Language Learning / Bilingual / Polyglot Thread

I only know English but I'd like to learn another language. Spanish is what is pushed but I am also told the Spanish you get taught in school is much different than the Spanish that is commonly spoken in the US.

Japanese sounds REALLY complicated, as does German.
Japanese is easy in terms of sentence structure and pronunciation. The difficult parts, from what I recall, were kanji, as well as a few bizarre quirks. For example, while I didn't really get into them, since it was apparently a thing in the third and fourth semester classes, there are different, extremely confusing sets of words/numbers used for counting objects, and they can apparently shift the kana for whatever they're counting. Like, "san" is the number three, but "mitsu" (the only one I know) is a counter word for three small, round-ish objects. An example is "Mitsubishi," which is mitsu + (shifted) hishi, which means "water chestnut," which is what they call what's referred to as a diamond shape in English.
 
Japanese is easy in terms of sentence structure and pronunciation. The difficult parts, from what I recall, were kanji, as well as a few bizarre quirks. For example, while I didn't really get into them, since it was apparently a thing in the third and fourth semester classes, there are different, extremely confusing sets of words/numbers used for counting objects, and they can apparently shift the kana for whatever they're counting
Yup, there's a million different counters out there. Particles can be a bitch, too (especially wa and ga). For me the hardest was always kanji. There's a ton and each character can have dozen of readings depending on how it's used.
 
Japanese is easy in terms of sentence structure and pronunciation. The difficult parts, from what I recall, were kanji, as well as a few bizarre quirks. For example, while I didn't really get into them, since it was apparently a thing in the third and fourth semester classes, there are different, extremely confusing sets of words/numbers used for counting objects, and they can apparently shift the kana for whatever they're counting. Like, "san" is the number three, but "mitsu" (the only one I know) is a counter word for three small, round-ish objects. An example is "Mitsubishi," which is mitsu + (shifted) hishi, which means "water chestnut," which is what they call what's referred to as a diamond shape in English.
Yup, there's a million different counters out there. Particles can be a bitch, too (especially wa and ga). For me the hardest was always kanji. There's a ton and each character can have dozen of readings depending on how it's used.
I'm really tired of seeing this. I'm far from an expert, but I know enough to call this out. First, if you're formally studying and it took more than a week for the class to get to the kana, quit right now. Second, do not bother with formal study unless you're willing to augment it with lots of self-study.

I encourage you to read Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard and look for the parallels. Moonspeak is an easy to learn, difficult to master language. Specifically, its syntactic structure, ease of pronunciation, flexible grammar, and emphasis on context makes it very easy to hit the ground running. The one caveat, and crux of its difficulty is that in basically every the way of thinking is fundamentally difference from all the big western languages. So while it's easy to learn and understand from 0, if you're learning from another language that does not think like the nips do, you're going to be constantly fighting yourself to fit your square peg thinking into that round hole. Imagine relearning maths in base 7 but everything is expressed as colored dots on a grid, no numbers exist; maths haven't changed, nor has its difficulty level, but it sure feels a lot harder.

The biggest myth is that the challenge is nothing but learning thousands of runes, but that's not really true. Learning the kanji isn't difficult per se, it just requires a lot of time and memorization, a trait shared with basically every aspect of the language. This is the difference between time as investment capital a la learning to read physics equations, versus actually understanding the physics those equations describe. To put it another way, with time enough basically everyone can learn the kanji and learn nip, no matter what /djt/ says, but there is a very large subset of the population that will never be able to understand quantum mechanics. Once again this isn't to say that the language isn't difficult, but rather that just about every SEO-optimized listicle and armchair expert that got their knowledge from them has been conflating "difficulty" with "takes a lot of time". Strictly speaking, if I had to choose I'd probably find it easier to learn the runes than relearn all the nuances of English spelling and pronunciation.

The real difficulty goes back to the fundamental difference in thinking, which is largely inarticulable because it's far greater than the sum of its many small parts. I can offer one personal example. It's commonly described that the grammatical structure is Subject→Object→Verb, and while that's not really true―all a grammatically correct sentence needs is a verb―it will serve for our purposes. If I want to say "I go to the library", 「[私は]図書館に行く」, the direction of cause and effect is very obvious for reasons that I'm sure a proper linguist could explain. My best guess is because the inverse proposition "The library comes to me" is absurd. Mountain to Mohammad and all that. This becomes significantly muddied when that certainty is no longer exists. If I'm at the library and I want to say "I criticize Tarou's book" 「[私は]太郎の本を非難する」, the meaning may still be evident in this sanitized example, but not so once language encounters the complexity of actual use, and especially when we introduce inverters like the passive form 〜れる which can reverse the entire direction of the sentence. In a sentence, as long as you're stuck in the western mode of thinking this grammatical structure turns every sentence into a word jumble which must be solved before the meaning can be parsed. More complex sentences increase difficulty exponentially.

This is compounded by the other two key elements of the language's difficulty, politesse and nuance. I can't speak objectively, but relative to English and suchlike languages Moonspeak is far more nuanced, and has much, much more complexity in its politesse. In many ways 丁寧語 and 敬語 are like bonus nested languages. There's enough difference between writing and speech that you might be able to claim the same distinction, if you felt so inclined. The other thing is that while English is a largely neutral language by virtue of its status as global lingua franca, Moonspeak has only ever been the majority language in one country, and is therefore extremely tightly coupled to its own culture. Between that and the sheer age of the language every word has a wealth of meaning that when combined can subtly yet profoundly change the meaning of the whole sentence. I hope one day to merely grok the difference between 「僕」 and 「俺」, nevermind something as complex as 「非難」 and 「批難」. A final sidenote is that the language seems to have far greater difficulty letting go of its history. A game to play if you hate your liver: start studying city and place names and take a shot every time you encounter either an archaic rune that's no longer actually used in the language, or "merely" has an obscure reading no longer in use. If you really want to die, you can use people names instead. Counters are also annoying, but you can simply use つ for most things and people will at least understand you.

And that brings us full-circle. A lot of this difficulty is simply optional. You can easily learn the most basic vocabulary and spew word salad, ignore politesse entirely, and throw in some good old-fashioned shouting and arm waving while you're at it for the complete ugly American experience and you'll still be sufficiently intelligible. You'll be the linguistic equivalent of the bull in a china shop, but you'll at least know where the library is.

One final thing is the absence of direct translations for so many words. There are tons of English concepts that exist only in Moon as loanwords, and the inverse would be true as well if we'd bothered to import as many loanwords. One example is green and blue. As best I can tell, until the end of sakoku the word for blue 「青」 encompassed both blue and green, and that meaning still lingers at least in part IE traffic lights turn 青、 not green. Another is familial relations. There is no word for "brother" or "sister", only words that relate the sibling as older or younger, or a general word for siblings. Once again, there are inversely familial relations for which the equivalent words don't exist in English.

Experts can and will correct me, I'm sure, but tl;dr Moonspeak isn't hard because of kanji or different alphabets or counters or any of that unskilled blogger listicle shit. Moonspeak is hard because it forces your アホ外人 square peg brain into a round language hole and that's hard to describe.
 
Double post, fite me fgts.
Are there any good guides on learning French a la /djt/ or itazuraneko?
 
I speak French (learnt it at school and as a side module at university, though it's rusty and needs practice) and a little Japanese (also rusty, learnt at uni since there was a big Japanese community there) I'm trying to learn Dutch and Mandarin Chinese. Dutch is pretty easy, it's very close to English, Duolingo is alright for it, and there's sites like Taalthuis that can help, and a decent amount of Dutch language media out there to read or watch.
I finished Chinese Duolingo and I can sort of make myself understood and read a little bit now, but it's nowhere near conversational level, Duolingo is more like a phrase book for that.
I've been enjoying another language app, ChineseSkill, which encourages you to write in Chinese rather than pick characters like Duolingo, and features a collection of absolute heads who look like they were arrested at an illegal rave and made to teach foreigners Chinese as their community service. There's characters like Dawei who looks like he could not give a single fuck and is probably the other guys' dealer, Miss No Ears who teaches you shapes by saying what shape of ears she wishes she had, and some nameless mushmouthed wook who looks like a '00s nu-metal frontman and mumbles everything he says so you have to really train your ears to understand him. This accompanied by cartoons that they draw around the photos of the actors to make insane scenarios. The whole thing is ridiculous and I love it.
 
I understand enough German to read the Drachenlord thread. Managed to learn a lot of special vocabulary from cooking apps and fantasy games so there's that. Kinda want to run through Skyrim in german one of these days.

Since the wu flu hit I've picked up some Japanese. Right now I'm good with hira and kana and drilling myself on basic kanji. Still nowhere near the level of basic conversation though.

If I got good at moon runes I'd want to learn either Polish or Icelandic/Old Norse
 
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WARNING: POWERLEVEL AHEAD

I would qualify as quadlingot I'd imagine. I speak German natively, but am fluent in English (noshit), Italian, and Spanish. Im conversational in French and Russian as well, but still not great.

It took a lifetime of learning and I definitely busted my ass, but nothing is more big dicked than walking into a pub in half of Europe and shooting the shit with patrons.

As far as learning goes, and I'm going to sound like a shill, but I find Rosetta Stone (you know, that shit your mom used to try and learn Canadian) to be one of the, if not the best resource out there for intermediate learners. If you're fresh out the gate, Duolingo is pretty nice for being free, though it focuses far too much on vocabulary and less on understanding and speaking a cohesive statement.
 
I know a bit of French, Spanish, German, Classical Latin and Tagalog, but not to any level where I would feel comfortable in saying I know those languages. French is the closest, although it's mostly just reading that I'm okay at.
One downside is that the 3 teachers I had for that were like UK English -> American English -> UK English again, so that's one of the things I keep fucking up.
Just say you know Canadian English then. It's somewhat true and you'll probably get pity from people.
Japanese sounds REALLY complicated, as does German.
I would agree with @Austrian Conscript 1915, German is easier than its reputation in the English-speaking world would tell you. Maybe a bit harder than the other Germanic and Romance languages, but nothing beyond that. It certainly isn't at the level of any of the Slavlangs, let alone the Indo-Aryan, Semitic or CJK languages.
German is so easy, you just need to learn the four cases, and one of them is basically obsolete in common language today. And then you need to learn word order (not in that order) and all the little intricacies of the language, like in English we say "it's five o'clock" but in german they say "es ist funf uhr." and then you need to learn the vocabulary, which shouldn't be difficult if you're not lazy and forgetful like me
Don't forget how case isn't marked on the noun itself, and the Normative and Accusative are only different in the masculine singular. I also found that the German verbal inflectional system somewhat easier to use than the Romance systems, somewhat less complex and closer to English.
 
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So for any of you that knows over one language, what's your advice on learning the languages you pick up? And how can you pick up your language quickly if you had to re-learn it or if you're interested reading, writing and speaking another language?
 
Move to a country that speaks the language as its primary language and take a class there.
 
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Move to the place that speaks that language. Don't think Japan wants weebs coming there though.
 
Effort and patience, native proficiency generally comes from living in the place that speaks the language too.
 
I speak German (native), Malay (native), English (kind of native), French (highschool) and a bit of Esperanto, Japanese, Latin, Greek, Hebrew and Arabic. Languages used to be one of my obsessions, before I real got into cartoons.
 
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