when stella says he cant kill stolas. You can argue Striker is a hypocrite but i dont think this is the intention, this whole thing is just a forced drama, we know no one is actually dying here.

3-Blitzo will drop an unironic "He can get hurt?" which is some David Cage tier attempt at drama as it expects you to feel sad without wondering how retarded it sounds. YES Blitzo, the guy HIRED TO KILL STOLAS did, in fact, almost kill stolas. If he didnt think there was a threat why bother sending moxie and milie?

4-Stella backs down from killing stolas because the writers realized they didnt think this through and striker can't be threatning stolas life everyday. They also accidentally make stella more likable by making it clear she is just a pawn for her family.

5-All of this drama is completely forgotten by next time stolas apepars. Stolas is not only already healed but lusting after blitzo, while Striker and Moxie's dad are reduced to disposable villain of the week.

One other thing i noticed is this show really aint edgy as it thinks anymore. Blitzo in the pilot jokes about not trying to be offensive only to call Moxie retarded and mocks a child burial but in Western energy he unironically refuses to say retarded ("cant say that word anymore") and holds back to not shoot a demon child. Blitzo says multiple times how "It's HELL so no one cares!" but that's not true anymore is it? There are objectively good and bad characters now.

Beelzebub, the queen of gluttony, is this super nice party gal who encourages moderation (temperance) while Asmodeus, the lust incarnate, is completely loyal (chastity), tells stolas that love potions are rape and true love is consent (lol). Both characters are LGBT (?) in love with opressed minorities too. This feels less like clever subversion and more like vivienne tried too hard to make you love her favourite 7 sin OCs. We'll probably find out that Lucifer (pride) is simply a lightly smug friendly fellow and Satan (wrath) is super chill and only gets angry at homophobic people.
 
One other thing i noticed is this show really aint edgy as it thinks anymore. Blitzo in the pilot jokes about not trying to be offensive only to call Moxie retarded and mocks a child burial but in Western energy he unironically refuses to say retarded ("cant say that word anymore") and holds back to not shoot a demon child. Blitzo says multiple times how "It's HELL so no one cares!" but that's not true anymore is it? There are objectively good and bad characters now.
This show is probably the fakest form of 'edgy" there is, it plays up all the sex and cursing and murder, but at the end of the day, the main cast is perfectly safe from ever being seriously wounded, and even if Stolas does almost die, a week in the hospital fixes everything. The writers are too terrified to have their main characters be bad people even though they that consist of almost entirely remorseless assassins and a cheating noble making a childhood crush fuck him to do his job. Stolitz is portrayed as uwu pure yaoi love despite simultaneously portraying it as toxic and making it very fucking clear Blitzo wants absolutely nothing to do with Stolas outside of the grimoire.
Like, the team would NEVER casually shoot and dismember a child nowadays.
This is fucking hell but somehow both mafia and police with jails coexist naturally.
I've actually been thinking about this a lot because of how fucking stupid it is, for awhile I've assumed the mafia was actually perfectly legal because the only law in hell was to not fuck with your superiors or something, and the only law enforcement that existed were bounty hunters and personally run labor camps and shit, but now there's lawyers and hospitals and shit, so the joke in the pilot about insurance doesn't even make sense anymore, since there's probably absolutely insurance in hell.
 
This show is probably the fakest form of 'edgy" there is, it plays up all the sex and cursing and murder, but at the end of the day, the main cast is perfectly safe from ever being seriously wounded, and even if Stolas does almost die, a week in the hospital fixes everything. The writers are too terrified to have their main characters be bad people even though they that consist of almost entirely remorseless assassins and a cheating noble making a childhood crush fuck him to do his job.
That's "Safe Edgy" for you. It's been a thing on the Internet since the Tumblr exodus, or at the very least when the whole "JonTron said 'retarded'" controversy happened.
 
One nitpick I have of the series is how they make no effort to commit to the lore and world they set up.

Specifically with how Blitz worries about "dying alone". Already the concept of hell denizens dying is pretty dumb but even then you'd think as long as you're not stupid you're essentially immortal.

But characters don't act immortal they act like death is inevitable, like any other human. The only character who kinda comes off as some immortal terror is Alistor. Every other character acts (and is probably canonically) like they're in their 20's/30's and it's such a waste of a setting.

