Insomniacs, Assemble

I haven't been diagnosed either, but I totally have that. I sleep perfectly well if I go to bed at 4 or 5 AM and wake up at 11 or 12, but I can't adjust to a more normal schedule. If I try to wake up earlier, I generally still fall asleep at the same time, and the sleep deprivation just accumulates without significantly changing the circadian rhythm. Rarely I've been able to entrain a somewhat normal schedule, but it inevitably falls apart within about 3 or 4 weeks. Sometimes it descends into complete chaos, taking 2 hour naps 4 or 5 times at random points during the day.

Melatonin appears to lose its effectiveness after a while (though I'm now trying lower doses at earlier times; that's supposed to be better). I can't stand diphenhydramine. I've only tried Ambien a couple times; I know I'd just end up being dependent if I got a prescription, but it seems to work amazingly well as an anxiolytic. I have a very good diet, get plenty of exercise and have cut/changed my caffeine intake, but none of that seems to have made a difference. I switched to using a standing desk, though, and that does appear to improve daytime alertness.

I've been reading about it a lot, and I'm keeping a sleep/symptom diary now in hopes of working toward a diagnosis. Modafinil might be a good thing to try. It's interesting also that DSPD is often comorbid with ADHD or OCD. I haven't been diagnosed with those either, but I do have many of the symptoms, and they're causing me a lot of problems. Hopefully I'll be able to take some steps toward straightening my shit out...
Dude the anxiolytic effects of Ambien was a main reason why I got hooked. I would feel such anxiety about getting up in time for work but then I would pop an Ambien, watch some Space Ghost and feel GREAT. So, so evil.
Even with the best diet and exercise and reduced caffeine (I usually try to not drink caffeine after noon) DSPS seems to keep on fucking with the circadian rythem. I know exactly what you mean about being so sleep deprived but if you don't fall asleep in those early morning hours, you won't crash out. I've been up for DAYS because of that, seeing shadow people, feeling like my life was a David Lynch film, etc. It BLOWS. I seriously feel such relief seeing the sun rise or hearing birds chirp in the morning because it signifies sleep for me.
I'm interested to hear if the melatonin and sleep diary alleviates your insomnia. I just take so much melatonin because I think that's the only way when I'm aggravated over lack of sleep, but moar is not always better. I think I might try the lower doses like you're doing.
Maybe the comorbidity with ADHD and OCD is linked to dopamine? Either too much or too little? I know some of my worst sleepless nights I toss and turn and get super OCD symptoms or think about five million things at once. I take a precursor to dopamine/serotonin (L-Tyrosine) and I notice if I take too much or don't take a break from it, I get worse symptoms.
Will have to research modafinil, I haven't even heard of it! This excites me. DPH is awful and I really need to stop taking it. I justify it because I have really bad seasonal allergies on top of insomnia, but it's still bad no matter how you look at it.
I hope your sleep schedule stops being a dick soon. If I had any advice that didn't involve hypnotics to give about DSPS I totally would, but we're in the same boat here.
 
Maybe the comorbidity with ADHD and OCD is linked to dopamine? Either too much or too little? I know some of my worst sleepless nights I toss and turn and get super OCD symptoms or think about five million things at once. I take a precursor to dopamine/serotonin (L-Tyrosine) and I notice if I take too much or don't take a break from it, I get worse symptoms.
I feel like it is. I seem to remember OCD being linked to too little dopamine, and definitely being linked to serotonin reuptake not working as it should.

(eta: neuropsych sperg TO THE RESCUE)
 
I'm no insomniac, but I absolutely suck at sleeping. I either sleep for a couple of hours incredibly lightly, or I'm comatose for half a day. Either way it sucks. I hate sleeping. I don't feel any less tired when I wake up. I feel like my sleep inertia lasts all day long.
 
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The idea is that since the brain normally produces only small amounts of melatonin, you should only take something like 0.1 to 0.5 mg sustained release melatonin 1-2 hours before your desired bedtime. It's supposed to advance the circadian rhythm. I haven't tried sustained release melatonin; I'm just splitting a 3 mg pill.

When I first tried melatonin (1 mg liquid), it seemed to work great, and I had the typical vivid dreams. But when trying to use it as a sedative, it doesn't really change the circadian rhythm, so I'd have to take it every night. It stopped working after a while, even after I moved to 3 mg. The funny thing is that when I stopped taking it, I seemed to sleep better and the vivid dreams temporarily returned.



I've only looked around a little bit, but the only research I've found so far just notes that there's a correlation. There are speculated genetic links, but I haven't found anything concrete.



I don't notice that sort of thing in conjunction with insomnia or other sleep problems; it's just a more or less constant thing. There's a lot of similar stuff in my family (compulsive hoarding, dermatillomania, anxiety problems), so it's not really a surprise.



Modafinil just does a good job at keeping you awake and alert and is often prescribed for narcolepsy. I've tried it a couple times; you can pull an all-nighter with no problems.

My current hypothesis is that my circadian rhythm can be reset to something normal, but the smallest deviation (napping, oversleeping, insomnia) will likely ruin it, with very little chance of recovery. Consistently taking something every day that either knocks me out or keeps me awake should make that easier to maintain, and a combination of modafinil and melatonin should have fewer problems with dependency or side effects compared to harder stimulants and sedatives. Modafinil can also be used to treat ADHD, so it might help with my other symptoms as well.



There are better antihistamines out there anyway.



I doubt it will, but I'm relatively free to experiment for now.

Dude I might actually look into Modafinil, although it probably won't be for me knowing my luck/brain chemistry. I can't take a lot of caffeine to wake up because 1) I'm extremely sensitive and it can impact my sleep even in the morning and 2) exacerbates my anxiety. So keeping that in mind, pretty much all stimulants go out the window for me, I remember I tried taking Ritalin when I was a freshman in college to cram for finals and I was convinced that if I left my dorm I would slip on the ice and die or drown in my Starbucks drink (ok that one not as much but this post needed comic relief) or meet some other ridiculous end. It was seriously dumb. I've struck a balance with my anxiety after all these years by either taking L-Theanine to take the edge off caffeine (I drink green tea mainly though so it's already in there) or keeping some valarian root on standby, but I'm still afraid to take anything to help me stay awake. I can admit that I like feeling sleepy and out of it more than I like feeling alert and possibly anxious.
My family has a history of OCD/anxiety as well and both members with those traits (not including me) struggle with insomnia so that makes me think that they're linked just based off anecdotal evidence.

And in relation to the antihistamines, pretty much the same thing applies- if it's stimulant based, it's a no no. Extremely lame. I took sudaphed once and I was up all night thinking about random bullshit and being agitated. Bah!
 
I wouldn't necessarily get too optimistic about it; the effect is primarily increased alertness, but there are still some stimulant-like qualities. It's relatively mild on its own, but I felt wired for hours after drinking coffee. It also has a long half life (15 hours). Other variants are adrafinil and armodafinil; maybe there's a good balance to find somewhere in there. These are all available in the US, but aren't approved in a lot of other countries.



I probably should try at least theanine. I tried kava and it didn't seem to do a lot, but it was tea and I don't think there was enough extract in it.



I'm the opposite. Sedation feels nice, but I want to be in a state where I can, for example, read difficult technical material for hours. Any kind of sedative tends to ruin that. I prefer a mild stimulant feeling, but I seem to be quite sensitive, so the threshold is pretty low. I tried Adderall a few times, and I think my preferred dose is 5 mg. That's the starter dose for six year olds. I have a friend who takes 60 mg daily to treat severe narcolepsy. Anyway it isn't that great for keeping me awake, and it tends to crap out after about 9 or 10 hours.
I would recommend giving theanine a try. It really takes the edge off and it produces a fair amount of GABA. I used to have a script to klonopin back in the day so I have a high tolerance to GABA producing supplements and it still helps me out greatly. I've tried Kava Kava too and it never did that much for me. It's nice if I'm in bed reading a book or something but not enough to quash anxiety.
I wish I could feel comfortable with stimulants, I would get a shit ton more done. I was never diagnosed with ADD but my mind wanders all the time, and it would probably be beneficial to have a stimulant in my life but, it's just too much for me to handle. Maybe I should try six year old levels of adderall or something, then :happy:
 
TRIGGER WARNING: TL;DR WALL OF TEXT WITH POWERLEVELING

It's still a little tentative at the moment, but I think I've made a big step toward solving my problems.

