How do Protestants cope with the societies they have created?

[mr.moon1488]

I'm not asking this question as a defense of the Catholic church since it too is corrupt, decadent, and in serious need of replacement, but it is odd how protestants react to the state of the western world. If you ask most of them what is wrong in the west, they'll respond with something along the lines of "its abandoned its Christian principles," but on the same note, if something is proposed along the lines of a return to a more theocratic society, they'll lash out against it. The most coherent response is basically a desire for a return to the early 18th century, but if the protestant in question actually has read enough history to understand that, that is basically just a return to a church run by the British government (which is now a cow government) they'll also be against that.

Furthermore, most US protestants I've talked to at least seem to have an utter disdain for discussing anything relevant to Christian history, and even treat points taken directly from the bible with a great deal of disdain if they contradict whatever they were taught growing up. On the topic of US protestant dogma V.S. actual Christian dogma, there are a lot of points that simply don't match up. US protestants regard being a mindless prole "a good worker" as particularly pious, and yet on numerous accounts does Christ regard secular works as unimportant in comparison to faith. In Genesis worldly works are actually given unto Adam (man) as a form of punishment. US protestants also seem to put faith in Christ at a very low priority, but in Luke, Christ makes it clear that it is to be above even family, which obviously means even above the nation. Likewise, many protestant faiths have no issue with women in the clergy despite the fact that this is expressly forbidden in Timothy. Furthermore, there are many practices US protestants in particular take part in which run directly contrary to the bible. For instance, circumcision is not allowed in Corinthians, but most US protestants believe one is to be circumcised. On just general knowledge too, most protestants do not know that the correct translation of the 6th commandment is "thou shall not murder" and not "thou shall not kill" which have distinctly different meanings. Likewise, the 3rd commandment of not taking the lord's name in vain has nothing to do with using the lord's name as a curse word, it has to do with making promises on behalf of God, which is something you see protestant preachers on TV doing quite often with heretical acts such as faith healing.

 

[millais]

Is predestination the ultimate fatalistic cope? It was always going to happen; God willed it to happen. If God didn't will it to happen, it wouldn't have happened.

 

[kartofel]

I can't really give you a definitive answer since I was raised Catholic and am presently agnostic. I suspect a lot of Protestants simply don't think of it. Most people, regardless of religious beliefs are simply incapable of higher order thought, and usually identify with a religion because they were raised with it and it is simply what is done. A lot of people will also pick their church based on the "vibe" of the church or whether they like the way the preacher speaks. I think for most people, religion is a secondary experience done because of custom and it is a good way to socialize, not necessarily because of any deep beliefs or theological consideration. This means that outside of zealots, most people are not looking for anything more than a religious themed social club. This is why female ministers and vague theology are acceptable. In fact, I would say they are preferable, rigorous theology would probably demand an alteration to their lifestyle, and they don't really want that. I think Catholicism may seem like less of a mess because it has a standardized doctrine and the average layman can always pass the buck to the nearest priest when it comes to theological issues. With Protestantism, there are as many potential sects as there are Protestants, so it seems messier. I suspect the majority of people in both churches are there because of cultural inertia rather than any sincere belief.

Oddly enough, it reminds me of what I read about Classical Roman religion prior to the rise of Christianity. Most people no longer really believed in or respected the pagan gods, but were just going through the motions because they didn't have an alternative. I think we are seeing the same phenomenon. Communism has many qualities of a religion, and I think it is trying to fill the niche as a replacement, but because it tries to implement a sort of paradise in this life, it usually implodes within a generation or two because it becomes obvious that it has the opposite effect.

 

[Coconut Gun]

Why are we only talking about Christianity in regards to "the state of the western world" when there's (((another religion))) to consider as well?

 

[kartofel]

Why are we only talking about Christianity when there's (((another religion))) to consider as well?

That (((religion))) doesn't need to cope. They are downright proud of the world they've created.

 

[mr.moon1488]

Why are we only talking about Christianity in regards to "the state of the western world" when there's (((another religion))) to consider as well?

Well, that's not something I haven't observed with regards to Protestantism, I just didn't want to make the thread entirely about that.

For some exculpatory evidence on this topic with regards to Protestantism.

On the Jews and Their Lies - Martin Luther

https://archive.ph/4P98m

 

[Ben10]

I think the reality of it is that religion is just diluted on a generational level. Churches used to be the epicenter of people's communities and a way to know your neighbors every Sunday. With aetheism on the rise and perpetual adolescence/"rebellion against what your parents did because you're smarter than those boomers" being the new zeitgeist that sense of shared culture and community has been replaced. "Being nice and tolerant like jesus", inclusive rainbow flags, and dithering sermons about how nationalism is evil and we all need to come together are what remains.

The same forces that infected academia and government have infected Protestantism. But this is just what I see as an outsider. I can't comment on spiritual feelings.

As an aside, Being raised catholic but currently atheists, I do have an appreciation for the Catholic Church as just this institution that has existed and shaped Western Culture for almost 2000 years. But I also differentiate thousands of years of scholarship and nation building with a the Bolivarian liberation theology that gets vomited out today.

I think it all speaks to an engineered alienation of the youth of today from their roots.

 

[Certified_Autist]

I'm hesitant to paint all Protestants with the same brush, since "Protestantism" covers a broad swath of denominations. There's a major difference between criticisms you could direct at Mainline/High Church Protestants, and criticisms that could be directed at Low Church Evangelical protestants. The Episcopalian Church is a very different beast than the Southern Baptist Church, which in turn is very different from the various Pentecostal and 7th-day types, which in turn appear formal and organized compared to various independent "fundie" churches in rural areas. You really can't criticize the Church of England the same way you would criticize the Appalachian sects leftover from the pioneer era who speak in tounges and handle snakes during worship ceremonies.

I suppose the above only applies if you mean to make a theological critique- if you mean to argue about the effect of Protestantism on broader society, then lumping them together could be done simply for the sake of argument.

In spite of what I wrote above, I will try to keep my critique as general as possible for the sake of simplicity, otherwise I'd have to write a book.

Furthermore, most US protestants I've talked to at least seem to have an utter disdain for discussing anything relevant to Christian history, and even treat points taken directly from the bible with a great deal of disdain if they contradict whatever they were taught growing up. On the topic of US protestant dogma V.S. actual Christian dogma, there are a lot of points that simply don't match up.

For many that's a product of lack of historical/theological education (I mean that genuinely, not as an insult) combined with sola scriptura. So they often have a limited/poor knowledge of Christian history as well as limited/poor knowledge of how Protestant sects splintered and evolved over time. And Sola Scriptura limits their perspective, (and adds to the limited knowledge problem) since anything besides the 66 Bible books is ignored. No Apocrypha, no Jerome, no Augustine (some mainline Protestants excepted).

I don't mean to paint all Protestants as being ignorant/only knowing surface-level Christian history, but enough are that way that it is a trend.

There's also the classic mindset (happens in every Christian denomination, but some are more blatant) where they believe certain things first then cherry-pick scriptural justification for them, as opposed to deriving beliefs from scripture.

US protestants regard being a mindless prole "a good worker" as particularly pious, and yet on numerous accounts does Christ regard secular works as unimportant in comparison to faith. In Genesis worldly works are actually given unto Adam (man) as a form of punishment.

You're not wrong that that emphasis exists; the "protestant work ethic" didn't come out of nowhere. The reason I think the "good worker" thing is intended to be secular is a lot of those same Protestant sects are very big on salvation by faith alone though grace alone. Generally, they regard secular work as being separate from faith and more in line with being a good citizen, i.e having a good secular work ethic is in line with Jesus's command to "render unto Caesar what is his". Paul also touched on that I believe, but the exact quote escapes me right now.

US protestants also seem to put faith in Christ at a very low priority, but in Luke, Christ makes it clear that it is to be above even family, which obviously means even above the nation. Likewise, many protestant faiths have no issue with women in the clergy despite the fact that this is expressly forbidden in Timothy. Furthermore, there are many practices US protestants in particular take part in which run directly contrary to the bible. For instance, circumcision is not allowed in Corinthians, but most US protestants believe one is to be circumcised. On just general knowledge too, most protestants do not know that the correct translation of the 6th commandment is "thou shall not murder" and not "thou shall not kill" which have distinctly different meanings. Likewise, the 3rd commandment of not taking the lord's name in vain has nothing to do with using the lord's name as a curse word, it has to do with making promises on behalf of God, which is something you see protestant preachers on TV doing quite often with heretical acts such as faith healing.

The biggest flaws of Protestantism are ultimately lack of knowledge and lack of a spine. Many sects, as the result of sola scriptura, take the entire Bible as equally important, which ignores the parts of the New Testament where the Old Testament Law was put to rest by the Apostles. This led to the things you pointed out with churches that still incorporate Jewish practices, like circumcision, passover celebrations, primary focus on generic "God" at the cost of downplaying Jesus, etc. Some more fundie sects have adopted OT laws about women not cutting hair and the like. Faith healing is biblical as it is mentioned in the New Testament, (although it arguably only applied to the Apostles). Regardless, the way it is used by televangelists and preachers today is definitely bullshit cash grabbing.

Lack of a spine explains the other stuff like caving on women clergy, liberal sects embracing LGBT, and so on. As well as acceptance of "prosperity gospel" and other nonsensical interpetations.

I can't really give you a definitive answer since I was raised Catholic and am presently agnostic. I suspect a lot of Protestants simply don't think of it. Most people, regardless of religious beliefs are simply incapable of higher order thought, and usually identify with a religion because they were raised with it and it is simply what is done. A lot of people will also pick their church based on the "vibe" of the church or whether they like the way the preacher speaks. I think for most people, religion is a secondary experience done because of custom and it is a good way to socialize, not necessarily because of any deep beliefs or theological consideration. This means that outside of zealots, most people are not looking for anything more than a religious themed social club. This is why female ministers and vague theology are acceptable. In fact, I would say they are preferable, rigorous theology would probably demand an alteration to their lifestyle, and they don't really want that. I think Catholicism may seem like less of a mess because it has a standardized doctrine and the average layman can always pass the buck to the nearest priest when it comes to theological issues. With Protestantism, there are as many potential sects as there are Protestants, so it seems messier.

I suspect the majority of people in both churches are there because of cultural inertia rather than any sincere belief.

Very good summary, I would say the best way to sum up the fall of American Protestantism is that for most of its adherents it became a culture/heritage, rather than a genuine religious philosophy, which left the religious debates to be dominated by the politically motivated and the perpetually disgruntled.

The disconnect between the "normie" protestant culture defined by little more than a shared community, and the "theological" protestant culture defined by endless debate over who was right, led to a very schizophrenic and disjointed community where the theologians bitterly argue and schism churches over semantic theological points, while the congregations mostly go to church because their parents did, and change churches based on whether they like the "people" or the "vibe".

The same thing is happening to Catholicism, albeit more slowly, since they have a central administrative core more or less holding it together.

Basically what you said:

Oddly enough, it reminds me of what I read about Classical Roman religion prior to the rise of Christianity. Most people no longer really believed in or respected the pagan gods, but were just going through the motions because they didn't have an alternative.

 

[Troonos]

Why would we cope with creating the West?

 

[likeacrackado]

America has become irreparably worse as Catholicism's influence demographically and in government/legal matters has grown. This point is virtually inarguable.

 

[mr.moon1488]

@Certified_Autist (can't quote)
>I'm hesitant to paint all Protestants with the same brush, since "Protestantism" covers a broad swath of denominations.
That kind of gets to the crux of the issue I have with Protestantism in general though. They don't really have any one organization that can actually say "no" to anything after deliberation so they ultimately end up just accepting any opinion, no matter how blasphemous, as dogma. For instance, I think a lot of the bizarre dogma from the seventh-day Adventists actually stems from the wife of one of the church founders. Almost all of it is basically personal opinion with little to no foundation in Christianity such as their vegan practices. Of course, this also has opened the door to just overtly subversive churches which couldn't care less about Christianity, but want to use it as a springboard for their own beliefs.

To me, it seems like Protestantism has a very small subsection of well-meaning, but misguided believers, and the rest of it are just secular political groups pretending to be religious for the sake of the advantages that gives.

America has become irreparably worse as Catholicism's influence demographically and in government/legal matters has grown. This point is virtually inarguable.

Lol, yeah no. The US had the chance to actually do something about by far the worst church in history (to include churches like the Iconoclasts, and Adamites), the Anglican/Episcopal church, and instead of actually banning them from the US and sending them back to their garbage dump island, they made them basically the "official" church of the US.

 

[Certified_Autist]

America has become irreparably worse as Catholicism's influence demographically and in government/legal matters has grown. This point is virtually inarguable.

I've thought about this too. I even have a schizo conspiracy. I have no proof or sources to support this, just my hypothesis.

Spoiler: Schizo

* It is generally known that the Vatican wielded immense influence in European politcal and financial affairs for centuries
* This influence was weakened directly and indirectly by the Protestant Reformation, for the obvious reason that Protestants don't listen to the Pope.
* The first white settlements in America were overwhelmingly Protestant (Latin America excluded since we are talking USA)
* American colonies declare independence, becomes USA. Still overwhelmingly Protestant, and spreading further over the continent with every passing decade
* Vatican wants influence in the political and financial affiars of this new, growing empire
* Vatican somehow changes immigration flow to support immigration to America from Catholic countries, instead of England and Germany
* Most immigration now from Ireland, Poland, Italy, all of which are "coincidentially" catholic countries
* American major cities dominated by micks, wops, and poles by 1900
* Even more so by 1950
* These groups, being culturally/religiously Catholic, are more likely/willing to serve interests of Vatican
* Success.jpeg

@Certified_Autist (can't quote)
>I'm hesitant to paint all Protestants with the same brush, since "Protestantism" covers a broad swath of denominations.
That kind of gets to the crux of the issue I have with Protestantism in general though. They don't really have any one organization that can actually say "no" to anything after deliberation so they ultimately end up just accepting any opinion, no matter how blasphemous, as dogma. For instance, I think a lot of the bizarre dogma from the seventh-day Adventists actually stems from the wife of one of the church founders. Almost all of it is basically personal opinion with little to no foundation in Christianity such as their vegan practices. Of course, this also has opened the door to just overtly subversive churches which couldn't care less about Christianity, but want to use it as a springboard for their own beliefs.

I agree with your above assessment of Protestantism but I don't have the IQ or energy at this time of night to meaningfully add to that or think of a solution

Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. They run away from the Catholic issue of dogmatic adherence to a single institution and single party line no matter what issues that may have, and run into the opposite problem of not having an institution or party line stable enough to prop up their movement.

To me, it seems like Protestantism has a very small subsection of well-meaning, but misguided believers, and the rest of it are just secular political groups pretending to be religious for the sake of the advantages that gives.

There's a decent percentage of Protestants who are true believers, they pray, read the Bible, and so on, but don't actually go to church for various reasons including some we both mention. Those types tend to be overlooked since they aren't in the pews to begin with. For church-going protestants your description is pretty much on point. I'd add there's a third faction separate from true believers and political groups. They don't have strong opinions on religion and simply use church as a convenient social circle, and thus don't really care about the accuracy or consistency of the theology.

 

[Moja Zemlja]

>I'm hesitant to paint all Protestants with the same brush, since "Protestantism" covers a broad swath of denominations.
That kind of gets to the crux of the issue I have with Protestantism in general though. They don't really have any one organization that can actually say "no" to anything after deliberation so they ultimately end up just accepting any opinion, no matter how blasphemous, as dogma. For instance, I think a lot of the bizarre dogma from the seventh-day Adventists actually stems from the wife of one of the church founders. Almost all of it is basically personal opinion with little to no foundation in Christianity such as their vegan practices. Of course, this also has opened the door to just overtly subversive churches which couldn't care less about Christianity, but want to use it as a springboard for their own beliefs.

I always make the distinction between Europe and American Protestantism for exactly this reason, not to say that you won't find wacko churches here that fall prey to the same issues but as most either originate from the reformation or splintered off from those churches later on you tend to find far more rational (and closer to scripture) teachings. The great awakenings have only seen Christianity in America diverge more and more from Europe to the point that it represents the kind of stuff you see in Africa more than in Europe half the time.

 

[The Gene Genie]

Is predestination the ultimate fatalistic cope? It was always going to happen; God willed it to happen. If God didn't will it to happen, it wouldn't have happened.

Predestination is the logical end-result of Christian theology. Not that I agree with that, but when you take what is said to the logical conclusion, then it's really the only answer. Christianity is a fatalist religion, in a way.

Not Christian, though.

 

[Angry Alt Right Nerd]

It doesn't matter, they don't care about society, they only care about signalling how virtuous, faithful, and manly they are.

 

[Blake Chortles]

I think the confusion is you think all Protestants are Christians in 2022. Episcopalians, most
Lutherans, umc, pcusa, even the faction in control of the sbc, and others as denominations have no concern for God. So when its proposed we stop falling away they get mealy mouthed.

Reformed baptists among others haven’t changed their tune in significant ways. The Bible says what it says the denominations heeding that change, not Christianity.

 

[The Ugly One]

I always make the distinction between Europe and American Protestantism for exactly this reason, not to say that you won't find wacko churches here that fall prey to the same issues but as most either originate from the reformation or splintered off from those churches later on you tend to find far more rational (and closer to scripture) teachings. The great awakenings have only seen Christianity in America diverge more and more from Europe to the point that it represents the kind of stuff you see in Africa more than in Europe half the time.

Well, Christianity in Africa and America both involve believing in some kind of deity and going to some kind of church, unlike Europe, where neither of those things seem to be part of it.

 

[Xarpho]

There's a lot of problems within the church, specifically what is a "real Christian" or not. The most commonly accepted is that there's a "trinity", where God exists as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. During Ancient Rome times, God came down as a human, fully man and fully God, born as a human, and eventually put to death for crimes he didn't commit. The way to be "saved" is to accept Jesus as the savior of mankind and accept that he died for your sins. (That's the gist of it anwyay).

Many people don't accept Mormons as Christians because their doctrine basically is founded as "Christianity is corrupt so God revealed an extra set of scripture to a man in upstate New York that changes/corrects a lot of existing scripture" which is seen as heretical. (7th Day Adventists fall into a similar category).

The other problem is that the church quit leading society and culture a long time ago, and a lot of values and morals got corrupted. Hospitality for a foreigner became "yes, support masses who have no common culture or language and will gladly slit my throat if they had the chance come into my nation on my dime", and accepting that we are all human no matter the race became "yes, George Floyd is a hero for bringing into the light that all black people are good and anything that they don't like is racist and must be destroyed forever".

 

[Zarael]

They don't really. Modern Protestantism is a child of the Enlightenment with all the assumptions and baggage that comes with that. In the 18th Century a decision was made by non-religious intellectuals to cast themselves as the heroes in a revised history with a prolonged "Dark Age" of superstitious intolerance that was gradually defeated by facts and logic. As you can tell this revisionist campaign was VERY successful and most of our modern historical consciousness is colored with this propaganda, such as when Galileo is held up as a martyr for science and not just a person who got put on house arrest because he called the Pope a dumbass in a paper he wrote. Until people start really questioning all this stuff we've taken for granted for over a century now we're just going to be digging the hole deeper and deeper. All those people who started this thing rolling were the exact same kind of overly optimistic leftists who think we're going to create a Star Trek style utopia through the power of science. To that end it was necessary to create this narrative of things "progressing" and society moving towards an ultimate goal where humanity surpasses all its old prejudices and creates heaven on earth.

On the bright side there is now a movement among the Christian intelligentsia to dump this narrative and the assumptions it relies on and move back to the traditional form of Christianity which is Christian Platonism. Some Protestants are on board, but predictably others are against it as they try to maintain the shackles of modernity they've become so comfortable with.

https://credomag.com/2021/03/why-should-we-affirm-christian-platonism/

 

[Simony]

You should research the history of Protestant Christianity, attend Protestant churches before making broad judgements about the nature of the sect.

Lutherans, Anabaptists, (maybe Anglicans and Presbyterians too but I might be wrong) have Articles of Faith, which they abide by as faithful Lutherans, that explain Biblical doctrines. They have to wholly accept the Confessions, and that helps maintain orthodoxy.

We have Scripture, and that is the only authority. We don't need anyone to speak in the place of God, only pious individuals.

(The Articles of Faith just catalogue Biblical doctrine).