The blasphemous acts of Blitz and Fizz sleeping with demon nobles would also carry a lot more weight if they had been the pillars of hell for eons only to fall for some imps but no it's just a shitty affair.

It would give a reason to have higher classes in hell as they are the ones strong and art enough to live long enough to control portions of hell.

There's so much they could do to flesh things out but they just want to make earth but redder and more deviantArt looking.
 
The pilot at least had this self awareness of how offensive it's trying to be, but now it will actively push itself as politically correct, which in turn makes it's fake edgyness standout more.

Stolitz is portrayed as uwu pure yaoi love despite simultaneously portraying it as toxic and making it very fucking clear Blitzo wants absolutely nothing to do with Stolas outside of the grimoire.

It used to be like that but after the last episode (Oops) it's very clear that Stolitz is NOT a toxic relationship anymore and they drew very clear parallels between stolitz and Fizz/ozzy. Like i said, the transcript almost reads like something out of a helluva boss fanfiction.

1-Stolas becoming this dramatic shy maiden who confesses his love by talking like "I,um... seem to have found... feelings... for him.. But i dont know if its mutual.." while the friend who's already in a healthy gay relationship gives advice to be honest with his feelings.

2-Blitzo gets called out for loving stolas, leading to blitzo venting about how Stolas is trying really hard to get his attenttion but he has to be faking it cause he's poor and that would never work out, with the character who knows true love rolling eyes at his cynicism.

This is not the story of two guys abusing each other anymore, it's a romantic comedy about two gays who can't admit they love each other because they assume the other gay doesnt like them back.

I've actually been thinking about this a lot because of how fucking stupid it is

This wouldnt be so bad if the pilot didnt paint hell as this ultra chaotic place where making a living as a car washer would be impossible but nope, hell is very clearly capable of having law and order when the writers feels like it.

The police is by far the worst of all because they spent way too long hyping this raw power hierarchy of Lucifer > 7sins > royals > overlords > sinners/demons but now police exists and we have no idea who controls it and how much influence it actually has.
 
There's so much they could do to flesh things out but they just want to make earth but redder and more deviantArt looking.
You'd think they'd try to do something more true to form (lava, red caverns, piles of skulls) or something more abstract, but no. Seems Hell in this universe is just Earth with a red sky from what it looks like.
 
Yknow, does Helluva and Hazbin even have any interesting takes on Christian Mythology besides surface level shit like The 7 Deadly Sins? (And I guess that abhorrent take on turning Beezlebub into some Lava Lamp Wolf lookin ass bitch)
I think we'll get our answer if Hazbin gives a reason why Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven. My guess is he rebels because God doesn't allow any "fun."
 
Beelzebub, the queen of gluttony, is this super nice party gal who encourages moderation (temperance) while Asmodeus, the lust incarnate, is completely loyal (chastity), tells stolas that love potions are rape and true love is consent (lol). Both characters are LGBT (?) in love with opressed minorities too. This feels less like clever subversion and more like vivienne tried too hard to make you love her favourite 7 sin OCs. We'll probably find out that Lucifer (pride) is simply a lightly smug friendly fellow and Satan (wrath) is super chill and only gets angry at homophobic people.
What's weird is that I've always been a fan of the trope of opposing oneself in action and failing as a result. That is to say that because it is ones nature to represent something, that their desire to act as its opposite is pointless. A fire hydrant cannot fix flood damage, and will flood the house more. A firework can only make a fire worse if used. If a better writer were to tackle this concept with the sins, it would make more sense for these characters to fail to embody anything or accomplish any tasks involving their opposing heavenly virtue.
But instead we get walking contradictions. If the underlying theme of the show is that self deception and denial leads to hell, I would be fine with that. If the final trick to getting into heaven is truly accepting who you are, irregardless of morality and acting in line with it, I would be fine with that. But alas I don't think the writing staff can puzzle their way through something that deep.
 
Gonna sperg a bit because it's been bugging me forever and I need to get it out of my system.

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Vivz cannot draw faces. She's been at it for years and has never shaken her chronic same-face syndrome. Anime is horrendous for this, but it's anime so whatever. Her style is very much western therefore there's no excuse to be stuck on exactly the same proportions for literally every character that have eyes and a mouth when you can have exaggerated variety such a style allows.

Look, I drew one of her characters!
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Which one? Could be any fuken one and you wouldn't know unless it's slapped on a silhouette.:roll:
Omitting the nose in a design is a crutch for mediocre artists.
 
There's so much they could do to flesh things out but they just want to make earth but redder and more deviantArt looking.
The redone color palette for the main characters is kind of irritating to me, because it mostly just makes them all fucking red, with only their silhouettes to distinguish them. Charlie's coral-colored jacket and black pants from the pilot made her stick out; not just a softie in her behavior, but in her Neapolitan ice cream color scheme, as well. Vaggie's old design was almost uniformly monochromatic grays and whites with pink accents, which gave her a faded ghost girl vibe, but now, she also has a red jacket and fuckhuge red tails on her red hairbow. As a result, Alastor's redness no longer stands out. Charlie and Vaggie have gone from being their own thing, to being, visually, extensions of Alastor.

The entire aesthetic of Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss is just dripping and oozing with that Tim Burton and Jhonen Vasquez shit that 2000s goth girls could never get enough of. If you're old enough to remember Myspace and LiveJournal, then you're also old enough to remember all those retarded teenagers on DeviantArt who posted Invader Zim, Johnny the Homicidal Maniac, and Sweeney Todd fanart (with descriptions like OMG JOHNNY DEPP, SO DREAMY, I WANT HIS SPERM) nonstop. Vivienne Medrano is what happens when one of those exact same retards grows up and goes pro. All the characters in this show have spidery limbs and look like walking collections of kitchen knives. Pretty much the only time the character art is even vaguely interesting is when it diverges from that basis. The background art is extremely over-detailed, especially considering that we only get split-second glimpses of it due to the series' liberal use of distracting quick cuts, zooms, and pans for visual emphasis, like an old Vine clip. You practically have to freeze-frame it to take in the details.

The reason why the trailer looks like shit is not because it's badly animated. On the contrary, the character animations look fantastic. Their movements are dynamic and fun. The real problem here is all the goddamn strobing all over the place because of all the panning shots and the fact that the pans are on ones and the characters are animated on twos. Rapid 24fps pan + fast-moving 12fps character = strobing all over the place. You can easily confirm this by loading it into VLC and doing a frame-by-frame and seeing what's actually happening from frame to frame.

Here are a couple more examples of what I mean. This is what the trailer looks like completely locked to 12fps (I tossed it in Premiere and locked it to 11.988 and re-exported the whole thing in like three seconds).



The pans are now occurring at the same rate as the character animation, so they look a lot jerkier, but the strobing is mostly gone. There are five ways around this problem, and all of them have their own drawbacks.
  1. Avoid panning and zooming so much, keep the camera fixed when characters are moving, and move the camera when characters are fixed. This is basically the standard way to avoid strobing in (cheap) traditional animation, but it limits the camera quite a bit. Genndy Tartakovsky favored this approach a lot in Samurai Jack, for instance. Dramatic Slow Pan! Mexican Standoff! Wait, everyone is standing still, maybe glancing at each other like some old Chanbara film. No strobing here, no sir.
  2. Lock the whole thing to 12fps, which makes the pans look awful, like in my example above.
  3. Animate on ones, which means a much bigger budget and more time spent animating.
  4. Animate on ones, but only when the camera is moving, which, in this case, is basically all the time because the camera is schizophrenic, so it's not much cheaper than just animating the whole thing on ones, which isn't feasible.
  5. Use AI frame interpolation to artificially tween the frames, which is of the devil, and something that all true animators despise.
Here's an example of that last one, in the typical "Look ma, I made it 60fps!" YouTube fashion:


Whee! Visual glitches galore! Everyone is now made of rubber and their expressions eerily crawl around their faces.

One of the most eye-popping things I can think of in anime, in recent memory, was the Saitama versus Boros fight in One Punch Man. There is crazy panning all over the place, and it looks amazingly smooth and doesn't strobe like shit because they're cautious with the panning and some of the shots switch from twos to ones while incidentally employing rotoscoping over 3D reference models for the backgrounds. Look at the part from 5:48 to 5:53 to see what I mean by this:


During the rapid side-to-side motion across the screen, Boros' glowing orb of a body is occasionally animated on ones. As a result, the whole thing looks really smooth. No strobing or anything.
 
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