To recap some of the stuff I said previously, I seem to have delayed sleep phase disorder, and also a lot of symptoms resembling ADHD, OCD, generalized anxiety disorder and overall quite poor executive function. DSPD is often comorbid with ADHD and OCD. While I don't have panic attacks or wash my hands all day, it's basically a cluster of things that frequently make it exceedingly difficult and unpleasant to do anything useful.

None of this has been diagnosed, but I've been working on doing something about it. As I frequently tend to do, I was autistically over-preparing to make an appointment with a psychiatrist, where I expected to get prescriptions for modafinil and some sort of antidepressant. I ended up binge-reading a bunch of stuff and taking copious notes, because somehow that's easier for me than looking someone up and making a phone call (go ahead and start a halal thread for me).

I'd been taking 300 mcg melatonin two hours or so before my desired bedtime and trying bright light in the mornings, as is frequently recommended for DSPD, but it didn't seem to be doing anything. I'd typically wake up between 10 AM and 2 PM, my sleep schedule was erratic and sometimes totally chaotic, and I had problems with excessive daytime sleepiness and frequent headaches.

I started reading about N-acetylcysteine (NAC) and how it's shown promise in treating a wide variety of disorders involving compulsive and impulsive behaviors (i.e. exactly the kinds of things I'm experiencing). NAC acts as a glutamate modulator and antioxidant; there's some evidence that people with OCD and related disorders have both glutamate abnormalities (correlated with increased impulsivity) and increased oxidative stress. The mechanism of action is (apparently) totally different from antidepressants. It seemed interesting and low risk, so I thought I'd try some. NAC is most often used as an antioxidant and mucolytic; it doesn't seem to have psychoactive effects in normal people.

I started taking the NAC and immediately felt a lot better and more focused, with fewer intrusive thoughts, impulsive behaviors, and much less overall discomfort. The degree of improvement in focus was comparable to Adderall, but without the stimulant effects. What was totally unexpected is that I also started spontaneously going to sleep earlier. Within 4 days I was waking up at 8 AM, and I didn't even mean to. I have never, with any amount of effort, been able to advance my circadian rhythm like that. The melatonin now seems to be working as it should. I haven't seen anything at all about NAC affecting sleep (even after looking for it), so I was really surprised.

Things still aren't 100% under control, and I'm still having intermittent "relapses" of symptoms, so I think I'll have to play with the dosage and when and how I'm taking it. I'd been taking 1800 mg/day (for psychiatric use the dosage is usually around 1000-3000 mg/day), but I haven't found any good information on pharmacokinetics, etc. Everything went back to "normal" when I ran out.

One interesting thing to note is that I've always had very strong hypnagogic hallucinations and tend to dream immediately upon falling asleep, even if it's only for a second or two. This is common among narcoleptics, although I don't think I qualify for diagnosis. I also can't sit still without falling asleep, no matter how well rested I am. I've recently been using a seiza bench to meditate; typically the hypnagogic hallucinations start after 3-5 minutes, and I'll start nodding disruptively after about 10-12 minutes. This hasn't changed since starting the NAC. So something's likely still amiss, but it may not need treatment.

I'm ordinarily really suspicious of supplements, etc. Nootropics communities and other places where these sorts of things tend to be discussed and recommended are very often full of shit, and personal anecdotes from people who self-diagnose and self-medicate (myself included) are worth nothing. So I don't suggest you take my word for it, but at least for me it seems to have made a remarkable difference. It's a given that I'm a special snowflake neurological outlier (for more reasons than what I've described here), so I wouldn't necessarily expect NAC to perform miracles for anyone else, but it might be worth trying in at least some cases. I also want to try choline and inositol, as they seem similarly promising.

I'm so glad you found something dude! If you want to continue with updates, that would actually be really awesome. I appreciate you sharing this stuff even though it's powerlevel and whatnot, but it seems like we have very similar brain chemistry (my own powerlevel will be reveled below) and it's comforting to see anecdotes regarding nootropics from someone similar rather than some person who might have a completely different chemical makeup than myself.

I also struggle with "pure o" (you might have come across that term with researching- it's OCD without compulsions, just intrusive thoughts) and I've had really negative experiences with OCD medications, so I'm going to look into NAC.

So far nootropics have worked wonders for me, as I'm someone with depression and anxiety and I've been on a whole slew of medications over the years, the past two have been "unmedicated" and only using nootropics. I've never been happier or more stable, my insomnia is still a bitch but I can work with that. What I struggled with before was feeling like something bad was always going to happen, even to the point where I would kick people out of the driver's seat and take over GTA style if I didn't like their driving. It was seriously obnoxious. Sometimes I still have similar feels however and would love to quash intrusive thoughts once and for all.

I'm currently taking l-tyrosine (converts to dopamine, then to serotonin) for depression but sometimes too much of it can make me OCD. As far as anxiety goes, I'm a regular green tea drinker which has l-theanine naturally in it, so that helps with daily regulation, but I usually have capsules of l-theanine just in case. I'll have to look if NAC interacts with either, but from what you wrote, I don't think it will.

Oh, I actually ordered some modnifl. It was really hit or miss with me, so I'm not sure how I feel about it at its price. My insomnia has been a bitch the last few nights, I started taking DPH again after quitting about a month ago, started taking daily naps again, other bullshit. If NAC can help with this, I'll be fucking set.

Again, seriously, thanks for posting this. I'm not a member of any nootropic forums so I can never log in and ask HEY RANDOM POSTER WHO USES THIS PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE TO SEE IF WE'RE SIMILAR. THAAAAANKS. so this is really awesome.
 
I have so many sleep problems :(. I have a sleep cycle that isn't regular... currently I'm sleeping during the day, and I'm awake from early afternoon till the sun is up. It will probably flip around again in a few weeks. Usually I sleep okay... it takes me forever to actually fall asleep, but once I'm out I'm gone. On days falling asleep is too hard, I take ambien and it knocks me out, but I don't take it regularly.

The problems arise when I have an 'episode'. I have a Tumblr worthy list of psychological issues, but my doctor and I aren't sure what triggers these exactly. The last time it happened, about two months ago, I was awake for 10 days straight. Took ambien (quite a few times) and it did nothing. I ended up having to go to the ER after I passed out. Usually it's not that extreme... I'll be awake for two or three days before I go out, and I can tolerate that okay after like, 20 years of dealing with it. My doctor wants to do some testing, but I've kind of been dragging my feet on it. See him on the 1st, and I'm kind of hoping we can try something other than ambien.
 
I have so many sleep problems :(. I have a sleep cycle that isn't regular... currently I'm sleeping during the day, and I'm awake from early afternoon till the sun is up. It will probably flip around again in a few weeks. Usually I sleep okay... it takes me forever to actually fall asleep, but once I'm out I'm gone. On days falling asleep is too hard, I take ambien and it knocks me out, but I don't take it regularly.

The problems arise when I have an 'episode'. I have a Tumblr worthy list of psychological issues, but my doctor and I aren't sure what triggers these exactly. The last time it happened, about two months ago, I was awake for 10 days straight. Took ambien (quite a few times) and it did nothing. I ended up having to go to the ER after I passed out. Usually it's not that extreme... I'll be awake for two or three days before I go out, and I can tolerate that okay after like, 20 years of dealing with it. My doctor wants to do some testing, but I've kind of been dragging my feet on it. See him on the 1st, and I'm kind of hoping we can try something other than ambien.
I hope your appointment goes well dude. That is some tough shit. Ambien is a bitch and I hope you find something else to combat that. Stay strong fellow kiwi!
 
The NAC seems to be consistently working pretty well for me. Symptoms are roughly 70% controlled on 1800 mg/day, and 85% on 2400 mg. The remaining distractions, intrusive thoughts and obsessive worries have been relatively easy to deal with. My circadian rhythm continues to be pretty stable, though again I have no idea why the NAC would affect that. I find that it's much easier to get up when I want to; I don't tend to just turn the alarm off and go back to sleep. I still get sleepy sometimes during the day, but not like I used to.



