Magic The Gathering

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
Crime - I don't mind this, save it doesn't affect hand/library? That seems weird that if I exile out of your graveyard, I've committed a crime, but if I thoughtsieze or mill you, I haven't.
While I get where you’re coming from, thoughtsieze targests your opponent, commuting a crime. If you have an effect that said each opponent it won’t be a crime, but the mechanic is a bit more inclusive than I think you think it is.
 
Crime - I don't mind this, save it doesn't affect hand/library? That seems weird that if I exile out of your graveyard, I've committed a crime, but if I thoughtsieze or mill you, I haven't.
Crime is gonna break somewhere, I have no idea where but it is so easy to trigger that something is gonna break.
 
While I get where you’re coming from, thoughtsieze targests your opponent, commuting a crime. If you have an effect that said each opponent it won’t be a crime, but the mechanic is a bit more inclusive than I think you think it is.
Oh! I get you now. Hand and library disruption target opponents. I had misread it at first and was thinking the hand/library itself was the target. Ok my bad, thx for the correction - you're alright.
 
Oh! I get you now. Hand and library disruption target opponents. I had misread it at first and was thinking the hand/library itself was the target. Ok my bad, thx for the correction - you're alright.
Crime is basically "target an opponent or anything an opponent controls"
 
What I’m excited to do is try to use mindsplice apparatus to make all the spree cards cost their colored mana and get some nasty value in pioneer. It’s probably not great, but I wanna do it all the same.
 
Outlaws - fine idea, but it's 5 freaking things. The bigger problem is stuff like this and "party" how are you going to be sure you're keeping track of what all counts as an "outlaw" or "party"? (also rogues count for both!)
It's not a build a party, outlaw is just shorthand for "is it one of these 5 types?"

Spree - Brilliant concept, one of the best innovations of the game - awful name. I'd like to see this show up in way more sets, but it's going to be weird always having it named "spree."
I think it's a decent way to template kicker but it's just a new template for kicker and the spree cards themselves have gotten a meh out of me. Ultimately I hate all templates for kicker that don't say kicker because they are just fucking kicker but parasitic so they don't interact with kicker tribal for no good reason.

Saddles/Mounts - Really dumb variant of vehicles. I have trouble believing anybody will ever care about this.
Obligatory limited mechanic that should never poison any card over uncommon rarity (but does)

Plot - A variation of foretell - except everyone gets to see what you're up to. I also kind of like this mechanic and want to see more of it in the future. It's like a more perfect version of "suspend."
I think the draft chaff is fine but they immediately jumped to "plot things that should are not designed to be plotted", it's going to be used to cheat that fucking raccoon to cast it's adventure side in standard and the-good-Tibalt in Pioneer.
What I’m excited to do is try to use mindsplice apparatus to make all the spree cards cost their colored mana and get some nasty value in pioneer. It’s probably not great, but I wanna do it all the same.
Yeah Mindsplice is kind of bad in standard so I wouldn't hope for the best. I tried to make it a meme with the overcosted wrath that gives you X life and 1/1 toxic mites and I decided it would be much much easier to play a non-autistic control deck.
 
I know it's a wild west set, but just roll with me for the moment. Imagine you can travel to different worlds and you find an uninhibited, probably for the first time in eons. The very first thing you do, is make sure everyone has a cowboy hat and laser blasters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Thunder Junction was only discovered after the omen paths opened. Just seems like a missed opportunity for a pioneer set then a wild west.
 
Spree - Brilliant concept, one of the best innovations of the game - awful name. I'd like to see this show up in way more sets, but it's going to be weird always having it named "spree."
This already got called out but it's Kicker. Cards with Kicker that had different options where you could pay neither, one or more of them go back to Planescape or earlier, that they're trying to cram some new way of describing it, likely because someone has claimed that Kicker is not popular likely based off their surveys of three people who go "who's Urza?" is irksome.
Crime is gonna break somewhere, I have no idea where but it is so easy to trigger that something is gonna break.
Looks like most of the cards triggering off it only can be used once a turn. There's still a lot of options and I've seen some amusing options thus far but not seen enough cards yet to spot the broken one. Instinctively though unless there is the once a turn cap then unless the triggered effect is very weak it seems likely to be breakable.
 
Looks like most of the cards triggering off it only can be used once a turn. There's still a lot of options and I've seen some amusing options thus far but not seen enough cards yet to spot the broken one. Instinctively though unless there is the once a turn cap then unless the triggered effect is very weak it seems likely to be breakable.
I think Danny.exe hit a bullseye on this one. These cards will be broken in legacy if they’re decently costed due to the amount of cheap and versatile cards that target things and players. Making a tapped treasure or looting being stapled onto swords to plowshares or solitude? Thoughtsieze or grief? Even being limited to once a turn, it’s every turn not just your turns. Magda and Dualist are the only two cards that have an effect I think are playable, but spoiler season is only two days in… we’ll see what else is on the table.
 
