Magic The Gathering

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Power creep is an inevitability in any game that isn't a self-contained single release, I think. Eventually you exhaust all the interesting designs with good gameplay at a given power level and your options from there are either to recycle or to increase power. One of those moves product and the other gets your players complaining that you're out of ideas.

MtG only got away with gentle creep for as long as it did because it started off with some truly busted cards and then dialed things back after that. Once planeswalkers came out and became the default for card advantage, and the shift to NWO required them to do more ETBs on creatures, Magic got stuck on a permanent upward power creep trajectory.
Back at the beginning spells were powerful, but creatures were mostly shit by todays standarts, since they were a permanent source of damage, and there wasn't really a balanced approach to removal. They've tuned big effect spells down, but made creatures better, which commanded better removal, which commanded more creatures with ETBs and so on.
 
I think the number of ETBs increased because it was a way to reduce on-board complexity. Creatures would just be stats and maybe a combat keyword or two once in play, but you could still have them "do something" beside that. That solution made it easier to parse complicated boards but also made spells worse - since they don't leave bodies behind - and it made removal in particular worse since you're no longer trading one-for-one. Planeswalkers being the gold standard for card advantage also drove that shift, since creatures needed to do more to keep up.

There was a little bit of a balance there until they switched to [dumpster] F.I.R.E. design, then *all* the limiters were released.
 
Power creep is an inevitability in any game that isn't a self-contained single release, I think. Eventually you exhaust all the interesting designs with good gameplay at a given power level and your options from there are either to recycle or to increase power. One of those moves product and the other gets your players complaining that you're out of ideas.

MtG only got away with gentle creep for as long as it did because it started off with some truly busted cards and then dialed things back after that. Once planeswalkers came out and became the default for card advantage, and the shift to NWO required them to do more ETBs on creatures, Magic got stuck on a permanent upward power creep trajectory.
I disagree because it didn't have prolonged, extreme power creep until the mid-late 2010s: Historically broken blocks (Urza, Mirrodin) would be followed by a deliberately underpowered one (Masques, Kamigawa) and players tended to dislike both extremes - they wanted good flavor and a balanced meta, not a turn-2 Ravager win or a stalemate/draw because the cards were too weak to do anything.

In my opinion the real turning point was in the mid-2010s when WotC scrapped its philosophy of "QA/Playtesting should catch 100% of broken Standard cards and if it doesn't that reflects badly on everyone involved" in favor of "we will keep Standard balanced with bans going forward" as well as getting rid of tourney winners who were advising the QA/playtesting group. This also explains why the power creep has been so inconsistent - the devs might make a broken set, they might make an underpowered set, but nobody is there to catch and fix these issues anymore. This all dates back to Kaladesh (+ or -) but I suspect it's the same mindset that gave us FIRE a few years after.

My personal tinfoil-hat theory is that this is all being done to push players onto MTGO/Arena - Standard bans becoming the new normal will scare players away from the format, but that can be counterbalanced on Arena with store credit for cards that ended up banned or banning paper cards but keeping them legal online with functional errata (Teferi and Fires of Invention are only the beginning and you know it). Even if WotC tried to implement these in paper Standard the logistics of a banned card buyback would be a mess and printing functional errata would inevitably result in claims of cheating or fraud.
 
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I disagree because it didn't have prolonged, extreme power creep until the mid-late 2010s: Historically broken blocks (Urza, Mirrodin) would be followed by a deliberately underpowered one (Masques, Kamigawa) and players tended to dislike both extremes - they wanted good flavor and a balanced meta, not a turn-2 Ravager win or a stalemate/draw because the cards were too weak to do anything.

In my opinion the real turning point was in the mid-2010s when WotC scrapped its philosophy of "QA/Playtesting should catch 100% of broken Standard cards and if it doesn't that reflects badly on everyone involved" in favor of "we will keep Standard balanced with bans going forward" as well as getting rid of tourney winners who were advising the QA/playtesting group. This also explains why the power creep has been so inconsistent - the devs might make a broken set, they might make an underpowered set, but nobody is there to catch and fix these issues anymore. This all dates back to Kaladesh (+ or -) but I suspect it's the same mindset that gave us FIRE a few years after.

My personal tinfoil-hat theory is that this is all being done to push players onto MTGO/Arena - Standard bans becoming the new normal will scare players away from the format, but that can be counterbalanced on Arena with store credit for cards that ended up banned or banning paper cards but keeping them legal online with functional errata (Teferi and Fires of Invention are only the beginning and you know it). Even if WotC tried to implement these in paper Standard the logistics of a banned card buyback would be a mess and printing functional errata would inevitably result in claims of cheating or fraud.
That all started right around the time they went off the three set block model.
 
Do you mind if I ask what deck you’re building that requires so many rares/mythics? I have two 60 card decks that have gotten me to platinum (black/blue mill deck and mono white soldier aggro) that only have about 10 rare/mythic cards each

My equipment/warrior deck that is almost only comprised of rare/mythic cards has only ever gotten into the low gold tier
Really depends more on what you want to play. If you want to do a simple mono color aggro deck or midrange you can get away with like one or two channel lands and the rest basics for a mana base. That really limits how wildcard intensive your deck is. Now if you wanted to play a dual color deck and actually have it optimized in standard that is instantly 8 rare cards down the shitter just in manabase. And yeah, there are shitty taplands and fetches in standard you can use instead but you will lose a certain number of games because of them. If will suck when you die to getting manascrewed by a tap land that should have been a slowland or painland and you'll be mad about it.

And then when you get into older formats it gets silly, even in explorer I only run 2-3 basics in multi color decks and that means the other 20 or so are all rare (or occasionally mythic) wildcard lands. 4 and 5 color decks usually run 0-1 basics.

Also platinum is literally free, you can hit platinum with a 30 something percent win rate because of gaining 2 pips on wins and losing 1 pip on loss through gold ranks. Lot of people just grind to platinum for rewards (you get both card styles from platinum on) and then squat in platinum 4 playing jank against each other (the other designated shitting rank is the bottom of mythic).
 
Yes, the Reserved List.
Oh, right. For some reason I figured it was a separate policy but it would make sense if it was on the same page.

They did push the boundaries of the RL a while back with the secret layers as they reprinted RL cards in premium foil versions, claiming that was a loophole. That created a big enough legal stink that they issued an update to tighten the RL and stated they were closing the loophole. So with 30th anniversary is a really weird choice, as they were slapped down for things like this before and MaRo has in recent history stated they'd never print a proxy or token of the RL. Granted, that was MaRo on his personal Tumblr, and not the company speaking, so it's not as binding, but it can still probably be brought up.

Do you mind if I ask what deck you’re building that requires so many rares/mythics? I have two 60 card decks that have gotten me to platinum (black/blue mill deck and mono white soldier aggro) that only have about 10 rare/mythic cards each

My equipment/warrior deck that is almost only comprised of rare/mythic cards has only ever gotten into the low gold tier
The decks I'm running are a mono red I just slapped together from what I had and an Esper build that's similar and built from whatever I had laying around from drafts.

As for where I got these rare counts, I just popped open MtG Goldfish and looked at the featured standard decks, as it gives you a rarity count for each deck and all of the decks are from top finishes in events. The vast majority of decks were 50%+ composed of rares and mythics, which is in large part the mana base, but it's amazing that standard requires so many. I remember back in the day you'd have control decks that were heavy on rares, but you'd still have plenty of lower rarities in decks that were aggro and midrange.

It's probably also more noticeable on Arena, because it's such a pain to get those cards whereas in person you could trade for them or buy a lot of the rares for a couple bucks and then it was the last few that were expensive. In Arena all the rares are basically the same difficulty to obtain.

i've always liked this rant about why them pushing ETB effects is shitty design
https://youtube.com/watch?v=356ilzFF8BE
It's even more annoying because they are making removal and counters weaker, while at the same time they're making ETBs more common as well as ways to recur things from your graveyard. You'd think removal would be stronger with everything having some protection from it, but nope.
 
this thread made me turn on arena again, I slapped a green deck together with that saproling/exile creature, and big beaters. think I used 6 rares for it. it's not too bad, just running all the artifact removal and some black splash for creature removal.

everyone is playing black "burn", weenies lifegain, or midrange artifact piles, it seems.

the etb effects make me feel like counterspell should be in standard.
 
It's probably also more noticeable on Arena, because it's such a pain to get those cards whereas in person you could trade for them or buy a lot of the rares for a couple bucks and then it was the last few that were expensive. In Arena all the rares are basically the same difficulty to obtain.
Yeah, that's part of the problem. If you have a choice of building around Invoke Despair or something janky like Bard Class you spend the same amount of rares either way so you pick the straightforward card every time. Whereas IRL cards like Bard Class are sub 50 cents because way more people open them then want them.
It's even more annoying because they are making removal and counters weaker, while at the same time they're making ETBs more common as well as ways to recur things from your graveyard. You'd think removal would be stronger with everything having some protection from it, but nope.
Black removal is as strong as it's ever been. It's really just the other colors that are in shit city, except maybe green (1 mana fight spells are mostly interchangeable) and blue (almost never has a real answer to resolved permanents anyway).

Oh, and Leyline Binding, which is better in Modern for sure but still good as long as you're casting it for 3 or less.

Sidenote, I'd be interested in a standard where every color got it's best removal outside of Modern Horizions horseshit like the red/white elementals. Like to match black doing black things this standard they reprinted Sword to Plowshares, Bolt, Pongify, Beast Within.

Actually, not even sure if Bolt would be that good in standard. Most of the things you need dead are at 4 or more toughness anymore. Strangle is sorcery speed no-face bolt and it still feels like it doesn't really hit that much more then any of the shock-with-upsides in standard.
 
Yeah, that's part of the problem. If you have a choice of building around Invoke Despair or something janky like Bard Class you spend the same amount of rares either way so you pick the straightforward card every time. Whereas IRL cards like Bard Class are sub 50 cents because way more people open them then want them.

Black removal is as strong as it's ever been. It's really just the other colors that are in shit city, except maybe green (1 mana fight spells are mostly interchangeable) and blue (almost never has a real answer to resolved permanents anyway).

Oh, and Leyline Binding, which is better in Modern for sure but still good as long as you're casting it for 3 or less.

Sidenote, I'd be interested in a standard where every color got it's best removal outside of Modern Horizions horseshit like the red/white elementals. Like to match black doing black things this standard they reprinted Sword to Plowshares, Bolt, Pongify, Beast Within.

Actually, not even sure if Bolt would be that good in standard. Most of the things you need dead are at 4 or more toughness anymore. Strangle is sorcery speed no-face bolt and it still feels like it doesn't really hit that much more then any of the shock-with-upsides in standard.
umm sweatie, you aren't allowed to have good cards in standard
here's yet another shittier mana leak and shock
 
the etb effects make me feel like counterspell should be in standard.
Some counters do see play, and I run things like Make Disappear as well as Ertai. The problem is they kind of janky and slow, which makes them feel like dead cards way too often as the conditions just don't line up or they can outvalue them.

Yeah, that's part of the problem. If you have a choice of building around Invoke Despair or something janky like Bard Class you spend the same amount of rares either way so you pick the straightforward card every time. Whereas IRL cards like Bard Class are sub 50 cents because way more people open them then want them.
The other thing is I just won't pay money into Arena, whereas I didn't mind buying real cards. Even if a card loses it's value post rotation, I still have it and can do whatever I want with it, but if Arena just fucks with a format, such as forcing Alchemy into something, there's nothing you can do about it. Hell if they just decide to ban you for some retarded reason, then fuck you, no refunds.

And don't forget, they've just removed cards for being racist or sexual, so what happens if a card from a modern set ends up having a controversial artist? I'm guessing they'll rip it from your collection, or just change it, as Hearthstone has changed things like "Succubus" into a Felhound to appease Chinese markets.

Black removal is as strong as it's ever been. It's really just the other colors that are in shit city, except maybe green (1 mana fight spells are mostly interchangeable) and blue (almost never has a real answer to resolved permanents anyway).
Black removal is strong, but it's been made weaker because of how much recursion there is. There are just so many cards that pop out of the graveyard, or bring things back from the graveyard, have ward, or simply negate removal spells that even something like the 2 mana kill any creature and lose 2 life feels clunky. Then there's the Planeswalker issue, that a lot of the time if you want something that answers those things you have to have a really inefficient spell.

