How Are Catholics Not Comitting idoaltry

[Saddam Hussain Obama]

I like a lot about Catholics, but praying to statues and images seems to bother me. How is this not idolatry?

 

[Bloons TD 6]

I always thought the whole "do not worship false idols" thing was more about the idea not to replace God in your life with something else. For example when going through tough times it is supposed to teach you to turn to God instead of drugs or alcohol or other coping mechanisms. In turning to something other than God you would be "worshipping" a false idol such as Pornography.

 

[Shamefur Dispray]

Actually research the word idolatry before you ask a stupid question.

 

[bliblblblbbllb]

It's not just the Catholics, the Orthodox are the same way, and it honestly seems like worshiping other people who are just really cool within your religion is older than the idea that you should not do that and only worship God. [Older != correct]

They'll say it's because of stuff like, you're not REALLY worshipping Mary, you're asking Mary to pray to God on your behalf, or you're commemorating how a person was a good follower of God. Adoration or meditation or veneration, etc. And then the prayers are like "MARY IS MAGICAL HER MAGICAL WOMB GRANT ME STRENGTH MARY YOU DO THE STRENGTH-GRANTING" and it's just really hard to buy the whole "not REALLY worshiping her" thing. It's worship when its to God, and meditation when it's to others? How convenient!

They'll also say it's not the image or the statue they worship, that's basically just either a study aid, or also commemorative/veneration.

If you have a Christmas Tree or Jack O' Lantern, or enjoy a local statue of an important figure, and don't think that's real idolatry, don't get too pissy about people with medallions and things for various Saints.

There are certainly false idols that are broad abstract things like pornography, but also definitely literal ones. The Bible, from what I know, mostly is referring to literal idols, like literal carved pieces of wood and stone that people worshipped for various reasons. Something people would do to worship idols would be offer them food, and to idol-worshippers, it was super bad to eat food offered to idols. Christians can eat food offered to idols because idols aren't real gods, but it's made clear that you shouldn't go around pissing idol-worshippers off like this.

Have a read through 1 Cor 10 and around there. Bold text emphasis mine:

If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions, for the sake of conscience. But if anyone says to you, “This is meat sacrificed to idols,” do not eat it, for the sake of that one who informed you and for the sake of conscience; Now by “conscience” I do not mean your own, but the other person’s; for why is my freedom judged by another’s conscience? If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered about that for which I give thanks?

Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all things for the glory of God. Do not offend Jews or Greeks, or the church of God; just as I also please everyone in all things, not seeking my own benefit but the benefit of the many, so that they may be saved.

It's better to have Christians doing stuff you think is wrong, than people who aren't Christians at all.

Also, if you want the Catholics and Orthodox to tell you every way you're interpreting the Bible wrong, they will..... there's really tons of "gotcha!"-seeming things. Oh, you say you are a Christian, but.... this, that, the other.

It's also pulling teeth to argue this with Catholics, because they draw from sources outside of the Bible as authoritative proof.... sources that you probably don't give a damn about. You can just quote 1 Tim 2:5 and run away feeling like you won a debate, even though the Catholic is going to not care just like you don't care about what the Pope says.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

[Kujo Jotaro]

Because it's just not, it's just not, ok!

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

They are.

 

[ITK]

Something people would do to worship idols would be offer them food, and to idol-worshippers, it was super bad to eat food offered to idols. Christians can eat food offered to idols because idols aren't real gods, but it's made clear that you shouldn't go around pissing idol-worshippers off like this.

No, this is the total inverse of the actual situation. In the ancient world, animals would be brought to the temple and slaughtered as a sacrifice to the gods, and then the meat would be sold to the market and eaten. The pagans had no qualms with eating sacrificed meat. In fact, almost all meat you could get your hands on would've been sacrificed. It was the Christians who refused to eat sacrificed meat as one of the few dietary restrictions left, because it had been defiled by the demons inhabiting the idols. What Paul is saying is that you should eat whatever is given to you as a matter of hospitality without asking if the meat has been sacrificed, because hospitality is a higher virtue, but if you have been told that the meat has been sacrificed, you should not eat for the sake of the one with weaker faith, that you shall not scandalize.

 

[Stan]

Catholics are kind of dumb, mostly because their liturgy was in Vulgar Latin until Vatican II.
So originally the church had to deal with all these dumb illiterate peasants, so churches started to decorate their worship space with depictions of religious figures and stories in order to relate the basic facts and concepts of the religion to people who couldn't read. You're not really praying to the statue or the icon but to the saint it represents, who is a servant of God.

Catholics also love to hang naked, crucified Jesuses wherever there is space. They're usually ultra-realistic and Jesus is toned, hot, and writhing in pain. This is because Catholics are closeted homos and looking at the naked body of Jesus is stimulating to them.

So no, I don't think it's idolatry because Catholics aren't praying and sacrificing to the statues themselves. They're praying to whomever is represented in the image. But it is a little dumb and unnecessary this day in age.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

They are and they will burn in Hell, not for that though.

 

[Mothra1988]

Beause Constantine combined Roman paganism with Chrsitinaity becuase his main group of subjects were pagans, not Jews, who had the taboo about that kind of behavior already ingrained into them. I think having icons is fine, but don't think directly praying to them is probably a good idea. Overall, artwork is an important part of any form of communication, and religion should be communicated, so this is one of the lesser offensive thigs about Catholics to me as long as it doesn't go to extremes.

 

[Megaton Punch]

"Idolatry" is one of those things that's ultimately a purity spiral and therefore largely meaningless. No matter where you draw the line, someone else can draw it earlier and accuse you of idolatry, and your only possible response is "it doesn't count when I do it". Unless you're prepared to never look at an image of God or Jesus ever again, you're an idolator.

This is, incidentally, the attitude many types of Islam have. The reason you can't depict Mohammed is because all depictions are idols. You can pray to him, but you can't pray to an image of him.

Everyone in here talking about Mary or saints or whatever isn't even talking about idolatry. Idols are, by definition, man-made objects designed to represent a deity. Even if Catholics did literally worship saints as a pantheon, that still wouldn't be idolatry, it would be heresy.

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

Boy you'd have freaked out if you saw the Arc of the Covenant in the OT days then.

 

[Ouro Boros]

You misspelled "idolatry" in the thread header.

 

[The_Coverten]

Wow! And you guys were so close. Has anyone considered that the whole Western Church (Roman Catholic and Protestant denominations) are committing idolatry by worshiping women and feminism. I don't know if anyone is familiar with the whole head covering scandal of the sixties, and Vatican II? Good research and info to use against Christian's supporting feminism. I actually got kicked out of my church and denied every Biblical right because I brought this issue up with the pastor. And it was an extremely conservative church at that. But the Apostle Paul describes idolatry in Romans 1:

"For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

This is a pretty good description of how society has changed since the mid twentieth century. But notice how idolatry is based on creatures such as or animals and even mankind. Women definitely fit that description found in Holy Scripture. There have been countless female goddesses and idols throughout history and various religions. But every time I ask Christians to consider this, I get yelled at and accused of chauvinism. haha. In any case, interesting to hear if even one other soul on the planet thinks this is a possibility.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

There's zero difference in substance between praying to a saint and asking someone you know to pray for you. Would you refuse someone's request that you pray for them because it's "idolatry"? The word pray simply means to ask.

Saints are human individuals we know are united with God in heaven and will be able to intercede with their own prayers more effectively because their will has been totally conformed to his own. So we may not pray for something in the way God wills it, but they know what that is and can request it on our behalf. Kind of like hiring a specialist instead of DIY, God of course can answer our prayers at any time and in any form if he so chooses.

Also keep in mind there are different levels of worship in the Catholic Church. Latria is the form of supreme worship due only to God alone, which is embodied in the Mass and Eucharist and other sacraments. Dulia is the ordinary devotion to saints, with hyperdulia being the term for devotion to the Virgin Mary due to her special position as Mother of God.

 

[Taco Salad]

Yeah, a lot of Catholic traditions are really fucking sus even if they aren't technically outright "idolatry."
It's been irritating to me, because I joined the Catholic Church 2 years ago after coming to Christianity as an adult - I chose it due to its beauty, international presence, strong social teachings against liberal insanity, and how level-headed Catholics seemed compared to the more emotional-based "Jesus loves me" types in Protestant churches. Alas, I couldn't deal with the borderline worship of Mary and other insane Catholic-only theological teachings. I left and am in the process of trying to find a Protestant church, which is hard because I live in a college town so the majority of them are very progressive.

I enjoy sperging about my gripes with Catholicism, so behold the following if you're so inclined:

Spoiler: Sperging about Catholic Dogma

1) Mary's Perpetual Virginity:
This goes for Orthodoxy as well, but I don't get why they're so obsessed with Mary's virginity. Specifically, her perpetual virginity. Mary was properly married to Joseph, let the lady have sex with her husband, dang. There's literally nothing in the New Testament to support the idea that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus' birth - in fact, see Matthew 1:24-25: "When Joseph woke up, he did as the Lord’s angel had commanded him. He married her but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son." Not to mention James' title as the "brother of Jesus" as well as Matthew 13:55-56 and Mark 6:3: "“Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother called Mary, and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, aren’t they all with us?"
Catholics and Orthodox argue that "brothers/sisters" in this context might imply "cousins" or that they were Joseph's children before Mary, but those just seems like unnecessary reaches when there shouldn't be an issue with Mary and Joseph having children after Jesus to begin with. But because Catholic and Orthodox came up with this extra-biblical tradition about Mary needing to be "sinless" in order to even give birth to Jesus, they came up with this perpetual virginity shit. Way to sell God short, guys - He can perform miracles and walk on water, but not enter the world through a normal human female who has committed sin like anyone else?
I'm against most feminist nonsense, but this obsessive fixation on Mary being a perpetual virgin despite the clear evidence otherwise actually disgusts me.

2) Praying to Saints:
If someone really believes in Jesus and everything Christianity preaches, why would you want to pray to Mary or another saint instead of directly to Jesus (or the Father)? Paul says that we should be unashamed to approach the throne of God directly, for we have Jesus as a mediator. In fact, the NT says that Jesus is the only mediator between God and Man. Mary and other saints are not included in that list.
The Catholic argument, which was repeated on this thread and which I always hear from my Catholic roommate, is that saints can "assist" you by praying to God on your behalf. But I don't believe this to be possible, given that saints do not have omniscience, so how could they even hear prayers like God can? Even if they can somehow hear, I don't think we should encourage people to seek alternatives to approaching God directly.

3) General Mary Shenanigans and Apparitions
The Catholic focus on Mary in general is pretty bad - definitely borders on the edge of worship. I felt like I was committing a sin by praying the Rosary with other Catholics - "Holy Mary, Mother of God..." Who is Holy besides God? The nonsense Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity doctrines combined have really done a lot to push people towards a veneration so strong that it blurs the line of idolatry and adoration. Either way, what they're venerating certainly isn't the historical Mary, but one of various man-made legends that came about in order to explain how it was possible for God to inhabit a sin-inclined human body - apparently forgetting that God is supreme and can do any miracle He wishes. In fact, IMO it lessens the impact of the gospel message if God had to force Mary to be without Original Sin in order to enter the world through her child. Forcing a human to be without sin? That's cheating. A true supreme deity with endless love for mankind would come into the world even through a sin-inclined human.
And the "apparitions" of Mary officially endorsed by the Catholic Church? Lord have mercy, these people are getting tricked by schizophrenic episodes and/or demonic spirits fucking around. Actually look up anything any one of these "apparitions" are recorded as saying, and it's clear as day that they aren't legitimate - they either spout off whatever the viewers themselves already believed, or very suspicious bullshit. Also, why does only Mary show up, and not any of the other saints? Sus. One example is Our Lady of Guadalupe in which Mary demands the experiencer to build a temple in Mary's name so that his village can worship her: "I wish that a temple be erected here quickly, so I may therein exhibit and give all my love, compassion, help, and protection, because I am your merciful mother, to you, and to all the inhabitants on this land and all the rest who love me, invoke and confide in me; listen there to their lamentations, and remedy all their miseries, afflictions and sorrows... that here on this plain a temple be built to me... I will be most grateful and will reward you, because I will make you happy and worthy of recompense..." If that's not actual Pagan bullshit, then what is it? What servant of God would ask you to build a temple in THEIR name, for THEM, and not for God? People who fall for the Mary Apparitions even after reading "her" actual messages are a special level of stupid.

4) Miss a Mass? To Hell with you!
If a Catholic misses a Mass or a Holy Day of Obligation, and then dies without confessing it, then according to official teaching they will be going straight to Hell. This is absolutely fucking retarded and needs no further comment than that.

5) Confession in General
The NT encourages Christians to "confess your sins to one another" and directly to God. The "sacrament" of Confession is yet another man-made tradition that has no roots in the earliest church or in the Bible. If it helps some people feel better then I have no personal issue with it, but it shouldn't be forced upon everyone.

6) Transubstantiation
So I admit that I've had a few experiences during Eucharistic Adoration where I felt a powerful spiritual presence (and I'm very skeptical about supernatural shit). So, I'm open to the idea that there is some sort of spiritual presence in the Eucharist. Or maybe God is just working through the focused meditation. Transubstantiation is just weird, though... and it doesn't help that in the Mass, the Priest is "re-sacrificing" Jesus to God... what the fuck? Whatever the truth of the presence (or lack of) in the Eucharist though, Catholics are a little too obsessed with their ultra-literal interpretation imho. Growing closer to God doesn't come through eating a cracker.

tl;dr - what the fuck are Catholics even doing, maybe they should read the NT

Despite all of that ranting though, there are still things I respect about Catholicism, and currently my closest friends are Catholics. However, I absolutely believe praying the Rosary is one step away from committing a sin, and the "praying to saints" shit is an unnecessary distraction when we are encouraged to go "directly to the throne of God as His adopted children."
Maybe most Catholics don't commit pure idolatry, but their (man-made) traditions sure as fuck encourage them towards that direction at every turn.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

1) Mary's Perpetual Virginity:
This goes for Orthodoxy as well, but I don't get why they're so obsessed with Mary's virginity. Specifically, her perpetual virginity. Mary was properly married to Joseph, let the lady have sex with her husband, dang. There's literally nothing in the New Testament to support the idea that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus' birth - in fact, see Matthew 1:24-25: "When Joseph woke up, he did as the Lord’s angel had commanded him. He married her but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son." Not to mention James' title as the "brother of Jesus" as well as Matthew 13:55-56 and Mark 6:3: "“Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers? Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother called Mary, and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, aren’t they all with us?"

Perpetual virginity is an ancient dogma that goes back to the origin of the Church itself, which is why it is shared between Catholicism and all forms of Orthodoxy. The Protestant reformers also did not deny this doctrine, this developed later much like completely removing the Apocrypha from the Bible.

There are theological reasons why it's important that are difficult to go into detail here but I can provide sources.

Catholics and Orthodox argue that "brothers/sisters" in this context might imply "cousins" or that they were Joseph's children before Mary, but those just seems like unnecessary reaches when there shouldn't be an issue with Mary and Joseph having children after Jesus to begin with. But because Catholic and Orthodox came up with this extra-biblical tradition about Mary needing to be "sinless" in order to even give birth to Jesus, they came up with this perpetual virginity shit. Way to sell God short, guys - He can perform miracles and walk on water, but not enter the world through a normal human female who has committed sin like anyone else?

It does matter because family relations in ancient Jewish culture had different meanings than they do today., and something this ancient is clearly based upon traditions dating back to the time Mary herself and the rest of the Apostles were alive. There are theological reasons why Mary had to be sinless during her life that are way too involved to put here, but I can provide them.

The Immaculate Conception is completely separate from the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Orthodox for example don't share this particular belief because they have a different concept of original sin making it unnecessary. There was a lot of debate and around it, including St. Thomas Aquinas, until it was finally defined as a Catholic dogma in the 1850s.

2) Praying to Saints:

The Catholic argument, which was repeated on this thread and which I always hear from my Catholic roommate, is that saints can "assist" you by praying to God on your behalf. But I don't believe this to be possible, given that saints do not have omniscience, so how could they even hear prayers like God can? Even if they can somehow hear, I don't think we should encourage people to seek alternatives to approaching God directly.

Souls in heaven are "like the angels" and God can give them abilities humans are incapable of on Earth. Really the primary benefit of praying to a saint is they are conformed entirely to God's will and may be able to pray for what you really need in that situation, something you may not be able to think of yourself. However I would still pray directly to God as well, there's no reason not to when you freely can at any time.

Keep in mind there's zero obligation whatsoever to participate in any Marian devotions or devotions to saints in Catholicism.

3) General Mary Shenanigans and Apparitions
The Catholic focus on Mary in general is pretty bad - definitely borders on the edge of worship. I felt like I was committing a sin by praying the Rosary with other Catholics - "Holy Mary, Mother of God..." Who is Holy besides God? The nonsense Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity doctrines combined have really done a lot to push people towards a veneration so strong that it blurs the line of idolatry and adoration.

In Romans and 1 Peter it uses "holy" to describe the saints so that's not an issue, it's ancient Christian practice. By their very nature they are united with God in heaven.

Either way, what they're venerating certainly isn't the historical Mary, but one of various man-made legends that came about in order to explain how it was possible for God to inhabit a sin-inclined human body - apparently forgetting that God is supreme and can do any miracle He wishes. In fact, IMO it lessens the impact of the gospel message if God had to force Mary to be without Original Sin in order to enter the world through her child. Forcing a human to be without sin? That's cheating. A true supreme deity with endless love for mankind would come into the world even through a sin-inclined human.

I do agree, however, that Marian devotion crosses the line at times. There is still a problem with very bad catechesis in the Church and it leads to idolatrous and superstitious practices. The very nature of

And the "apparitions" of Mary officially endorsed by the Catholic Church? Lord have mercy, these people are getting tricked by schizophrenic episodes and/or demonic spirits fucking around. Actually look up anything any one of these "apparitions" are recorded as saying, and it's clear as day that they aren't legitimate - they either spout off whatever the viewers themselves already believed, or very suspicious bullshit. Also, why does only Mary show up, and not any of the other saints? Sus. One example is Our Lady of Guadalupe in which Mary demands the experiencer to build a temple in Mary's name so that his village can worship her: "I wish that a temple be erected here quickly, so I may therein exhibit and give all my love, compassion, help, and protection, because I am your merciful mother, to you, and to all the inhabitants on this land and all the rest who love me, invoke and confide in me; listen there to their lamentations, and remedy all their miseries, afflictions and sorrows... that here on this plain a temple be built to me... I will be most grateful and will reward you, because I will make you happy and worthy of recompense..." If that's not actual Pagan bullshit, then what is it? What servant of God would ask you to build a temple in THEIR name, for THEM, and not for God? People who fall for the Mary Apparitions even after reading "her" actual messages are a special level of stupid.

This is Mexico in 1531 and a verbal report from a Chichimec peasant who lived most of his life before the Spanish even arrived. None of the native languages even had a word for church, temple was what they were familiar with and would understand. I interpret that statement to mean building a church consecrated to Mary on the site, which is what the Spanish did as well.

This and other Marian apparitions are heavily investigated by the Church to determine whether they are worthy of belief, they just don't take them at face value. However, there is no obligation to accept any Marian apparition as legitimate whatsoever.

You can completely ignore them or disbelieve them, they are private revelation that is not binding on any believer.

4) Miss a Mass? To Hell with you!
If a Catholic misses a Mass or a Holy Day of Obligation, and then dies without confessing it, then according to official teaching they will be going straight to Hell. This is absolutely fucking retarded and needs no further comment than that.

Only if you intentionally miss it without a good reason and are fully aware missing Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation is a mortal sin. Keep in mind God doesn't play "gotchas", he doesn't want people to go to hell. God knows your intent if you are killed before you can go to Confession or are otherwise unable to do so.

If you hold off thinking you can do it on your deathbed, that's just the sin of presumption.

5) Confession in General
The NT encourages Christians to "confess your sins to one another" and directly to God. The "sacrament" of Confession is yet another man-made tradition that has no roots in the earliest church or in the Bible. If it helps some people feel better then I have no personal issue with it, but it shouldn't be forced upon everyone.

It goes back to the absolute earliest days of the Church although it has changed in form over time due to developments in Eucharistic theology. The Bible itself is a man-made document based upon tradition, it was a Church council that determined which books were inspired scripture and which weren't.

6) Transubstantiation
So I admit that I've had a few experiences during Eucharistic Adoration where I felt a powerful spiritual presence (and I'm very skeptical about supernatural shit). So, I'm open to the idea that there is some sort of spiritual presence in the Eucharist. Or maybe God is just working through the focused meditation. Transubstantiation is just weird, though... and it doesn't help that in the Mass, the Priest is "re-sacrificing" Jesus to God... what the fuck? Whatever the truth of the presence (or lack of) in the Eucharist though, Catholics are a little too obsessed with their ultra-literal interpretation imho. Growing closer to God doesn't come through eating a cracker.

Communion is still a powerful symbol of Christ's passion and death even in churches that don't believe in transubstantiation. It's a lot more than eating a cracker even in those cases!

In the Mass, the priest is acting "in persona Christi", which means he is acting as Christ. So what he is doing is reperforming Christ's own acts at the Last Supper.

 

[oh no its pipkun]

It's also pulling teeth to argue this with Catholics, because they draw from sources outside of the Bible as authoritative proof.... sources that you probably don't give a damn about.

the irony of saying this as if there's a list of canononical books of the bible within the bible itself. there's always an outside source its a mere matter of who you choose to give deference to.

 

[grimacefetishist]

I don't know much about Christian cosmology but I think saints, Christmas trees, and snowmen are okay because they are holy people, trees, and really cool respectively.

Jack o lanterns are a bit more controversial because pumpkins are a pestilence and they're not even that great for eating. And radishes also taste off to a lot of people.

 

[The Tall Man]

Catholics are kind of dumb, mostly because their liturgy was in Vulgar Latin until Vatican II.
So originally the church had to deal with all these dumb illiterate peasants, so churches started to decorate their worship space with depictions of religious figures and stories in order to relate the basic facts and concepts of the religion to people who couldn't read. You're not really praying to the statue or the icon but to the saint it represents, who is a servant of God.

Medieval peasants were literate. The Church communicated and preached exclusively in Latin for a reason: Europeans were unwilling to abandon their traditional morals and beliefs. The Church and its Book lacked the power to convince the people. Instead, they incorporated Christian elements by placing crosses on pagan holy sites, renaming pagan holidays after made up saints, and securing allegiance to the church.

Weddings, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, etc.—all ancient European traditions that the Church painted a cross onto.

Europe was predominantly Christian in name only; this is why the Puritans left.