I'd assumed that I would end up getting an SSRI or something, and I wasn't really looking forward to it. None of them seem particularly fun. NAC and inositol have shown efficacy similar to antidepressants, but with fewer side effects and little (known) risk of adverse interactions. So that seems really encouraging, but finding out about this stuff also means sifting through massive amounts of low quality information. Research is promising but tentative. Anecdotal reports and half-baked theorizing from people who tend to be hypochondriacs or have eccentric ideas about "toxins" or life extension or whatever aren't really that useful.



I'm currently taking L-theanine and it's been fine. But I have to say that I haven't noticed any subjective benefit from either L-theanine or green tea. It seems like it should be doing something, but it isn't really obvious.



I've heard the effectiveness of modafinil partly depends on genetics. It seemed to work well for me, though I only tried it a few times and don't know if it would be good to take long term.



Sorry to hear that. NAC might be kind of a long shot; the fact that it seems to help me could well be a total fluke.I guess there's little risk in trying, anyway. If it's not useful for your sleep, it may still help in other areas.
double post, editing is hard
Can you provide a link for NAC? Or where you got it from if it was in person? Ironically after my last post, I started going through a depressive episode. Environmental factors triggered it, but I can't seem to get out of it. I'm already trying to get in to see a doctor to get an SSRI because it's beginning to be worrisome. I can't sleep at night even with DPH and some nights I'll polish off a bottle of wine to fall asleep. Not something I would like to continue.
I'm willing to give anything a shot at this moment before it gets worse. I live in a different state than where my roots have grown, so I have no primary care or shrink to call, and my insurance is based in another state so half the shit out here isn't even covered. I'm in quite a :pickle:
 
So, fun updates since I (shockingly!) can't sleep and all my normal friends are asleep at 2 AM.

I had a sleep apnea test done. I had sort of been hoping I had it, because at least that's something that can be treated. Came back that I didn't have it however, so that kind of sucked.

My doctor took me off ambien. In large part because he wasn't comfortable upping my dose past a certain level, and I confessed that I had been taking more than was prescribed some days. I'm already on two other benzos, so I have a pretty high tolerance for that stuff anyway. He put me on doxepin,which actually helped me sleep more deeply and for a normalish length of time. I typically only sleep three or four hours a day, so getting seven or eight is a massive improvement. However, the doxepin does nothing to actually get me to sleep. So, he put me on hydroxyz. I've only been taking that one a week, but it seems to be doing jack shit. I'm taking double the dose I'm supposed to, and it does absolutely nothing. Google is pretty much telling me it's a stronger version of benadryl, which does nothing to me, so I don't really know why he thought it would help me. I honestly think he's running out of medications to put me on at this point. I've had sleep problems since I was like five, but they were always night terrors. It's only in like the last five years this no sleep stuff started. And he's been working with me pretty much the whole time.

I've been awake three days at this point, and I only slept one night last week. I have an appointment with him in November, but I think I'm going to give it another week or two and call to see if he can put me on something else without needing an office visit, since he's always so heavily booked I probably won't be able to get in any sooner.

So, some progress has been made I guess. My weed dealer just moved back into town though, so I may be turning to less than legal methods soon. I always slept pretty well during my stoner years.
 
I sleep in the day and do stuff at night because my sleep schedule is majorly fucked because I get really, really scared at night for no rational reason. I'm scared of things popping up and going ooga booga or ghosts. Neither of these things have ever happened to me and I know that nothing is going to pop up and go oogly boogly but that doesn't stop me from being scared.
I don't take any kind of sleeping aids, my doctor doesn't want me on anything like that. He told me to drink chamomile tea before bed but instead of sipping it like a normal human I chug it and it doesn't have the same soothing effect
 
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I have such bad insomnia that I have to take a prescription pill to sleep. My doctor didn't originally want me on one, but eventually he had to prescribe me one because of the toll the lack of sleep was doing to my body.
 
I have trouble going to sleep at night, then again I also be drinking coffee at midnight and I don't try to sleep until like 2:30 am generally. Still, I find that I don't feel too bad in the morning as long as I don't worry too much about it and just try my best to be awake.
 
I've been a raging insomniac my entire life. Then about five years ago the non-stop jerking awake just as I was falling asleep started (because I'm lucky that way). Took Lunesta for a few years until it stopped working. Now I'm on Trazadone and Klonopin (which also helps the restless leg syndrome) and that's been helping.
 
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