It's why Leyline of Binding is as popular as you mentioned, it just hits anything and exiles it, though it can be removed as well. The 5 mana black spell that goes down in cost for each dude in the graveyard but exiles the creature is seeing some play as a result.
 
They did push the boundaries of the RL a while back with the secret layers as they reprinted RL cards in premium foil versions, claiming that was a loophole. That created a big enough legal stink that they issued an update to tighten the RL and stated they were closing the loophole. So with 30th anniversary is a really weird choice, as they were slapped down for things like this before and MaRo has in recent history stated they'd never print a proxy or token of the RL. Granted, that was MaRo on his personal Tumblr, and not the company speaking, so it's not as binding, but it can still probably be brought up.
Just to be autistic but it wasn't secret lair, it was this guy:
1668989937323.png

Alt art and foiled for the Phyrexian vs Coalition duel deck.

 
I'd say the bigger problem is that two mana removal feels bad when one for one removal makes the person using the removal go down in card advantage. Right now we have removal that makes Doom Blade look bad and it doesn't cut it.
 
Just to be autistic but it wasn't secret lair, it was this guy:
View attachment 3903045

Alt art and foiled for the Phyrexian vs Coalition duel deck.

That was part of it, but it was also a From the Vault (their first attempt at Secret Lairs) that went hard on it and printed a bunch of reserved list cards. Prior to that Negator got the duel deck printing and Survival of the Fittest and Wheel of Fortune had judge promos, but those weren't as big as a product stuffed with them as 4 of the 15 cards were RL reprints:

From the Vault: Relics (August 27)

Karn, Silver Golem

Masticore

Memory Jar

Mox Diamond

Wizards of the Coast recently previewed Phyrexian Negator and Masticore as premium cards that will appear in 2010 Magic® products. Although our reprint policy allows for these premium versions, concern from the community about future reprints has prompted us to alter the policy.

Below are all premium versions of reserved-list cards that will be released in 2010:

Duel Decks: Phyrexia vs. the Coalition (March 19) Phyrexian Negator

From the Vault: Relics (August 27)

Karn, Silver Golem

Masticore

Memory Jar

Mox Diamond

Judge Promos (various)

Phyrexian Dreadnought

Morphling

Thawing Glaciers

Wheel of Fortune

These premium cards will be produced and distributed as specified. Thereafter, Wizards of the Coast will not print any physical, reserved-list card in a tournament-legal version, either in premium or non-premium form.


Edit: The reserved list is kind of retarded as it is now, but I think having a coherent reprint policy is very important. I like how Flesh and Blood does their stuff as they try pretty hard to have boxes contain value while also making the game accessible. The problem is Wizards always overdoes all the shit and even now with the serialized cards they're printing so many that it's going to devalue sooner than later like all of their shit does.
 
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That was part of it, but it was also a From the Vault (their first attempt at Secret Lairs) that went hard on it and printed a bunch of reserved list cards. Prior to that Negator got the duel deck printing and Survival of the Fittest and Wheel of Fortune had judge promos, but those weren't as big as a product stuffed with them as 4 of the 15 cards were RL reprints:

From the Vault: Relics (August 27)

Karn, Silver Golem

Masticore

Memory Jar

Mox Diamond




Edit: The reserved list is kind of retarded as it is now, but I think having a coherent reprint policy is very important. I like how Flesh and Blood does their stuff as they try pretty hard to have boxes contain value while also making the game accessible. The problem is Wizards always overdoes all the shit and even now with the serialized cards they're printing so many that it's going to devalue sooner than later like all of their shit does.
I can not wait for the SL: Dual Lands drawn in crayon for $800.
 
I can not wait for the SL: Dual Lands drawn in crayon for $800.
I'm still not ok with the Universes Beyond content. It started with Walking Dead, and I joked we would have MTG include Frodo Baggins shooting a lazgun at Galactus. We are sadly 2/3 of the way there, as Optimus Prime isn't exactly a great Galactus swap. We might even get enough references to build an Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny EDH deck before WW3. I miss when Magic was Magic, but it's at least got me working on a cube.
 
tear asunder is a good card. on the subject of removal

the secret lairs/expanded crap universe is annoying. but it's been said so much. they keep claiming it's really popular but it's just their word on that, as they don't release sales numbers
 
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