This already got called out but it's Kicker. Cards with Kicker that had different options where you could pay neither, one or more of them go back to Planescape or earlier, that they're trying to cram some new way of describing it,
It's a weird combination of Escalate and Kicker, it is kind of an interesting tuning knob for Charms though.

Like this one

Screenshot 2024-03-27 204058.png

The BBB is a Mono Colored Version of Painful Truths which is a great card, being able to tutor for 2B or do both for 2BBB is kind of really strong, and this is "Target" player so if opponent is at 3 or lower it's a burn spell.

The Cancel that has a Looting mode and a Clone Mode is also really interesting for Commander.

Looks like most of the cards triggering off it only can be used once a turn. There's still a lot of options and I've seen some amusing options thus far but not seen enough cards yet to spot the broken one.
I think the 2 Drop Vampire has a chance to be busted, have you seen the Timeless Surveil Deck that uses Thought Bound Phantasm?
 
So OoTJ mechanics posted.

Outlaws - fine idea, but it's 5 freaking things. The bigger problem is stuff like this and "party" how are you going to be sure you're keeping track of what all counts as an "outlaw" or "party"? (also rogues count for both!)

Crime - I don't mind this, save it doesn't affect hand/library? That seems weird that if I exile out of your graveyard, I've committed a crime, but if I thoughtsieze or mill you, I haven't.

Spree - Brilliant concept, one of the best innovations of the game - awful name. I'd like to see this show up in way more sets, but it's going to be weird always having it named "spree."

Saddles/Mounts - Really dumb variant of vehicles. I have trouble believing anybody will ever care about this.

Plot - A variation of foretell - except everyone gets to see what you're up to. I also kind of like this mechanic and want to see more of it in the future. It's like a more perfect version of "suspend."

Bounties.

Look at this. LOOK AT THIS SHIT
View attachment 5854010

View attachment 5854012

I can't remember who it was talking about how "the rules weren't that complicated" or something - maybe it was @Rich Evans Ayypologist - but I blame you now for this. We've gone from player aides that are helpful, to just plain required.

Every day we get closer to the 4chan joke.

These mechanics, as well as the card set itself, sound like a bad ripoff of Hearthstone's Showdown in the Badlands card set. And at least they had cards that depict guns, and not those Halo-rip off energy swords:

1711591608670.png
 
It's a weird combination of Escalate and Kicker, it is kind of an interesting tuning knob for Charms though.

Like this one

View attachment 5855109

The BBB is a Mono Colored Version of Painful Truths which is a great card, being able to tutor for 2B or do both for 2BBB is kind of really strong, and this is "Target" player so if opponent is at 3 or lower it's a burn spell.

The Cancel that has a Looting mode and a Clone Mode is also really interesting for Commander.
I like this card, I hate the design space. I feel like this is an admission that they can't be assed to work to design cards in clever ways and have to resort to making game mechanics that are intrusive to immersion. Remember, good design makes things look easy, bad design lets you see the underlying systems.
 
I've gathered a few folks in my DMs, but I'm in the process of writing something to submit to PG related to WotC. It'll cover MtG and DnD and maybe Pokemon, but I feel like MtG is going to be at the core of everything. Would greatly appreciate any input and relevant links. I'm trying to develop a timeline. The theme of the article will tracking how WotC went from this amazing industry that was incredible fun and enjoyment to eventually devolving into woke slop.

As of right now, I've set a focal point where I believe one could calculate a downward trajectory:
Triumph of Ferocity.
1711596824618.png

The complaint was that the card was sexist, like the new playmat, and showed disrespect for women in general and so on.
The complaint came amidst an influx of "new players."
We also know, around this time, video games and focused marketing were trying to break new ground among a new generation.
The claim was that the above image of Garruk choking Liliana had "triggered" people.

Elaine Chase, the Brand Director for Magic: The Gathering tweeted this in response:
"Regarding Triumph of Ferocity: Wizards and I apologize for the upsetting situation related to card imagery. In light of the community conversation it can clearly be viewed in a way that is in direct opposition the brand image we strive to maintain. This was absolutely not our intent, but intentions don’t override the real emotional reactions our fans have. While the bigger story provides context, individual cards are seen in isolation. That is the standard each card needs to live up to. In hindsight this story point could have been depicted in a less real-world related and emotionally charged way. We will take this as a learning opportunity and strive to do better in the future."
I don't know if this was archived. I cannot find the original tweet.
At any rate note at the end there the "...strive to do better..."
They're basically apologizing for nothing.

Now, from what I've gathered, this controversy also eventually led to the firing of one Brady Dummermuth.
1711596855839.png
I don't know if this was archived. I cannot find the original post.

This also led to a major retcon of the characters and backstories known as 'Magic Origins'.
Although all the characters had major retcons, the most sited and controversial is a character named Nissa Revane who was created as far back as 2009 as part of an elf deck:
1711596918954.png
Her conception was "a villainous...hardcore, staunch xenophobic person..." that would run an elf deck. Originally, Nissa was an elf-supremist, who had a 'my shit don't stink attitude'. The story elements made sense. Elves throughout fantasy history are usually hoity-toity assholes--even the ones in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.

But all that was changed because they wanted a character who would "reflect our current values and blah blah blah..."
1711596968003.png

Note, this was back in 2015.

Other people I'm researching based on information from @PaladinBoo are Terese Nielson, former MTG artist and one of their best who as fired by WotC due to her pro-Trump and "gender critical" beliefs. Boo also tells me Nielson is a lesbian which is noteworthy because of WotC's insistence that they value "diversity" despite the fact that fired her for wrong think.

Boo also has mentioned OGL, Pinkertons and AI Art. These are three thing are a lot of contention with players and their employees like Matthew Mercer.

Also, @Syaoran Li has provided some input as well:
If I were to determine what the peak was in terms of raw sales and cultural relevance for D&D under WOTC's watch, I'd say it was the early days of 5e and a lot of their current presence is coasting off of that. This was in the mid-2010's (2014-2016), right when 5th Edition came out. 5th Edition had an open development and WOTC went out of their way to get feedback from their fans. And a lot of people liked it at first, even old-school guys who dropped off after TSR died. But there's a reason for that.
That's because D&D 4th Edition was a massive flop. 4e officially ended in 2014 but IIRC, the last actual 4e supplements came out in early 2012, right before the open playtests for 5e began. The history of D&D 4e is a whole clusterfuck in and of itself and is definitely worth mentioning in a thread. A lot of the drama surrounding 4e and its launch in the late 2000's was eerily similar to the current drama today.

Being a DnD nerd myself and having grown up with it, I agree with Syaoran Li about DnD under WOTC was at its best with 3e3.5.

Pathfinder 1e, the only RPG to ever consistently outsell D&D for a period of time was originally conceived as a retro-clone of D&D 3.5 for all the people who were pissed off over 4th Edition's changes.

Another friend of mine has made particular assessments about Mtg here which I plan on researching:
Screenshot_20240327_143448_Discord.jpg


Being unfamiliar with the MtG scene, I've had to do a little dive into it and figure out what WotC have been doing to the community.
1711597631006.png


Screenshot 2024-03-27 234948.png


Related video:
These "premium stores" mentioned around 10:00 are probably another rabbit hole I'll have to dive into.

Also relevant:
1711598035967.png


I'd appreciate all input. And source your stuff if you can; it'll probably go into the article if it's worthwhile.
 
Last edited:
@Cheeseknife Don't forget they delisted various cards, such as Invoke Prejudice and anything by the artist as he was a white nationalist, but in that swath they banned things like Cleanse, Imprison, Crusade (but not Cathar's Crusade), and more as there might be some vague perceived racism that's complete bullshit.

The justification for Imprison for example was that it was a black person. That's how retarded it is, literal dindu.
1711598451524.png
 
@Cheeseknife Don't forget they delisted various cards, such as Invoke Prejudice and anything by the artist as he was a white nationalist, but in that swath they banned things like Cleanse, Imprison, Crusade (but not Cathar's Crusade), and more as there might be some vague perceived racism that's complete bullshit.

The justification for Imprison for example was that it was a black person. That's how retarded it is, literal dindu.
View attachment 5856203
Found the article. It's been archived too. Thanks!
 
Something the article doesn't mention is this happened during the Floyd Riots, so WotC was pandering to BLM hard. I think they originally mentioned they were doing it in honor of Floyd but maybe they showed some restraint.
Oh, wow! That's incredibly poignant. And yeah, you're correct. the riots started on May 26, 2020 while this change was made 2 weeks later on June 10, 2020.
Now I want to know if there are any relevant tweets or other comments about this.
 
Oh, wow! That's incredibly poignant. And yeah, you're correct. the riots started on May 26, 2020 while this change was made 2 weeks later on June 10, 2020.
Now I want to know if there are any relevant tweets or other comments about this.
I'm almost sure there was, check The Quartering's channel as he probably covered it, but it was completely a direct response to it. Patrick Sullivan applauded it at the time as well. I know if you look at the official WotC database for cards it will flag cards like that as inappropriate.

One weird one is Stone Throwing Devils, I have never heard mention of it before the card, but apparently it's an anti-Palestine term. I remember trying to dig up info about it as it sounded like bullshit, and all I could find was people talking about the card and nothing else.

Oh, and Rudy from Alpha Investments made videos about the racist cards, calling them the new age reserved list because they all spiked hard in price. eBay at the time was banning and removing listings for them but gave up at some point. They don't appear in TCGplayer.

Edit: Also, look into the Chandra being made straight in a book, she was lesbo bait for a while then one author made her lust for Gideon which caused a massive shit storm, the pandered to audience got WotC to apologize for not making her super gay and then WotC stopped listing the author's name on future books to protect their identity from the audience they pandered to.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom