Kiwi Farms on Super Heroes

[skykiii]

@LORD IMPERATOR

So earlier today Youtube recommended me this video:

So.... this comic has Superman admitting he doesn't actually have a rule against killing, he just doesn't like doing it. But admitting he might off the Joker if he comes to Metropolis again. Inherent in it is an admission that Batman is basically his own worst enemy.

.... I wish guys like this wrote more comics.

Although it does seem that Batman is the center of DC thought process--depending on the writer, he's either some high paragon everyone aspires to, or he's a dumb autist they tolerate because he happens to have master-level skills the other heroes don't and that's often pretty useful, but they don't mind telling him when he's being too autistic.

While the latter comes off as maybe a writer seething that Batman is so popular, it nevertheless feels more natural to me.

Also very often this includes people pointing out his "code against killing" is retarded.... so apparently even capeshit writers are, on some level, aware of how stupid it is. One gets the feeling many of them actually chafe under the stupidity they're forced to endure.

In fact this is another thing I would like to see more in comics: these are all supposed to be in the same universe, right? So it would make sense for more villains to go outside their regular stomping grounds. I actually was recommended a video where THAT happened in a comic too (one about everyone being afraid of the Flash, even the Joker).

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

@LORD IMPERATOR

So earlier today Youtube recommended me this video:

So.... this comic has Superman admitting he doesn't actually have a rule against killing, he just doesn't like doing it. But admitting he might off the Joker if he comes to Metropolis again. Inherent in it is an admission that Batman is basically his own worst enemy.

.... I wish guys like this wrote more comics.

Some comic writers are self-aware at how bullshit comic morality for characters like Batman is, and they make a point to talk about it. But it's the exception to the rule, because if they did it more, comic fans who like BS morality would get furious.

Although it does seem that Batman is the center of DC thought process--depending on the writer, he's either some high paragon everyone aspires to, or he's a dumb autist they tolerate because he happens to have master-level skills the other heroes don't and that's often pretty useful, but they don't mind telling him when he's being too autistic.

That's because Batman sells the best. He's the one that sells the most comics, games, toys, movies, that's why in SW live-action, you have three seasons of the Mandalorian but one season of a show about the birth of the Rebellion in Andor, because Mandalorian toys sold the best.

Batman is the juggernaut that he is in comics and comic media because the comic fans made him the gold standard. So it affects things in-universe, where he either becomes the most honorable paragon, or a super-skilled autist that everyone tolerates because he's just that good.

While the latter comes off as maybe a writer seething that Batman is so popular, it nevertheless feels more natural to me.

It probably is a writer seething at Batman's popularity.

Also very often this includes people pointing out his "code against killing" is retarded.... so apparently even capeshit writers are, on some level, aware of how stupid it is. One gets the feeling many of them actually chafe under the stupidity they're forced to endure.

Again, it's a rule that is only there because of the CCA and because of dumb capeshit fans who think it's deep and interesting, when really, it's not. Your average comic writer probably thinks it's bullshit too, but they have to roll with it because it's something comic fans will rip them apart for. If your Batman kills, you better follow it up by saying that your Batman is an elseworlds story, or else the fans will rip you apart.

In fact this is another thing I would like to see more in comics: these are all supposed to be in the same universe, right? So it would make sense for more villains to go outside their regular stomping grounds. I actually was recommended a video where THAT happened in a comic too (one about everyone being afraid of the Flash, even the Joker).

Yes, and that would be funny. Imagine Batman vs. Lex Luthor in a battle of wits. Imagine some of Superman's enemies struggling against someone you can't disable with a green rock. Imagine Gotham's Rogues Gallery fucking up because they designed their toys to fight/restrain Batman but Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, the Flash, or Superman showed up instead. That would create plenty of interesting scenarios. Imagine Dr. Strange or Professor X fighting against Dr. Doom instead of the Fantastic Four doing it. The potential is endless.

 

[skykiii]

That would create plenty of interesting scenarios. Imagine Dr. Strange or Professor X fighting against Dr. Doom instead of the Fantastic Four doing it. The potential is endless.

On that note, I do have to give props to Marvel here--in the 1960s they actually took the "connected world" seriously and thus would in fact have teams encounter each other's villains, or even each other's heroes (probably most notable with Spider-Man where he was friends with the Human Torch for a bit).

I seem to recall there was even an issue where Spidey suited up to fight a criminal, only to find that some other hero had shown up and dealt with it in the meantime.

Granted, that created its own issues. Just for example, its hard to believe New York has any crime when its also where literally every hero in the Marvel Universe lives. Granted I can excuse that maybe Wilson Fisk had been doing his business for decades and didn't expect radioactive teenagers, stretchy people, blind acrobats, and Howard the Duck to just show up overnight and now just has to kinda deal with it..... but for the most part you'd think crooks would be like "you know what? its not worth getting pounded into paste by Thor."

Marvel at least got a fighting game designed by Capcom.... the two Marvel vs Capcom games on the Dreamcast are still the high point of the series... DC only got a Mortal Kombat crossover, which the whole thing even when it was announced screamed of both companies trying to compete too little too late.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

On that note, I do have to give props to Marvel here--in the 1960s they actually took the "connected world" seriously and thus would in fact have teams encounter each other's villains, or even each other's heroes (probably most notable with Spider-Man where he was friends with the Human Torch for a bit).

I seem to recall there was even an issue where Spidey suited up to fight a criminal, only to find that some other hero had shown up and dealt with it in the meantime.

That makes more sense than Batman always having to patrol Gotham; realistically, other heroes would've gone to Gotham to give it a shot. Hell, if it were me, Gotham would have a state of emergency and the troops would go down there to restore order, given how chaotic it always seems to be.

Granted, that created its own issues. Just for example, its hard to believe New York has any crime when its also where literally every hero in the Marvel Universe lives. Granted I can excuse that maybe Wilson Fisk had been doing his business for decades and didn't expect radioactive teenagers, stretchy people, blind acrobats, and Howard the Duck to just show up overnight and now just has to kinda deal with it..... but for the most part you'd think crooks would be like "you know what? its not worth getting pounded into paste by Thor."

Yeah, that never made sense to me. I think they just put them all in NYC because of the fame factor of NYC. But in reality, with all the battles that take place in Manhattan, that place would be a ghost town because no one would live there. Either that, or the sheer number of heroes that live there would just discourage any supervillain activity at all.

Marvel at least got a fighting game designed by Capcom.... the two Marvel vs Capcom games on the Dreamcast are still the high point of the series... DC only got a Mortal Kombat crossover, which the whole thing even when it was announced screamed of both companies trying to compete too little too late.

DC has the Injustice games, which are more recent and more well-designed.

 

[Maginot]

A batman that kills is explicitly a rich mentally ill man that maims people that rise above their station. There is something to that.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

A batman that kills is explicitly a rich mentally ill man that maims people that rise above their station. There is something to that.

Nope. That's just a civilian defending himself.

 

[skykiii]

A batman that kills is explicitly a rich mentally ill man that maims people that rise above their station. There is something to that.

Nope. That's just a civilian defending himself.

I think it would be a case by case basis.

Its not quite self defense because Batman explicitly puts on a costume and goes out looking for trouble. I'm not a lawyer but I've been told that this voids any self-defense claims from a legal standpoint (and probably a moral or logical one as well).

That said, I could see Maginot's argument if Batman was, say, killing petty purse-snatchers. Killing someone like the Joker no? Self-defense or not, its morally justified.

Incidentally, the thought occurs to me that part of the reason for the "no kill" rule is that in universe the authorities would never allow it--something that comes up in Batman: Hush where Jim Gordon stops Batman from killing Joker.

Narratively though, this just makes me question a different aspect of capeshit writing--the blind regard for authority. Itself, of course, a holdover from the Comics Code years that just never went away (again though Marvel tried to make strides in this department).

Of course, whenever the heroes say "fuck you guys" and actually go over the heads of law that's almost always presented as a start of darkness too.

 

[skykiii]

DC has the Injustice games, which are more recent and more well-designed.

I got to play those recently when visiting my niece and nephew. One of them even has the Ninja Turtles, which is pretty cool.

When it comes to the Marvel vs Capcom games, I'm an outlier in that I heavily prefer the first one. The second is usually the favorite just for its massive roster, but for me the music and sound design just takes away from it. Just for example, here's what a Hyper Combo Finish sounds like in the first game. I actually could not find a Hyper Combo Finish compilation for MvC2 because I guess they're so boring, but you can hear it at 1:50 in this video... just barely.

Seriously if there's any mod I would like to see, its a sound design overhaul for MvC2. Literally the worst thing about it is the crappy music and sound.

............................

So..... I kinda wanted to revive the "how 80s toons outdid the DCAU" discussion. Lord Imperator has already heard most of my arguments but I wanted them to be compiled in one place:

-The morality thing, of course. Capeshit heroes basically act the way they do because they seem to think their lives must be governed by strict rules. Most 80s cartoon heroes have more natural-feeling morals and behaviors that make them feel more like real people.

-Despite being the era of the reset button (according to pop culture), 1980s cartoons were better at following through with things they set up. He-Man for example has a lot of episodes that are direct sequels to others, and do a good job of remembering what happened previously. Meanwhile the DCAU is often bad about introducing an idea but then discarding it, most notably with the villains--Metallo is set up as having a vendetta against Lex Luthor but then when he reappears he just hates Superman and then never even attacks Lex. Mad Hatter is just a pathetic little man who even kinda acknowledges he's in over his head when Batman stops him, but then later he's all "I would've killed Alice before letting another man have her!"

(and no, I don't buy the "Arkham makes them crazy" excuse.... well, its not that I disbelieve it, its more I find it a lazy crutch that just enables lazy writing. And Metallo never went to Arkham anyway, so...)

-80s toons understood that they were for kids. Sure, at times they pushed the envelope of content (most notably Transformers the Movie) and themes (the episode where He-Man has to decide whether or not its okay to kill one person to save a loved one).... but they also had Orko turning one of Trap Jaw's weapons into a pop gun. They knew when to dial it back a bit.

-One issue I have with the DCAU is... I don't know the proper term for this, I call it the "animated acting".... can feel off at times. Like, everyone's visual reactions can have this weird stiltedness to them. The most notable scene of this is the first episode of Batman Beyond, right at the beginning, when Batman pulls the gun on that guy. Just watch that scene.... its just so weird that guy gets that close and only THEN reacts to the gun, and his reaction comes off as both extremely delayed and also a bit overblown, like the way you'd expect someone faking it to react.

While I've seen eighties toons where the reactions can be odd, its never been to quite this extent. Weirdly the "bad" animation probably helped a lot of things come off as more natural.

Yeah, I know, I put way too much thought into this.

These are the problems that take up my night!
These are the conundrums that disrupt my sleep schedule!
These are DARKWING... wait, where was I going with this?

 

[Rungle]

Super heroes are gay, super powers that are only bound to one person making themselves a sorta demigod are gay.

Theres more pleasure seeing common people, with common lives, with common skills, fighting an antagonist and struggling with it.

 

[Ewan McGregor]

Super heroes have lost overstayed their welcome and have pretty much ruined the culturally milieu of the West