HBO House of the Dragon - Prequel of one of the most recent cultural trainwrecks

[Outer Space Traveller]

The Faith of the Seven is what the Church looks like to God-hating maggots. No real power, no real intellectual or moral backbone, just blind worship and some zealots down the line. Even the High Sparrow was a shallow ripoff of Savonarola, but at that point, the Faith is so ambiguous that you can't tell if the HS is a true believer or if he's just using the Faith to gain power.

What's funny is that nuns have been integral to the intellectual life of the Church since the Medieval days. Some nuns were landlords, a few even advised the Pope. One more way GRRM's Westeros is not fit to be compared to the real Middle Ages. Especially when Brienne in ASOIAF struggles to fit in as a female fighter, whereas the real Middle Ages had female knightly orders.

The thing is, every other religion in Westeros and Essos has superpowers. The Warlocks of Qarth, the Lord of Light, the Many-Faced God, the Old Gods, so it makes no sense that the Faith of the Seven would have any toehold when they don't have any powers.

Ancient Catholicism/Christianity had faith healers and miracle workers, modern Catholicism has exorcists and faith healers. At the very least, there's something there to convince people of the supernatural nature of the Faith, whether you believe it or not.

If only Martin wasn't so proud and actually went ahead to make "Not Christian Catholicism" be a forced to be reckoned with, and I don't mean "Amassing the power of people/fools who want to believe in an afterlife - just because I don't like the idea of Christianity". But rather have interesting things, each aspect of the seven granting miracles (not superpowers), yet decisive miracles on each aspect. Father on being just, Mother on being merciful, Warrior on battles, Maiden on giving birth and graceful, Crone on being wise as age goes, the Smith on repairing broken things (perhaps more materialist, but eh), and the Stranger - to give farewell for those who we love. But it isn't a thing to do "Okay I want it so bad and please give it to me", but rather this god with each face grants it to those who deserve on the right occasion.

To complement: Martin must be very proud of his work on The Faith of the Seven, as it purposefully subverts Christianity and makes it weak. Something he would not change.

The fact that even normies hate the show now gives some hope to that assertion. I just saw the Honest Trailers trash Season 2 as filler.

First video I saw of this channel, quite alright. Can get a chuckle, but I detected no lies. The production company's fucked however.

I remember there's a Crusader Kings 2 mod for ASOIAF. I remember my friend talk about a campaign where Young Aegon and Dany marry, but Euron Greyjoy steals their dragons using the dragonbinder horn and attacks Westeros with them.

The game making more sense than the show, and by extension GRRM. But it will ruin his "perfect subversion". Gee, wonder why he hates "fanfictions" in general...

 

[Chuckwagon]

In a happier note I was going to say that I arrived too late for the relative derail about House Gardener, Dornish and Others slander and the like but I keep on wondering, how much of a waste of time it would be to make a Kaiserreich version of GURM's work? Not like writing a book, more so just spit balling. I'm asking because there's something that attracts us to make fun of it but also to open up about what we would do differently. The ASOIF world is like a liminal space if that makes sense, it has all the components to be something and yet feels pretty empty.

I remember there's a Crusader Kings 2 mod for ASOIAF. I remember my friend talk about a campaign where Young Aegon and Dany marry, but Euron Greyjoy steals their dragons using the dragonbinder horn and attacks Westeros with them.

The game making more sense than the show, and by extension GRRM. But it will ruin his "perfect subversion". Gee, wonder why he hates "fanfictions" in general...

I was gonna say, the CK2 mod remains the best ASOIAF/GoT gaming experience to date, far better than all the officially licensed games (which are long dead except for maybe some mobile games by the way, like Telltale for example did a Walking Dead-esque GoT game before Season 5 of the show dropped but the whole company has since died so it's 100% never getting a follow-up). It's also much meatier & more feature-complete than the CK3 version that's being worked on and which IIRC is only just starting to introduce dragons & the Dance era, much like CK2 itself compared to CK3, with entire functioning event chains for special characters like Aegon I and Dany. So nevermind just Kaiserreich, it's like the Kaiserredux of GoT in terms of content (but runs more smoothly). Like for example if you start the game at Aegon's Conquest, you can actually choose (via the starting event) to invade Essos and form the 'Empire of New Valyria' instead of dicking around in Westeros, which already allows you to radically alter the history of the world 300 years before the events of the main series. The consequent event chain allows him to turn Volantis into the New Valyrian equivalent of KL, and to convert to R'hllorism rather than the Seven as well.

I find that's also the best way to set up a playthrough as any of the Westerosi great houses (Gardener/Durrandon/Lannister/Stark, etc.) since Aegon & the Targs will usually be too busy fighting endless rebellions & Dothraki hordes to attack you with his flying 'I win' buttons. Since I was discussing House Gardener recently, I'll add that they're the easiest house to unite Westeros with in any 'Aegon goes east' game. The Reach is OP compared to all of its neighboring kingdoms (they usually have to gang up on you to have any chance, which is canon-accurate) and Harren the Black's realm in particular is very vulnerable to imploding, his Riverlord vassals hate his guts so they will usually rise up to support you if you attack him as Mern IX (as they did for Aegon in canon). And as usual, since canon goes out the window once you unpause the game for the first time, you can still have lots of fun in later bookmarks as well. One of my most recent playthroughs, from like a year ago, was a decisive Green victory game where I started as Aegon II and Aemond 'only' captured Luke Velaryon instead of killing him like a week in, so Blood & Cheese never happened. On the run before that, I got Renly to bend the knee to me as Stannis by event, making defeating Joffrey much easier.

The mod has its own forum & a large collection of submods, a lot of which still work (even the old ones didn't need much updating because the last version of this mod, 2.2, was released in 2020). There's multiple graphical submods if you want your character portraits to not look like they have FAS (which is what usually happens when you play with the basic vanilla-based portraits); The Seed Is Strong lets you maintain book-accurate genetics for many more houses so there's little to no chance of blond Baratheons or redheaded Lannisters being born in your game; and since we were also talking about the Faith recently, More Bloodlines not only adds a lot more bloodlines (duh) but does also slightly expand FO7 content by allowing zealous Seveners to dedicate themselves to one aspect of the Seven above the rest (gives you a trait with bonuses), plus there's an older mod that adds compatibility with the Orders of Chivalry mod (makes the Faith Militant into a joinable society with its own quests & bonuses, there's a working download link on the last page and it's still fully compatible with the main mod as of today). The various developers have created lots of compatibility patches to allow you to combine some or all of these mods for the optimal playthrough.

 

[Chilson]

If only Martin wasn't so proud and actually went ahead to make "Not Christian Catholicism" be a forced to be reckoned with, and I don't mean "Amassing the power of people/fools who want to believe in an afterlife - just because I don't like the idea of Christianity". But rather have interesting things, each aspect of the seven granting miracles (not superpowers), yet decisive miracles on each aspect. Father on being just, Mother on being merciful, Warrior on battles, Maiden on giving birth and graceful, Crone on being wise as age goes, the Smith on repairing broken things (perhaps more materialist, but eh), and the Stranger - to give farewell for those who we love. But it isn't a thing to do "Okay I want it so bad and please give it to me", but rather this god with each face grants it to those who deserve on the right occasion.

Its especially weird since EVERY OTHER religion gets miracles and some form of boon to its worshipers. Sure, they are rare, not understood and not evenly distributed. But its just strange that the "Not Catholicism" one gets nothing and all the criticism to boot.

 

[TheHarbinger]

The faith of the seven is just a tool for george to voice his frustrations with christianity. The faith is lame and corrupt and has no actual superpowers. No one takes it seriously expect dullards and peasents. The actual religion is pagan tree worship.

It's also the only religion without actual miracles or magic in its history. The North has things like warging and greenseeing and weirwood networks not to mention giant magic structures like the Wall. The Targs have dragons and futuristic dreams and magic genetics. The Drowned God has some type of magic associated with the Others it seems. The Lord of Light is raising people from the dead, seeing the future in flames, and creating magic glamors and disguises. The Faceless Men clearly use magic.

Yet people overwhelmingly follow the religion of zero miracles, spells, or abilities. In a world where magic is now nearly omnipresent. And the real world religion, Christianity, that the Seven is based on is the religion of miracles. Talking animals, Jonah surviving being in a whale's mouth, resurrections from the dead, people throwing fire from their hands, healing the blind.

Its especially weird since EVERY OTHER religion gets miracles and some form of boon to its worshipers. Sure, they are rare, not understood and not evenly distributed. But its just strange that the "Not Catholicism" one gets nothing and all the criticism to boot.

It's just more of GRRM's terrible world building that gets overlooked. "The next Tolkien".

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

If only Martin wasn't so proud and actually went ahead to make "Not Christian Catholicism" be a forced to be reckoned with, and I don't mean "Amassing the power of people/fools who want to believe in an afterlife - just because I don't like the idea of Christianity". But rather have interesting things, each aspect of the seven granting miracles (not superpowers), yet decisive miracles on each aspect. Father on being just, Mother on being merciful, Warrior on battles, Maiden on giving birth and graceful, Crone on being wise as age goes, the Smith on repairing broken things (perhaps more materialist, but eh), and the Stranger - to give farewell for those who we love. But it isn't a thing to do "Okay I want it so bad and please give it to me", but rather this god with each face grants it to those who deserve on the right occasion.

Sounds like the Aedra worship religion from Elder Scrolls. Pagan in theology, Catholic in practice, their temples even look like churches in the Imperial City during Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion. Each god has its own thing, and special part to play. Zenithar is for workers, Mara is for love, Akatosh for time, Talos for rulership, the list goes on. But the thing is, Todd Howard doesn't have a hate-boner towards Catholicism the way GRRM does, so his fantasy Catholicism actually has powers, and it is a functioning religion with miracles like Akatosh materializing through Martin Septim to strike down the Daedric Prince Mehrunes Dagon.

To complement: Martin must be very proud of his work on The Faith of the Seven, as it purposefully subverts Christianity and makes it weak. Something he would not change.

And ironically enough, it's one of the most nothing-burger things in his work outside of the Faith Militant and the Sparrows. And those two groups ironically make the religious thugs that GRRM despises into heroes who are ballsy enough to stand up to tyrants, like how the Faith Militant stood up to Maegor. Then there's the Sparrows who forced Cersei to walk naked across the streets. If anything, GRRM accidentally made fantasy Catholicism look powerful by having them stand up to evil monarchs like Maegor and Cersei.

First video I saw of this channel, quite alright. Can get a chuckle, but I detected no lies. The production company's fucked however.

Given the lukewarm reception to HOTD S2, that is the case. HOTD S1 having a good reception brought life back to the franchise, but after this season, they're back to S8 GOT levels of fan hatedom.

The game making more sense than the show, and by extension GRRM. But it will ruin his "perfect subversion". Gee, wonder why he hates "fanfictions" in general...

Because fanfictions can do a better job than most writers do nowadays. Hell, there's good fanfics out there of ASOIAF; one involved Robb marrying Dany and winning the throne, another involved Azula from Avatar: The Last Airbender becoming Stannis' bride and helping Ned Stark.

I was gonna say, the CK2 mod remains the best ASOIAF/GoT gaming experience to date, far better than all the officially licensed games (which are long dead except for maybe some mobile games by the way, like Telltale for example did a Walking Dead-esque GoT game before Season 5 of the show dropped but the whole company has since died so it's 100% never getting a follow-up). It's also much meatier & more feature-complete than the CK3 version that's being worked on and which IIRC is only just starting to introduce dragons & the Dance era, much like CK2 itself compared to CK3, with entire functioning event chains for special characters like Aegon I and Dany. So nevermind just Kaiserreich, it's like the Kaiserredux of GoT in terms of content (but runs more smoothly).

Which again, shows us how fans can be better than official producers in more ways than one.

Like for example if you start the game at Aegon's Conquest, you can actually choose (via the starting event) to invade Essos and form the 'Empire of New Valyria' instead of dicking around in Westeros, which already allows you to radically alter the history of the world 300 years before the events of the main series. The consequent event chain allows him to turn Volantis into the New Valyrian equivalent of KL, and to convert to R'hllorism rather than the Seven as well.

I never understood why the Targs didn't bring the Lord of Light worship from Volantis to Westeros. They could've masked their conquest with religious intent, saying that the Lord of Light supported their conquest and defeated the Seven, turning people from one religion to another-a religion that they can fully control. That's half the reason the Carolignians and the Spaniards got rid of all native religions in the places they conquer and spread Christianity. Outside of the fact that they genuinely want to spread the Word of God, they want a religion that they can talk to and negotiate with, ruling the lands they conquered.

Its especially weird since EVERY OTHER religion gets miracles and some form of boon to its worshipers. Sure, they are rare, not understood and not evenly distributed. But its just strange that the "Not Catholicism" one gets nothing and all the criticism to boot.

It's also the only religion without actual miracles or magic in its history. The North has things like warging and greenseeing and weirwood networks not to mention giant magic structures like the Wall. The Targs have dragons and futuristic dreams and magic genetics. The Drowned God has some type of magic associated with the Others it seems. The Lord of Light is raising people from the dead, seeing the future in flames, and creating magic glamors and disguises. The Faceless Men clearly use magic.

Yet people overwhelmingly follow the religion of zero miracles, spells, or abilities. In a world where magic is now nearly omnipresent. And the real world religion, Christianity, that the Seven is based on is the religion of miracles. Talking animals, Jonah surviving being in a whale's mouth, resurrections from the dead, people throwing fire from their hands, healing the blind.

Because GRRM hates Catholicism, so he can't give them powers, but he gives them criticism. Even though Christianity started on the backs of Faith Healers and supernatural happenings which brought many people to the faith, and even now, people call in Catholic priests for exorcisms, healings, so it makes no sense that fantasy Catholicism has no powers when real Catholicism has at least supernatural encounters from the start. Hey, you get to eat Jesus every Sunday!

It's just more of GRRM's terrible world building that gets overlooked. "The next Tolkien".

Tolkien makes GRRM look like a high school student that flunked out of school. Tolkien knows what his story is and doesn't try to subvert it, sticking to the script and creating a story with a worthwhile ending. GRRM subverted his story into an entangled mess, then left it to rot while doing everything else other than finishing it.

 

[Chuckwagon]

I never understood why the Targs didn't bring the Lord of Light worship from Volantis to Westeros. They could've masked their conquest with religious intent, saying that the Lord of Light supported their conquest and defeated the Seven, turning people from one religion to another-a religion that they can fully control. That's half the reason the Carolignians and the Spaniards got rid of all native religions in the places they conquer and spread Christianity. Outside of the fact that they genuinely want to spread the Word of God, they want a religion that they can talk to and negotiate with, ruling the lands they conquered.

Thematically and lore-wise the Red Faith suits the Targs way better than the Seven, anyway. With Valyria gone, what religion would better suit the fire half of the Song of Ice & Fire than the one worshiping a single god of fire itself, represented by a burning heart, employing priests with powers no less magical than any dragon and whose rituals (from weddings to simple evening prayers) are all fire-centric? The visions in flames and other sorcerous powers associated with the Lord of Light would also have tied in well with some Targaryens' propensity for dragon-dreams and such. The fiery highlights of this religion makes for a great contrast with the water-based faith of the Valyrians' old Rhoynar/Dornish rivals too, the latter having waterbenders that they deployed against the ancient Valyrians.

Oh, and the faith already existed and was followed by many under Valyrian rule, so the Targaryens' ancestors must certainly have had more familiarity with it than the Seven. Volantis is the most natural capital for a reborn Valyrian empire, being the oldest/most prestigious/biggest of the Free Cities, and it boasts of the main temple of R'hllor (described as 3x the size of the Great Sept of Baelor) with the faith's high priest and even a janissary or Mamluk-like corps of elite slave soldiers called the Fiery Hand. Etc., etc. If anything, Aegon being a messianic figure motivated by dragon-dreams of the Others invading the known world to bring about an eternal winter or whatever instead of 'merely' an ambitious warlord with dragons should have pushed him more towards R'hllor and not the Seven, in hopes that the religion with proven pyromantic powers and which explicitly names the Great Other as its Satan figure would be of help in the new War for the Dawn he thinks he or his dynasty are supposed to fight.

Tolkien makes GRRM look like a high school student that flunked out of school. Tolkien knows what his story is and doesn't try to subvert it, sticking to the script and creating a story with a worthwhile ending. GRRM subverted his story into an entangled mess, then left it to rot while doing everything else other than finishing it.

I think the reception to Martin's and the show's ending (I'm dead certain D&D got ideas like King Bran and Dany going insane straight from him) prove that in the end, no matter how edgy and grimdark they profess to be, most people ultimately do not want or enjoy nihilistic & subversive endings. Few people actually like getting to know & love characters only for them to be brutally, pointlessly killed over and over again: that's the kind of shit that makes most of the audience ask 'well what's the point of me reading/watching this then'. Happy or at least genuinely bittersweet endings with real meaning and heart to them aren't popular because of Tolkien, if anything it's the other way around - Tolkien & other good writers go that route when ending their stories because they know that stuff works and actually leaves the audience feeling happy & satisfied with the book they picked up/the show they started watching. Doesn't matter if it's not 'hyperrealistic' either, nevermind that as this thread (and many others I'm sure) have poked all sorts of holes in ASOIAF's claim to 'realism', as the Tolkien vs. Martin rap battle from years ago sang - 'Oh, we all know the world is full of chance and anarchy/So, yes, it's true to life for characters to die randomly/But newsflash, the genre's called fantasy! It's meant to be unrealistic, you myopic manatee!'

 

[Chilson]

Thematically and lore-wise the Red Faith suits the Targs way better than the Seven, anyway. With Valyria gone, what religion would better suit the fire half of the Song of Ice & Fire than the one worshiping a single god of fire itself, represented by a burning heart, employing priests with powers no less magical than any dragon and whose rituals (from weddings to simple evening prayers) are all fire-centric? The visions in flames and other sorcerous powers associated with the Lord of Light would also have tied in well with some Targaryens' propensity for dragon-dreams and such. The fiery highlights of this religion makes for a great contrast with the water-based faith of the Valyrians' old Rhoynar/Dornish rivals too, the latter having waterbenders that they deployed against the ancient Valyrians.

Oh, and the faith already existed and was followed by many under Valyrian rule, so the Targaryens' ancestors must certainly have had more familiarity with it than the Seven. Volantis is the most natural capital for a reborn Valyrian empire, being the oldest/most prestigious/biggest of the Free Cities, and it boasts of the main temple of R'hllor (described as 3x the size of the Great Sept of Baelor) with the faith's high priest and even a janissary or Mamluk-like corps of elite slave soldiers called the Fiery Hand. Etc., etc. If anything, Aegon being a messianic figure motivated by dragon-dreams of the Others invading the known world to bring about an eternal winter or whatever instead of 'merely' an ambitious warlord with dragons should have pushed him more towards R'hllor and not the Seven, in hopes that the religion with proven pyromantic powers and which explicitly names the Great Other as its Satan figure would be of help in the new War for the Dawn he thinks he or his dynasty are supposed to fight.

It also would have simply made more sense for these dragon riding conquerors to not give a shit about the Seven and hold to the faith of fire for a long time since their dragons made them effectively invincible. Only giving a token nod to the Seven due to all the people who worshipped it in Westeros. Then they are forced to adopt the seven as their dragons die off and they can no longer afford the luxury of their own faith that was granted to them through superior arms.

Martin just didn't give a single shit about the religious aspect of medieval society, which is strange since he so clearly had a passion for medieval history and should know how important religion was in fucking everything at that time.

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

Sounds like the Aedra worship religion from Elder Scrolls. Pagan in theology, Catholic in practice, their temples even look like churches in the Imperial City during Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion. Each god has its own thing, and special part to play. Zenithar is for workers, Mara is for love, Akatosh for time, Talos for rulership, the list goes on. But the thing is, Todd Howard doesn't have a hate-boner towards Catholicism the way GRRM does, so his fantasy Catholicism actually has powers, and it is a functioning religion with miracles like Akatosh materializing through Martin Septim to strike down the Daedric Prince Mehrunes Dagon.

That's pretty interesting! I wanted to give a read on the complimentary material of The Elder Scrolls lore (books about it and the world of Tamriel), but never got into it. It's that sort of thing that it is nice to learn about it.

And ironically enough, it's one of the most nothing-burger things in his work outside of the Faith Militant and the Sparrows. And those two groups ironically make the religious thugs that GRRM despises into heroes who are ballsy enough to stand up to tyrants, like how the Faith Militant stood up to Maegor. Then there's the Sparrows who forced Cersei to walk naked across the streets. If anything, GRRM accidentally made fantasy Catholicism look powerful by having them stand up to evil monarchs like Maegor and Cersei.

Yep, pretty much. Martin has to abide by certain sense of "realism" and power struggle and he ended up making a civil disobedience/resistence of the Faith by making the Poor Fellows and the Faith Militant badass.

Tolkien makes GRRM look like a high school student that flunked out of school. Tolkien knows what his story is and doesn't try to subvert it, sticking to the script and creating a story with a worthwhile ending. GRRM subverted his story into an entangled mess, then left it to rot while doing everything else other than finishing it.

This has become a meme by itself, where people have decided to defend GRRM. "No, he didn't say that", or "he didn't mean it like that!!!". Well, what was his criticism then, to Tolkien's story?

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Thematically and lore-wise the Red Faith suits the Targs way better than the Seven, anyway. With Valyria gone, what religion would better suit the fire half of the Song of Ice & Fire than the one worshiping a single god of fire itself, represented by a burning heart, employing priests with powers no less magical than any dragon and whose rituals (from weddings to simple evening prayers) are all fire-centric? The visions in flames and other sorcerous powers associated with the Lord of Light would also have tied in well with some Targaryens' propensity for dragon-dreams and such. The fiery highlights of this religion makes for a great contrast with the water-based faith of the Valyrians' old Rhoynar/Dornish rivals too, the latter having waterbenders that they deployed against the ancient Valyrians.

You can have it so that a fire priest foresaw the White Walkers smashing through the Wall and invading Westeros, and that religious prophecy leads Aegon to stop ignoring the wider world and start conquering the place.

On the flipside, you can have water magicians be the one thing that helps Dorne hold off the Targaryens. Targaryen armies coming in are set upon by floods and water mages materializing ice spikes and throwing them at the soldiers, making them vulnerable to Dornish counterattack. Aegon rides Balerion and burns the crops of Dorne hoping to cow them to surrender, but the water magicians heal the land and make it arable again, while a suspicious tidal wave storm smashes the Targaryen fleet as it attempts to blockade the Dornish. After losing an entire armada, Aegon had to call it a draw and leave, while the Dornish celebrate it as a victory.

Oh, and the faith already existed and was followed by many under Valyrian rule, so the Targaryens' ancestors must certainly have had more familiarity with it than the Seven. Volantis is the most natural capital for a reborn Valyrian empire, being the oldest/most prestigious/biggest of the Free Cities, and it boasts of the main temple of R'hllor (described as 3x the size of the Great Sept of Baelor) with the faith's high priest and even a janissary or Mamluk-like corps of elite slave soldiers called the Fiery Hand. Etc., etc. If anything, Aegon being a messianic figure motivated by dragon-dreams of the Others invading the known world to bring about an eternal winter or whatever instead of 'merely' an ambitious warlord with dragons should have pushed him more towards R'hllor and not the Seven, in hopes that the religion with proven pyromantic powers and which explicitly names the Great Other as its Satan figure would be of help in the new War for the Dawn he thinks he or his dynasty are supposed to fight.

They can have it so that they view Aegon as their messiah sent by the Lord of Light to save Westeros from the Great Other, and have it so that the Volantis Temple is funding Aegon's conquest and he spreads their faith in a new land. Oh, and to add that touch of Medieval realism that Martin sorely lacks in his works, have it so that Aegon beheads Septons and anyone who refuses to convert to the new faith, the North only managing to keep their faith by saying that the Old Gods will ally with the Lord of Light against the Others when the latter comes knocking.

I think the reception to Martin's and the show's ending (I'm dead certain D&D got ideas like King Bran and Dany going insane straight from him) prove that in the end, no matter how edgy and grimdark they profess to be, most people ultimately do not want or enjoy nihilistic & subversive endings.

If Dan and Dave got to make their own ending, you can bet your ass it'd involve Jon Snow and Dany sitting on the Iron Throne, or the two of them fucking right next to Cersei's corpse. That ending reeked so much of GRRM's desire to subvert expectations.

Few people actually like getting to know & love characters only for them to be brutally, pointlessly killed over and over again: that's the kind of shit that makes most of the audience ask 'well what's the point of me reading/watching this then'. Happy or at least genuinely bittersweet endings with real meaning and heart to them aren't popular because of Tolkien, if anything it's the other way around - Tolkien & other good writers go that route when ending their stories because they know that stuff works and actually leaves the audience feeling happy & satisfied with the book they picked up/the show they started watching. Doesn't matter if it's not 'hyperrealistic' either, nevermind that as this thread (and many others I'm sure) have poked all sorts of holes in ASOIAF's claim to 'realism', as the Tolkien vs. Martin rap battle from years ago sang - 'Oh, we all know the world is full of chance and anarchy/So, yes, it's true to life for characters to die randomly/But newsflash, the genre's called fantasy! It's meant to be unrealistic, you myopic manatee!'

That's because people want fiction as comfort food. Why do you think most movies, video games, comics, and novels had good endings? Because they worked and made people feel good. Even Star Wars was supposed to have a bittersweet ending that Lucas scrapped in favor of a happy ending because he knew the audience would prefer the latter-and it worked. People left the theater after ROTJ with wide smiles and happy faces, wanting to see more Star Wars, which Lucas was able to capitalize on with the Expanded Universe and the Prequels. Meanwhile, GRRM is already making his expanded universe and prequels before finishing the main story, and his desire to subvert things and keep people guessing leads to endless complication that goes nowhere.

And yes, ASOIAF is not that realistic at all when it comes to Medieval politics, otherwise the Targaryens would've been forced to sign a Magna Carta-style constitution after the dragons died out, and Tywin would've been considered damned for all eternity for killing baptized royal babies.

It also would have simply made more sense for these dragon riding conquerors to not give a shit about the Seven and hold to the faith of fire for a long time since their dragons made them effectively invincible. Only giving a token nod to the Seven due to all the people who worshipped it in Westeros. Then they are forced to adopt the seven as their dragons die off and they can no longer afford the luxury of their own faith that was granted to them through superior arms.

Not only that, but the Targaryens should've been forced to accept a constitutional monarchy since their absolute power came from the dragons. So by that point, the lords would force the frightened Targ children on the throne to sign some great charter that gives more rights to the lords and rich city folk over the crown.

Martin just didn't give a single shit about the religious aspect of medieval society, which is strange since he so clearly had a passion for medieval history and should know how important religion was in fucking everything at that time.

He doesn't have a passion for Medieval history; he just takes bits and pieces of it to add to his own dystopia. It's not the same, especially when the Church was the strongest landowner in the Middle Ages, and they had no problems excommunicating kings who didn't see things their way. Once the dragons died out, the Faith should've become more powerful to the point where they could crown and depose kings.

That's pretty interesting! I wanted to give a read on the complimentary material of The Elder Scrolls lore (books about it and the world of Tamriel), but never got into it. It's that sort of thing that it is nice to learn about it.

Play Oblivion and Skyrim and you can get a first-hand look at the religious aspect of it. It especially leans on Fantasy Catholicism with the Aedra temples looking like gothic cathedrals.

Yep, pretty much. Martin has to abide by certain sense of "realism" and power struggle and he ended up making a civil disobedience/resistence of the Faith by making the Poor Fellows and the Faith Militant badass.

Which he probably didn't intend; GRRM accidentally made the Faith noble by having them resist Maegor and humiliate Cersei.

This has become a meme by itself, where people have decided to defend GRRM. "No, he didn't say that", or "he didn't mean it like that!!!". Well, what was his criticism then, to Tolkien's story?

This is probably GRRM shooting his own foot off because he didn't realize how popular Tolkien still was. He thought people would go along with his criticism of Tolkien, but like all modern leftists, he overestimated his own ideology's appeal to the masses, when in reality, people don't like subversive shit too much and love good, old-fashioned stories like LOTR with classic morality and religion behind them.

Subverting expectations is good when taken in small doses now and then. Too much, and having straightforward stories becomes the new subversion, and people stop caring about the story when it gets subverted too many times.

 

[Irish Turtle]

I had an idea for a lore rewrite that would have fit with martins lore and stregthened it.

The warrior in the faith of the seven is the hero who ended the long night. When he killed the night walkers he ascended to godhood and was given the power of fire and worked to keep ice in check. He was worshipped in the south of westeros and regarded as a hero. However in the north he was hated due to destroying weirwood trees in the south due to seeing them as evil. He ends up ruling the empire of dawn before fully becoming a god. After he left he was worried about the white walkers gaining power so he created dragons and taught the valyrians how to use them. He then began to be worhsipped by them as a god. However as time went on the valyrians started to get out of control and the warrior himself was feeling that the balance was breaking so he caused the doom of valyria. He let the targaryens survive in order to keep some power for fire. When the targaryens came to westeros he helped them win by stregnthening their dragons and convincing zealots to fight for the targaryens. However Maegor saw the religion that helped bring his father to power as a threat so he tried to purge them this earned him the anger of the warrior so he had the faith rise up against him. When Jaeherys came to power he initally supported him and even communicated with him directly. However Alysanne saw the darker aspects of the faith like human sacrice through burning to feed the gods. She convinced her husband to cut off the cult of the warrior. The warrior was angered by this and was going to take away the dragons completly. However Jaeherys kills several of his children throughout his reign to appease the warrior. This sacrifce is rewrotten in the lore to be that they died of natural causes or sickness. The reason why Saera left was to avoid being sacriced to fuel the dragons. In his later years Jaeherys relents and stops this practice angering The warrior so he curses the targaryens with ruin in the next generation. To spite the warrior Jaeherys begins cracking down on the cult of the warrior which greatly weakens him and the fire at large. The dance of the dragon happens and the remaning dragons are cursed so they will not have children. Aegon 3rd broods over this, Daeron tries to win wars in dorne to appease the warrior. Finally baelor tries praying to the warrior only to find out that the god began dying due to a lack of worship in westeros. Baelor decides that the worship of the warrior needs to be spread across the world so he creates the cult of rhollor from old priests that were alive in maegors time. He fails to convert westeros to this religion but it takes off in the free cities stabilizng the warrior. The people being burned alive in rhollor is needed to keep the fires warm enough to beat back the ice. In the current setting the warrior is weak in westeros due to a lack of proper worship (the faith of the seven in my new lore is a patchwork of different religions which does appease humans but not the gods) however he has power in essos. this means that he is incapable of demonstrating a lot of power in westeros relative to essos.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The warrior in the faith of the seven is the hero who ended the long night. When he killed the night walkers he ascended to godhood and was given the power of fire and worked to keep ice in check. He was worshipped in the south of westeros and regarded as a hero. However in the north he was hated due to destroying weirwood trees in the south due to seeing them as evil. He ends up ruling the empire of dawn before fully becoming a god. After he left he was worried about the white walkers gaining power so he created dragons and taught the valyrians how to use them. He then began to be worhsipped by them as a god. However as time went on the valyrians started to get out of control and the warrior himself was feeling that the balance was breaking so he caused the doom of valyria. He let the targaryens survive in order to keep some power for fire. When the targaryens came to westeros he helped them win by stregnthening their dragons and convincing zealots to fight for the targaryens. However Maegor saw the religion that helped bring his father to power as a threat so he tried to purge them this earned him the anger of the warrior so he had the faith rise up against him. When Jaeherys came to power he initally supported him and even communicated with him directly. However Alysanne saw the darker aspects of the faith like human sacrice through burning to feed the gods. She convinced her husband to cut off the cult of the warrior. The warrior was angered by this and was going to take away the dragons completly. However Jaeherys kills several of his children throughout his reign to appease the warrior. This sacrifce is rewrotten in the lore to be that they died of natural causes or sickness. The reason why Saera left was to avoid being sacriced to fuel the dragons. In his later years Jaeherys relents and stops this practice angering The warrior so he curses the targaryens with ruin in the next generation. To spite the warrior Jaeherys begins cracking down on the cult of the warrior which greatly weakens him and the fire at large. The dance of the dragon happens and the remaning dragons are cursed so they will not have children. Aegon 3rd broods over this, Daeron tries to win wars in dorne to appease the warrior. Finally baelor tries praying to the warrior only to find out that the god began dying due to a lack of worship in westeros. Baelor decides that the worship of the warrior needs to be spread across the world so he creates the cult of rhollor from old priests that were alive in maegors time. He fails to convert westeros to this religion but it takes off in the free cities stabilizng the warrior. The people being burned alive in rhollor is needed to keep the fires warm enough to beat back the ice. In the current setting the warrior is weak in westeros due to a lack of proper worship (the faith of the seven in my new lore is a patchwork of different religions which does appease humans but not the gods) however he has power in essos. this means that he is incapable of demonstrating a lot of power in westeros relative to essos.

Reminds me a lot of Tiber Septim becoming a god in Elder Scrolls.

 

[Chuckwagon]

You can have it so that a fire priest foresaw the White Walkers smashing through the Wall and invading Westeros, and that religious prophecy leads Aegon to stop ignoring the wider world and start conquering the place.

On the flipside, you can have water magicians be the one thing that helps Dorne hold off the Targaryens. Targaryen armies coming in are set upon by floods and water mages materializing ice spikes and throwing them at the soldiers, making them vulnerable to Dornish counterattack. Aegon rides Balerion and burns the crops of Dorne hoping to cow them to surrender, but the water magicians heal the land and make it arable again, while a suspicious tidal wave storm smashes the Targaryen fleet as it attempts to blockade the Dornish. After losing an entire armada, Aegon had to call it a draw and leave, while the Dornish celebrate it as a victory.

They can have it so that they view Aegon as their messiah sent by the Lord of Light to save Westeros from the Great Other, and have it so that the Volantis Temple is funding Aegon's conquest and he spreads their faith in a new land. Oh, and to add that touch of Medieval realism that Martin sorely lacks in his works, have it so that Aegon beheads Septons and anyone who refuses to convert to the new faith, the North only managing to keep their faith by saying that the Old Gods will ally with the Lord of Light against the Others when the latter comes knocking.

This reminds me, since you mentioned it would have been more realistic for Dorne to be one of the easier kingdoms for Aegon to defeat and the Reach to be one of the hardest. I not only agree, but now I would propose taking that a step further and in the event of a R'hllorite A1, having the Reach be the one kingdom that holds out thanks to the Citadel, being the hub of learning in all of Westeros, mass-producing anti-dragon weapons. We already have fans joking that the Hightowers are going to reveal cannons for use against Euron's fleet and drop an ICBM on the kraken he summons to attack the city nowadays, and semi-seriously theorizing about some grand Maester conspiracy to systematically drive dragonkind to extinction over centuries (possibly, but not certainly, in alliance with the Faith of the Seven): might as well have the sagely Maesters similarly go balls-out when it becomes apparent that strangers with flying nukes have come to quite literally burn everything they know & love to ash with zero intention to compromise.

Maybe they reveal that, as the Valyrian threat looms and the Stormlands/Riverlands/Westerlands fall to the power of the dragons, they've been working on dragonglass arrows and scorpion bolts that can cut through even Balerion's hide like a hot knife through butter, and pseudo-Valyrian-steel weapons for elite anti-dragon death squads comprised of the best Warrior's Sons (canonically they were said to have had dragonslayers and demonhunters in their ranks, so let them prove it here), whatever. The Seven's septons can bestow benedictions that actually work on these weapons and the Gardeners' armies to further improve their chances and also give the FO7 some miraculous demonstrations of power that would justify why anyone still bothers to stick to that religion when the Targs are coming in hot with seemingly unstoppable fire magic. Perhaps they can even recruit exiled water mages to enhance their defenses, sorcerers fleeing the fallen Dorne where their practices have been prohibited and they themselves have been proscribed, figuring that even with their traditional rivalry the Reachmen are still the lesser evil compared to the Targaryens whose ancestors oppressed and genocided the Rhoynar. The Valyrians might have beaten Rhoynar/Dornish water mages before and can even do so again, but with only three dragons left instead of three hundred or thousand, they can no longer afford to risk fighting a rival empire with entirely new tricks (of both a miraculous/magical and strictly technological nature) that can actually hurt or even kill their previously invincible war-beasts, something which can still be proven by Meraxes being brought down while trying to burn Oldtown or whatever.

This way the Reach would survive as the sole bastion of the Faith of the Seven against an otherwise R'hllor-dominated Westeros (plus the Old Gods North), befitting the single strongest one of the Seven Kingdoms and the one that's traditionally been the home of chivalry & the Faith, and keep said Faith alive until the Targaryens weaken and start having to make compromises after losing their dragons (including one that brings them into the fold and the Faith's headquarters to KL) - see, here's an actual reason for one of the 7K to stay independent and maintain very different customs compared to the others (in this case, doubtless forcefully converted to R'hllorism by the Targs) besides 'herp, I do luv me some stronk independent brown sluts'. The Dornish keep getting away with raiding and inciting rebellions in the Iron Throne's territory in canon - in this timeline, imagine having the Reach backing Sevener rebellions within the Iron Throne's dominion instead with missionary septons traveling over the border to help keep the faith alive & bring hope to the downtrodden faithful under Targaryen occupation at great personal risk, Maesters & Faith Militant crossing the border to provide anti-dragon supplies and leadership for the rebels like CIA/KGB agents in Third World conflicts, and the risk of mutual annihilation preventing both kingdoms from going to open war with each other (for the Reach, the dragons can still be devastating even if countered effectively; there are too few dragons for the Targaryens to risk in battle; and if it comes to a conventional war, the Reach's immense fertility, huge population & numerous castles will make fighting it a slog even for the other kingdoms put together, there's good reason why even multi-kingdom coalitions couldn't destroy them in the canon lore). Some real Cold War-esque shenanigans until almost 200 AC when you can have the unification of the continent finally happen, as in the canon.

Isn't it wonderful how at this point - well past the 25th anniversary of the first book's publication (seriously, that was in 2021, do you remember GRRM announcing or doing anything cool about it that year? Me neither) and any hope for new releases in the main storyline - it's more fun to discuss what could've been and how George's world could've been built better by anyone other than himself, than it is to try to color within the lines he had set down?

 

[FuckMeGentlyWithAChainsaw]

Especially when Brienne in ASOIAF struggles to fit in as a female fighter, whereas the real Middle Ages had female knightly orders.

What the hell's a "female knightly order"? As far as I'm aware women were not knighted during the Middle Ages, nor where they allowed to join regular armies, outside of non-fighting support functions.

 

[Chuckwagon]

What the hell's a "female knightly order"? As far as I'm aware women were not knighted during the Middle Ages, nor where they allowed to join regular armies, outside of non-fighting support functions.

There's actually one case of an honorary pseudo-chivalric order being created, by the father of the first Catalan King of Aragon to honor women who took up arms (specifically, mostly hatchets) and fought to prevent their hometown of Tortosa from being sacked by Muslims. These women weren't just given an honor equivalent to male knights, they also got substantive tax exemptions & inheritance/property-related privileges out of the deal. All that said, it was a strictly one-off thing, these fighting women didn't go on to become female Templar equivalents and the order died with the last of them. But I could see the case for an exaggerated version in the world of ASOIAF - or rather there's one already, the Poor Fellows (the commoner half of the Faith Militant) canonically accepted female fighters.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

What the hell's a "female knightly order"? As far as I'm aware women were not knighted during the Middle Ages, nor where they allowed to join regular armies, outside of non-fighting support functions.

There were women knightly orders which basically were orders of knighthood for women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_chivalry_for_women

So it makes no goddamn sense that Brienne would feel like an alien in a Medieval world where yes, there are female knightly orders, and yes, female nobles were expected to lead men into battle when her daddy, brother, or husband are away.

Isn't it wonderful how at this point - well past the 25th anniversary of the first book's publication (seriously, that was in 2021, do you remember GRRM announcing or doing anything cool about it that year? Me neither) and any hope for new releases in the main storyline - it's more fun to discuss what could've been and how George's world could've been built better by anyone other than himself, than it is to try to color within the lines he had set down?

Basically, yes. GRRM's world building is at best just adequate, so other fans with real passion can paint a better world.

Like for instance, I'd have it so that Tywin Lannister and his family are in charge of Westeros at the beginning of the proper ASOIAF books, period. Robert would just be Ned's fighter friend, instead you'd have Aegon son of Elia Martell as king, since during the taking of King's Landing by the Lannister forces, Tywin would send in Ser Gregor-to make sure Elia and her children are all right. He then proceeds to put Elia's son on the throne and marries the boy to Cersei Lannister. The boy-king would be about Robb's age, and that would cement Tywin's hold over the Targaryen monarchy, giving him full control of the dynasty as well as getting the loyalist houses like the Martells and Tyrells on his side, the latter of which has a larger army than the rebels.

It just makes me shake my head that GRRM would have an influential noble kill baptized royal babies when he could easily use them as puppets and marry them to his brood; that's what most nobles would do in Tywin's position.

 

[FuckMeGentlyWithAChainsaw]

There were women knightly orders which basically were orders of knighthood for women.

as your link says

These knighthoods for women made their first appearance in 1600

These were chivalric orders coming into fashion after the Middle Ages that gave out medals for charitable works and the like, the kind of knighthood Elton John has. These people were not expected to fight.
I think you'll struggle to name a single professional organization that accepted women fighters during the Christian Middle Ages.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

as your link says

These were chivalric orders coming into fashion after the Middle Ages that gave out medals for charitable works and the like, the kind of knighthood Elton John has. These people were not expected to fight.
I think you'll struggle to name a single professional organization that accepted women fighters during the Christian Middle Ages.

According to this link,

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/orders/wom-kn.htm#:~:text=Women%20Knights%20in%20the%20Middle%20Ages%201%20Female,Grand-Cross%20in%20the%20ORder%20of%20Saint%20John%20

The Order of the Hatchet was founded in 1149 by Raymond Berenger, count of Barcelona, to honor the women who fought for the defense of the town of Tortosa against a Moor attack. The dames admitted to the order received many privileges, including exemption from all taxes, and took precedence over men in public assemblies.

The Order of the Glorious Saint Mary was founded in 1233. It was founded by Loderigo d'Andalo, a nobleman of Bologna in 1233, and approved by pope Alexander IV in 1261, was the first religious order of knighthood to grant the rank of militissa to women.

Militissa is a female version of the Latin word Milites, which translates out to ''soldiers''. So no, these weren't just fancy ladies in silk, these were women given a rank that basically translates out to military service.

There's also records of women dressing like men and fighting like men during the Crusades.

https://historychronicles.org/women-knights-in-the-middle-ages/

''A significant number of historical sources describe the role of women as knights in crusader armies. Notably, the Byzantine chronicler Nicetas Choniates recorded that during the Second Crusade in 1147, women were among the Crusaders who dressed and fought like men. These women actively participated in battles in the Holy Land, challenging traditional roles assigned to them and showcasing their valor on the battlefield.''

So yes, there were women who fought, and some were accepted into knightly orders in the European Christian Middle Ages.

 

[FuckMeGentlyWithAChainsaw]

The Order of the Hatchet

As laid out in this post The Order of the Hatchet was given to women defending their hometown during a surprise attack, they did not go on to be fighters and were not organized as a military order.

The Order of the Glorious Saint Mary

Nothing in your link or my quick googling shows that female members of this order where expected to fight.

Militissa is a female version of the Latin word Milites, which translates out to ''soldiers''. So no, these weren't just fancy ladies in silk

More relevantly, milites translates to "knight", also from your own link

Du Cange notes that still in his day (17th c.), the female canons of the canonical monastery of St. Gertrude in Nivelles (Brabant), after a probation of 3 years, are made knights (militissae) at the altar, by a (male) knight called in for that purpose, who gives them the accolade with a sowrd and pronounces the usual words.

So yes, these were most likely fancy ladies in wimples.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

As laid out in this post The Order of the Hatchet was given to women defending their hometown during a surprise attack, they did not go on to be fighters and were not organized as a military order.

That's exactly what happened to them. They were rewarded for their valor in battle and were given their own order that was exempt from taxes and other things. Granted, they didn't last long, but that was one example, and there were women who didn't even bother joining specific orders before fighting, like during the Crusades.

Nothing in your link or my quick googling shows that female members of this order where expected to fight.

More relevantly, milites translates to "knight", also from your own link

So yes, these were most likely fancy ladies in wimples.

Like I said, women knights weren't just fancy ladies in silk, and there were women who fought and joined armies as knights.

https://historychronicles.org/women-knights-in-the-middle-ages/
''A significant number of historical sources describe the role of women as knights in crusader armies. Notably, the Byzantine chronicler Nicetas Choniates recorded that during the Second Crusade in 1147, women were among the Crusaders who dressed and fought like men. These women actively participated in battles in the Holy Land, challenging traditional roles assigned to them and showcasing their valor on the battlefield.''

And again, the title of a knight is also a military rank, not merely an aristocratic one. A lady who is an aristocrat but doesn't fight is well, a lady. A female equivalent of a lord. Knights, meanwhile, are expected to go out there and fight. A female aristocrat who never fought wouldn't be called a knight, she'd just be a lady of the manor, which ironically enough, would mean that she outranks knights in the Medieval pecking order and could probably order knights around. It wouldn't be that strange to see a lady of the manor going on pilgrimage with her household knights guarding her as she goes.

Which again, makes GRRM's hand-wringing over Brienne being treated like an alien for being a warrior who dresses like men look stupid, when Crusading armies had women who dressed and fought like men. Crusading armies had the blessing of the Church and the adoration of the Medieval public, yet they had no problems having women dress and fight like men among them.

Hell, if the HOTD show-writers wanted to push the whole ''women's rights'' thing with Rhaenyra, she could've created an order of female knights or a bodyguard detail of female warriors. Then you can have the Greens insult her and say that women can't be knights, with Alicent condemning the idea, saying that she's endangering the women under her command by expecting them to fight and die like men.

 

[Your Girlfriend's Dad]

There's been more thought put into the setting of Westeros than any show writer or even the author have since at least 2017 if not longer.

That's pretty sad.