Kiwi Bible Studies - Teach an atheist about religion

  • 🏰 The Fediverse is up. If you know, you know.
  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
Judge Dredd

Judge Dredd

Senior Layout Artist
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Joined
Aug 23, 2018
I'm an athiest. This year I've found religious peoples takes on religion interesting. What teachings helped you or inform your world view, religious or not, good or bad.


Without power levelling too much. I grew up in the UK in the 90s, I remember a bunch of arguments and picking sides between Catholics and Protestants. They hate each other, but none could give a reason why (simply saying "CoE" doesn't clear it up). I've also seen people changed by religion, such no longer talking to family after finding god.

I remember seeing conservative, family values pundits and politicians complaining about everything fun and trying to get it banned, or transforming it into something lame and boring. Usually with said pundit or politician getting outed as doing drugs in a gay bar or something. America had something similar but more well known, with the satanic panic and Jack Thompson.
Getting older.webp
Over time that stuff faded in favour of internet slap fights that I payed no attention to because I wasn't religious. The era of Thunderfoot, Amazing Atheist, and Jordan Owens.

With the "woke" movement collapsing, I noticed a slow return of the 90s style religious puritanism. The first big example being goonergate. A flash in the pan bit of internet drama where formally pro-free speech YouTubers suddenly had a massive problem with T&A.
What surprised me at the time was how, instead of circling the wagons and playing victim, many Christians called them out over this.

I say all of this because this kind of thing happened multiple times over the year. From a podcast where two Catholics with a tourists understanding of Warhammer 40,000 tried to crowbar their religion into it, to the financial audit Christian rappers, and even lolcows saying stupid things. Certain people are called out, others are above criticism. But at least there is some criticism, which is a big improvement.


I'm finding the recent takes interesting is a secular level, like concepts of humility and how to live life well. Seeing people smacking down tourists with more complete knowledge is it's own kind of entertainment. It's far from the bible thumping "This is the infallible word of god and must be followed to the letter! Except the parts I don't like. Those are outdated." type nonsense that was, and sometimes still is, typical, or the usual school lessons of "turn the other cheek", "do unto others", and "build a big boat" or whatever the story of Noah was about.
 
Judge Dredd said:
I'm finding the recent takes interesting is a secular level, like concepts of humility and how to live life well. Seeing people smacking down tourists with more complete knowledge is it's own kind of entertainment. It's far from the bible thumping "This is the infallible word of god and must be followed to the letter! Except the parts I don't like. Those are outdated." type nonsense that was, and sometimes still is, typical, or the usual school lessons of "turn the other cheek", "do unto others", and "build a big boat" or whatever the story of Noah was about.
Click to expand...
Okay, genuinely, what would you like to know or discuss? Genuinely, if you want to have a conversation I would love to try and answer some questions. For clarity and disclosure, I belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, but am an American. I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.
 
1766622756849.png

"Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, 'Come!' So I looked and saw a white horse, and its rider held a bow. And he was given a crown, and he rode out to overcome and conquer."

"And when the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, 'Come!' Then another horse went forth. It was bright red, and its rider was granted permission to take peace from the earth, and to make men slay one another. And he was given a great sword."

"And when the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, 'Come!' Then I looked and saw a black horse, and its rider held in his hand a pair of scales. And I heard a voice from among the four living creatures saying, 'A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine.'"

"And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, 'Come!' Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth."
 
A Cardboard Box said:
Okay, genuinely, what would you like to know or discuss? Genuinely, if you want to have a conversation I would love to try and answer some questions. For clarity and disclosure, I belong to the Greek Orthodox Church, but am an American. I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.
Click to expand...
Paintrick S Canlinson said:
Like @A Cardboard Box said, I would also be willing to answer some questions and have a nice conversation. I am a Southern Baptist and will do my best to answer your questions
Click to expand...
Anything really. What parts do you find interesting? What advice has had an impact on your life (or people you know)? What are some good lessons outside the broadest of broad strokes that they teach in school? What are some parts people often get wrong, overlook, or deliberately misinterprate? It can even be bad things, things that are outdated, stupid, or open to debate.

Some of my more specific questions are shallow.
 
I was an atheist when I was younger. Honestly, if you want the shortest version of why I'm not anymore, it's because I looked around at the world and saw that everything I disdained, everything I disliked, everything that brought me woe and concern, was all addressed in a book written thousands of years ago. Sure, there's some level of interpretation that allows something to apply to modern events even if it isn't directly talking about them, but there's so much wrong with the modern world that is literally talked about in the bible that it would be arrogant not to give it a second look.

Timothy 3:1–5
But understand this: that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
Click to expand...

The bible is full of things like this.

For me, it's a matter of specificity + volume. It's dozens of passages across different authors and centuries converging on the same human pathologies we see exploding in real time: narcissism, greed, moral inversion ("calling evil good," Isaiah 5:20), breakdown of families, widespread deceit, love growing cold (Matthew 24:12), Repeated descriptions of societies drowning in sexual license, etc


I had my struggles with it, when I first started to come around to this I had plenty of conversations with Pastors and Preachers and etc. about how it all seems so convenient for there to be a god, how it's obviously a very comforting thing that people don't have to fear death, and that I worry about believing something not because I think it's true but because I want it to be. All I can say to this point is that the proof is in the pudding, I can not explain how much better my life became once I started to engage with Christianity, in ways that honestly aren't explained by simply having a more positive attitude. It's a very personal thing, and no one can really explain it to you until you try to walk the path yourself.

God bless.
 
Judge Dredd said:
Anything really. What parts do you find interesting? What advice has had an impact on your life (or people you know)? What are some good lessons outside the broadest of broad strokes that they teach in school? What are some parts people often get wrong, overlook, or deliberately misinterprate? It can even be bad things, things that are outdated, stupid, or open to debate.

Some of my more specific questions are shallow.
Click to expand...
It's refreshing to see someone who's genuinely curious without an agenda or ulterior motives. Since your questions are broad, I'll try to hit on a few angles based on what draws me personally to Christianity, especially through my lens as Greek Orthodox. I'll be painfully honest, including some of the messier parts, and reference specific Bible passages where they fit. Feel free to ask follow up questions about anything I talk about if you have any, again, I would love to share as much as you're willing to learn.
Judge Dredd said:
What parts do you find interesting?
Click to expand...
To answer this I'll focus on the more doctrinal or ritualistic portions of the physical Church and the liturgy.

One of the things that I find most interesting is the mystical side of Orthodox Christianity, basically the idea that God is ultimately unknowable, and our faith isn't about pinning Him down with logic or rules, but about experiencing Him through rituals, prayer, and community. This comes from early Church fathers like Gregory of Nyssa, who emphasized "apophatic theology" (describing God by what He isn't). It's not anti-intellectual but instead about humility, and directing thought and effort to things that matter and away from things that don't. For example, in the Bible, Exodus 33:20-23 describes Moses seeing only God's "back" because no one can see His face and live. I see that as a poetic way of saying God's essence is beyond us, so instead we should focus on His other aspects that we can see and interact with, like love and grace, in our daily lives.

I also love the emphasis on "theosis," or becoming more like God through His grace. It's not about earning salvation or literally becoming something similar to God. To explain it in better terms, it's about using the ritual acts as a means to focus us on God and try and be closer to Him. 2 Peter 1:4 talks about becoming "partakers of the divine nature," which in Orthodoxy means growing in holiness through things like the Eucharist (communion). The liturgy in an Orthodox church feels ancient and intense, with the incense, chants, icons, etc. I find it incredibly powerful because it is rituals and aspects which have been nearly unchanged for over a thousand years. It helps form a real sense of connection with the ancient early Christians.
Judge Dredd said:
What advice has had an impact on your life (or people you know)?
Click to expand...
A big one for me is the call to radical forgiveness. In Matthew 18:21-22, Jesus tells Peter to forgive not seven times, but "seventy times seven" (some translations say "seventy-seven times"). It's not about keeping score, instead it's unlimited. This has shaped how I handle conflicts. Now, a lot of the "feel good" Christians interpret this incorrectly, and a lot of attacks on Christianity center on this as some "gotcha" where they interpret this as a command for Christians to roll over and accept abuse, which is wrong. Forgiveness of others is very often something for you. Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you have to let the back into your life. You can "love someone from afar." You can forgive them, love them as a child of God, and never invite them into your life because you acknowledge it would be disastrous. It is about limiting negative, detrimental emotions and allowing yourself to move forward with positivity. Forgiving someone means you no longer have to carry hate, guilt, anger, or other things which can very easily become a drag on your everyday life. For instance, how many times have you seen someone, say after a bitter divorce or breakup, who hold onto and become consumed with hatred, where it becomes nearly a key personality trait for them, while their ex has moved on and lives a healthy life?

Another is the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, especially the Beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-12), blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, the peacemakers, etc. It flips worldly success on its head: true strength is in humility and mercy. Glory to those that help others and make caring for their fellow man and making the world around them better. This has impacted how I approach work and stress. Instead of chasing status, I try to focus on being present for others.

The Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) is huge too. It's not just "be nice." Instead, the story is about crossing boundaries to help anyone in need, even enemies, or people outside the faith, or people rejected or shunned by society at large. In Orthodoxy, we extend this to everyone, regardless of faith. Our services often pray for "all mankind," and our philanthropy is never limited to members of the Church or even Christians in general. This has pushed me to volunteer more, and it's rewarding in a deep, non-transactional way. It's similar to how we are commanded to give in way where one hand doesn't know the other has given.
Judge Dredd said:
What are some good lessons outside the broadest of broad strokes that they teach in school?
Click to expand...
Beyond "love thy neighbor," there's a strong teaching on the value of suffering and endurance. James 1:2-4 says to "count it all joy" when facing trials because they produce perseverance and maturity. In Orthodoxy, we see suffering not as punishment but as a path to empathy and closeness with Christ, who suffered on the cross. It's overlooked in feel good Christianity, but it's helped me through tough times, like health issues, by framing them as opportunities for growth rather than random cruelty. I want to be clear that we don't have some masochistic streak where we are "thankful" for suffering, but it is more like secular teachers that emphasize lessons like "life isn't about what happens to you, but how you respond." We can use suffering and tribulation as good. We can use lessons learned in hardship to help others when we emerge from that hardship. A good example, who do you think the Church sends to mentor or help someone who has lost a child? Exactly, someone who has also lost a child. That suffering, that pain, if embraced not as cruelty, breeds strength, empathy, which can then be used to help others through the toughest parts of their life.
Judge Dredd said:
What are some parts people often get wrong, overlook, or deliberately misinterprate?
Click to expand...
A common misinterpretation is taking the Bible ultra-literally, like insisting on a 6,000 year old Earth from Genesis. Orthodoxy sees Genesis as theological poetry, not a science textbook. It's about God's creation and our role in it, not timelines. This gets twisted in debates to pit faith against science, which alienates people unnecessarily.

Hell is another big one. People often picture it as a fiery torture chamber run by a vengeful God, but in Orthodox thought (drawing from parables like the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31), it's more about self-imposed separation from God's love. God's presence is like fire: warming to the loving, burning to the hateful. We believe that God, being an omnibenevolent God, does not want to send us to hell. Why would he? We believe that is one of the most painful things he can do, and loathes it, so we believe that the only way to Hell is through intentional rejection of His grace. It is not a literal fire pit.

The "prosperity gospel," the idea that faith guarantees wealth or health, is a deliberate misinterpretation of verses like John 10:10 ("I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full"). It's popular in some circles but ignores Jesus' warnings about riches (Matthew 19:24, camel through the eye of a needle). Orthodoxy stresses inner richness over material.
Judge Dredd said:
bad things, things that are outdated, stupid, or open to debate.
Click to expand...
Christianity isn't perfect in its human application. The Bible has passages that seem outdated, like those condoning slavery (e.g., Ephesians 6:5-8, advising slaves to obey masters). In context, it was addressing a Roman world where slavery was endemic, urging humane treatment rather than endorsing it. Historically, some Christians used it to justify slavery, like the transatlantic slave trade. Orthodoxy condemns that now, seeing it as a perversion.

Women's submission in marriage (Ephesians 5:22-33) gets debated a lot. Some see it as patriarchal nonsense. The passage actually calls for mutual submission (verse 21), with husbands loving wives "as Christ loved the church," which is to say, totally, willing to sacrifice and work diligently to fulfill needs, physical, spiritual, etc. Still, it's been misused to enable abuse, and modern interpretations emphasize equality.

Some rituals might seem outdated, like strict fasting rules, but they're voluntary tools for discipline, not mandates. Honestly, church politics can be dumb. Schisms over calendars or beards, stuff like that, but that's human folly, not the faith itself. Any group with billions of people is bound to have different ideas on how it should be run.

Well, I hope that sheds just a little bit of light. Obviously it's impossible for me to cover everything, or even most things, but hopefully that gives you a good starting point. Again, if you have any questions at all, please do not hesitate.
 
I saw the world get more evil and more callous the more society drifts from Christ. At a certain point I decided that I don't care if I don't deserve Heaven, the battle lines are drawn and I don't want to stand on the side of Satan. There is nothing but ruin there. Faggots, trannies, abortion, communism, the reality of Godless societies are bleak.

So then I started to read the bible more. Nobody deserves Heaven. It is the Grace of God that allows us in and then I understood. The "shame" and structure of Christianity is not meant to punish you. It is to break down your ego, break your pride, open your eyes to your true nature. And if you hate who you are and see everything wrong with yourself, you truly see how spiritually naked you are. Then the healing and growth can begin. You start to learn the rules exist to protect your mind and body from harm. You start to learn the rules exist to form discipline, and that everyone on Earth has to make sacrifices to serve God and not themselves or Satan. At some point the rules are no longer restrictions but warnings.

The more I read the bible, the more I realize that desert people 2,000 years ago had a better understanding of human nature than we do today. And somehow that book written 2,000 years ago is more relevant than ever. The teachings of Christ are more effective than ever at successfully navigating the modern world.

The bible clearly states that some people will read and not believe. Salvation is for those that seek it out, and Satan will provide you every excuse you will ever need to not seek Him. It is each of our responsibilities to go searching for Him. If you do it earnestly, you WILL find him.
 
I've been a Christian all my life, though I've had a few years where I attended church while quietly doubting whether any of it was real. I went to Christian school & secular college. AMA.

Judge Dredd said:
What are some parts people often get wrong, overlook, or deliberately misinterprate?
Click to expand...

The biggest thing most unchurched people get wrong is they don't understand what it means to believe God is real. They think God is just you taking all your wishes and preferences and telling a nice story about a man in the sky who reflects them. So if you believe God is going to send homosexuals to Hell, it's because you're a nasty person who enjoys the thought of homosexuals suffering. (I am, in fact, a nasty person who enjoys the thought of homosexuals suffering, but this only happened after years of having to endure Pride Month at work.)

Put simply, if God is real, then like anything else that is real, what he is has nothing at all to do with what I'd like him to be. I believe God is a certain sort of Being, not because I wish him to be that sort of Being, but because that is what I am convinced he actually is.

The second thing unchurched people tend to get wrong is that Christianity is not, first and foremost, a set of virtues. It's the belief that the Eternal Father sent the Eternal Son into the world to redeem us and grant us a way to be with him for eternity. We get in really vicious fights over the specifics of that way.

Judge Dredd said:
What parts do you find interesting?
Click to expand...

What I find interesting is how Bronze Age meditations on society, sex, family, morality, the nature of man, greed, and envy continue to be relevant in the Internet Age. Nothing is new under the sun. Ecclesiastes might well be the most timeless piece of literature ever written--even if you remain entirely an atheist, you are grievously shortchanging yourself by having never read it.
 
Update.

First a disclaimer. I listened to an audio book version, and it's the "new international version". I get that people swear by the King James version, but "niv" is the only version I found that was free, pleasant to listen to, and is just the whole bible with no editing or commentary.

TL:DR. I started with Kings 2 and didn't get much from it. I assume I lack context or I'm too retarded to see it. It seems to be more about false religion than censorship.


I started with Kings 2 (sometimes 2 Kings). The reason being it's the recent crop of anti-fun bible thumpers cite to complain about video games and anime. This is the shallow reason I mentioned above.

Quick power level (feel free to skip). In the 90s it was often "the bible says so" which was broad and non-specific. In the 00s it was "this specific bible verse says so", but that quickly fell apart when people would throw bible verses back at them that they disagree with. This is where memes about "no man shall lay with another man" was countered by pointing out they wear cotton blend underpants. The latest crop just give a chapter. "Read Kings 2!". So I started there.


The part at the beginning where some kids shouting the equivariant of "baldy!" and get eaten by bears was funny, but the rest of it followed the same pattern. King does evil in the eyes of the lord and things go badly. Occasionally someone will rule as the lord intended and good things happen in the long run. While I was not expecting "thou shalt not play PS5 games with hot Korean babes!", I expected something more than what was there. It could be I'm missing something.

I'm guessing the bible thumpers think that anime and T&A in video games is ruling against the wishes of the lord. But in the stories it's false idols, incense, human sacrifice, and "high places" (which I assume are temples where such things take place). Maybe this was elaborated on prior but in isolation, it doesn't match.

To me, this seems more in line with what's going on in US politics. Where blue cities like rioters run amok, while red cities that cracked down on that shit immediately are doing well. It's a tenuous link, but it's much closer than the "kings 2 says ban sexy vidya" type arguments.


Is there any chapter I should jump to next, or should I go cover-to-cover in order?
 
How the hell were you around Catholics and Protestant and neither one of them could explain the differences between their beliefs or why they disagreed with each other? Like were you talking to literal retards or children on reddit?

I think OP is a fedora nigger and an attention whore.
 
Judge Dredd said:
What teachings helped you or inform your world view, religious or not, good or bad.
Click to expand...
One of the most important things for me as a Christian (I attend an Arminian Protestant church for context) is that all of life's issues need to be filtered through what the Bible teaches (I am a KJV guy, but not Baptist/Calvinist). Many people due to the "based and trad culture warrior" nonsense who claim to be Christian view religion through a lens of secular politics when it should be the inverse. Many of these people give themselves away in their sinful behavior and profane speech - they honor Christ with their lips, but their hearts are clearly far from Him.

One other thing was learning that "once saved always saved", aka eternal security, is a false teaching. The Bible does teach a Christian can backslide or leave their faith, die in sin, and wind up in Hell after losing their salvation. And while Baptists were primary culprits of this being pushed on people, it's sadly gotten into many other churches. While a remnant is always raised up somewhere, understand that there are spiritual principalities and powers in the world who work constantly to try and take as many people with them to the Lake of Fire as possible. This being said, Satan will use any tactic he can think of to accomplish this goal, given he knows his time is short.

Churches being subverted is a tactic he uses, and I find that - as a different example - pozzed political tripe is less common in churches with less centralized leadership, which makes them harder to infiltrate. Sadly, it hasn't been hellfire and brimstone in most places for decades; with the pulpit full of wolves leading a double life, what chance does the flock have? The Bible actually does warn about "false bretheren" along with its warning about ravening wolves in sheep's clothing.

wolf in sheep's clothing.png
Judge Dredd said:
I've also seen people changed by religion, such no longer talking to family after finding god.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't cut your family members off - never fully shut the door on them. If someone is a Christian, I'd encourage them to witness to lost relatives in order to get them saved.
Judge Dredd said:
Seeing people smacking down tourists with more complete knowledge is it's own kind of entertainment. It's far from the bible thumping "This is the infallible word of god and must be followed to the letter! Except the parts I don't like. Those are outdated." type nonsense that was, and sometimes still is, typical, or the usual school lessons of "turn the other cheek", "do unto others", and "build a big boat" or whatever the story of Noah was about.
Click to expand...
Yellow highlight = Jesus Himself calls these people out, the people who do this are hypocrites. Because it's one thing to be at church or at work and living right, but what about when you're on your own?
Green highlight = The Joel Osteen "we're all okay" type of thing is awful, given that type of thing makes people they're going to get to Heaven living in sin.

A Christian truly living a Biblical, holy, and righteous life makes lost people uncomfortable for more reasons than one. Christians are supposed to be in the world, but at the same time a "peculiar people" who are not of the world. First century Christians were like this so much so to the point where they were persecuted and martyred. Meanwhile, 21st century Christians in the first world want to complain about the color carpet in the church (yes, this actually happens more often than people think). Try living in a Communist or Muslim country or a place like India.

People who think they're living right and twist verses about "Judge not" will be in for a rude shock when they die, since they themselves think they're living right. And the thing is, the lion's share of people who get irate about this sort of thing are people claiming to be Christian.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom