Magic The Gathering

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Dang it! Tarkir isn't out and they're already advertising Spider-man.

Honka Honka Burning Love said:
What is there to market? OG Tarkir was near a decade ago at this point. Seige Rhino being a fun meme, Fetches and Delve being broken in older formats.

Like the Wedges are cool and lord knows Magic the Gathering's Playerbase will just consoooom anything with Multicolor themes, but like The Khans aren't a thing anymore in the way they were before, We had Narset in this timeline ignite her spark and lose it, Anafenza is dead, Sidsi is an Undead Thrall, Zurgo is around..but he SHOULD be Allied with the Dragons given that Ojutai and He worked together to fight the Phyrexians and Surrak is working for Atarka..and is a favored servant because he is strong.

Then we have Jace, Vraska and Loot..whom we have no actual fucking idea what they are doing, we have had 3 sets since Jace and Vraska got ahold of Not Baby Yoda and we still don't actually know what the goal is.

Like the Marketing is gonna be "Remember the Khans! Remember the Dragonlords! THEY BE FIGHTING NOW!"

Edit : I say this as someone who likes OG Tarkir, it was a cool set I just don't fucking know what "Marketing" there is supposed to be because the main draw of the plane was removed and..while you can just "Bring the Khans back" it will just be another instance of WOTC undoing the ending of a Block's storyline so we can trot out the thing people liked.
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OG Khans was kind of awesome in spite of itself. Even MaRo has admitted in his podcast and articles that the set messed up with the whole morph thing.
We Left Tarkir in the Wrong State

For most of the other mistakes, I think I know what I'd do if I had to do the block over again. The solution to this one, though, is far less obvious. Magic has a long history of creating cool, exciting worlds and then trashing them. I believe it is one of the biggest issues with a three-set block, that the need to make the last set so different mechanically pushes us to do radical things to the world to match the environmental shift.

Long ago, we saw mechanics as disposable; we then came to realize that they were valuable tools we could reuse. I think in many ways we used to see worlds in the same way. We visit and move on. But now we're realizing we've built cool places we want to go back to. That gets us to this problem. We made a very compelling world that players fell in love with, and then we changed it to a less compelling world forever. Now, I don't believe we thought we were doing that. We over-valued the Dragon-filled world and underestimated the warlord clan world.

This also ties into another problem. One of the reasons we chose a wedge theme for Khans of Tarkir was because we knew it wasn't mechanically deep enough to use for an entire block. But by giving players a taste of wedge in the beginning, we set up a desire for us to deliver that for the whole block when there was no way we could.

What do these two things mean? It means with 20/20 hindsight, we did the change backwards. We should have started with Dragons, probably with another layer added in and then had the world change to clan-filled wedge world. Players would have been excited to get wedge without any expectation for more as the block would have ended.

The reason this change is so problematic is that we went to Tarkir, Sarkhan's homeworld, because we wanted to end with Dragons. Tarkir was a world defined as having no Dragons, so starting with Dragons would have required a completely different world—meaning this is a messy problem with no easy solution.

[snip]
Khans of Tarkir block had ten clan mechanics. In addition, it had the return of one of the most complex mechanics in Magic's history—morph. But not just morph—it also had two variants on morph, and one of those was extra complex. That was a lot. Design worked hard to make sure all the non-morph mechanics were on the simpler side, and we connected the ten clan mechanics so they played nicely with one another.

How'd we do? I think for the volume of mechanics we juggled, we did well, but we still bit off way more than we were supposed to. Looking back, I question the inclusion of morph and its variants. The block could have just had the ten clan mechanics and been fine. Yes, it would have been different, but I think we could have made a very compelling design. But the entire set was built around morph—so by the time I realized what was going on, it wasn't something we could take out.
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So reading all that, it's hard not to feel that dragonstorm here is going to be "Tarkir as it should have been" instead of what it was.

I also see that there is a Tarkir Restrospective article by one "sam stoddard" which is now a dead link:

But I'm on the hunt to see if I can find a live copy somewhere.
 
We Left Tarkir in the Wrong State
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Bullshit, this is bullshit, the plot of Tarkir (At the time, Minus one major plot point) makes sense. Ugin coming back meaning Dragons rule the plane makes sense, and again I am willing to bet that you could ask people at a Magic Con why they like the Khans and you won't get a single answer beyond "They are cool" "Wedge faction!"

The fact that the Wedge Khans are more popular than the dragonlords doesn't mean you just wave Nissa's Girl Cock like a magic wand and undo it.

"Tarkir as it should have been"
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You mean Tarkir as Social Media thinks it should have been.
 
Thiletonomics said:
I can actually see UB actually increasing it, given that the likely candidates for UB collaborations are of franchises that already attract troons.
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And now we know how Universes Beyond dies in 5 years.

*looks at youtube recommends*

Wait we got Marvel Spoilers?

Holy fuck they really are trying to bury the hell out of Return to Tarkir. The Loot Arc Must have sold less than Homelands kek.
 
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You know looking back... it is kind of funny that both times they have done wedge sets, they have kind of failed in certain ways. Both tarkir and ikoria they talk about having overdone the complexity.

If this set goes off well, you think we'll ever see ikoria again or will Tarkir just be like ravnica and become the go-to wedge plane when they need it? (though heck I'm still waiting for a return to Alara)

Honka Honka Burning Love said:
The fact that the Wedge Khans are more popular than the dragonlords doesn't mean you just wave Nissa's Girl Cock like a magic wand and undo it.
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In principle? Yes.

You think they're actually going to hold to any principle though? They went and made up a reason for Kaladesh to change its name. They're going to invent a reason for the clans to come out on top for Tarkir2.

Though I think you're confusing a bit MaRo talking about "ought" with what "is." Yes - as they wrote Tarkir, the story made sense, because that's how you construct stories. What MaRo is saying is that looking back, if they had the knowledge then they have now, they would have flipped the story and... well they would have done a lot of things differently. And had they done those things differently at the start, then we would have gotten a different story, one where the clans ending up in charge instead of dragons makes sense.

I'll be you real money in his upcoming articles on Tarkir or in his podcast, MaRo will probably make some comment about this new set being "the Tarkir we should have done."

Honka Honka Burning Love said:
You mean Tarkir as Social Media thinks it should have been.
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Well I technically meant as MaRo thinks it should have been.

Honka Honka Burning Love said:
And now we know how Universes Beyond dies in 5 years.
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Depending on definitions of "die," I'd give it 3.
 
Flexo said:
In principle? Yes.

You think they're actually going to hold to any principle though? They went and made up a reason for Kaladesh to change its name. They're going to invent a reason for the clans to come out on top for Tarkir2.
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No but that is why people give more of a shit about Universes Beyond than Magic's Failed IP.

Though I think you're confusing a bit MaRo talking about "ought" with what "is." Yes - as they wrote Tarkir, the story made sense, because that's how you construct stories. What MaRo is saying is that looking back, if they had the knowledge then they have now, they would have flipped the story and... well they would have done a lot of things differently. And had they done those things differently at the start, then we would have gotten a different story, one where the clans ending up in charge instead of dragons makes sense.
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The problem is, if you do "Tarkir in Reverse" then..how does Ugin not die?

The Khans vs Dragon stuff plot wise is not the main thrust of the plot of Tarkir's first block, they were window dressing while the main plot was "Sarkhan finds out what the fuck happened with Ugin cause he No Showed when the Eldrazi got unleashed twice now"

Like The Dragons are Alive because Ugin is alive now that makes sense, Ugin Alive and the Khans Ruling Tarkir are kind of mutually exclusive unless you completely rewrite the entire plot from the ground up to be something completely different which means the Khans probably aren't going to get as popular as they are because part of the reason people latched onto the Khans is becuase they were only in the first set of the block and some of the second.

MaRo thinks it should have been.
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MaRo will literally only follow the Popular (Positive) Opinions like a Cow being lead by the nose, the only opinion he has of his own is "UN SETS ARE COOL"

Depending on definitions of "die," I'd give it 3.
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5 is pretty charitable. Especially when you look at how fast the pendulum swung in the last month. Either they knock off this stuff or die, and even Hasbro can see that
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I am giving it 3 years before they announce "Scaling Back" of Universes Beyond, and Development is 2 years behind.

When they Did the 1 Large 1 Small, we got

Zendikar 2
Innistrad 2
Kaladesh
Amonkhet
Ixalan

So that is about 3 years before switching to "All Large Blocks" in 2018 with Dominaria and this lasts until 2023 so about 5 Years, were we get our next major "shift in Focus"

"we are no longer going to be focusing on Planeswalkers."

And now 2 years after that..we JUMP to "Universes Beyond are Standard Tentpole sets" which is obviously an emergency move because the Kellen and Loot sagas have been absymal.

So between 2-5 years give they have been jumping from random shit to random shit trying to get SOMETHING to work, so I would give 3 years before they Announce another Refocus..but I think it will take 5 because they will have pre-existing agreements for sets they are making. So enjoy the fucking Ride for the next Half Decade, its gonna be fucking wild.

Edit : Oh by the way this all is going to be made a hundred times worse by the fact that WOTC is running the gambit on popular franchise like Vraska's 5 Alarm Golgari Chili does through Jace's intestines.

Lets Start listing the number of IPs that can actually fucking carry a Magic Set and realize we are already doing Avatar the Last Airbender which hasn't been a Relevant Property since I was FUCKING 12.
 
macrodegenerate said:
5 is pretty charitable. Especially when you look at how fast the pendulum swung in the last month. Either they knock off this stuff or die, and even Hasbro can see that
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All the weirdos in traditional nerd communities aren't going to go away at best you simply won't have products pandering to them, but the people will still be there.
 
Honka Honka Burning Love said:
No but that is why people give more of a shit about Universes Beyond than Magic's Failed IP.
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Oh I'm not arguing with you about that.

Honka Honka Burning Love said:
The problem is, if you do "Tarkir in Reverse" then..how does Ugin not die?

The Khans vs Dragon stuff plot wise is not the main thrust of the plot of Tarkir's first block, they were window dressing while the main plot was "Sarkhan finds out what the fuck happened with Ugin cause he No Showed when the Eldrazi got unleashed twice now"

Like The Dragons are Alive because Ugin is alive now that makes sense, Ugin Alive and the Khans Ruling Tarkir are kind of mutually exclusive unless you completely rewrite the entire plot from the ground up to be something completely different which means the Khans probably aren't going to get as popular as they are because part of the reason people latched onto the Khans is becuase they were only in the first set of the block and some of the second.
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Yeah, the plot definitely works as they built it. Had they want to do the reverse, they would have to do something like... well they would probably repeat Sorin's story where Ugin didn't show up on Zendikar because he was busy on Tarkir. And/or they make up some story where Bolas went and locked up Ugin in a jail and the dragons are dying out on Tarkir because daddy hasn't been home for awhile.

Again, this is all assuming we still keep Ugin tied to Tarkir in some way. They don't have to do that if we're talking a hypothetical where they rebuilt things from the ground up. If they wanted to reverse it with the clans coming out on top, they could have adjusted the story so Ugin wasn't involved with it. Or heck, maybe if you have Sarkhan being a fanboy of Ugin (after his service to Bolas and all), you could do some story where Ugin is super injured by Bolas (have it done after mending rather than pre-mending) so to save/resurrect him, Sarkhan takes Ugin to Tarkir where the elder dragon has to absorb the essence of the dragons on the plane, decimating their numbers and allowing the Khans to take over.

Heck in his article MaRo even admitted they made a mistake by having the background of Tarkir not allow for baby dragons - so conceivably from the start they just make the plane more "normal" and have dragons be regular creatures

See? It's totally doable if you are literally revamping things from scratch.

Honka Honka Burning Love said:
I am giving it 3 years before they announce "Scaling Back" of Universes Beyond, and Development is 2 years behind.

When they Did the 1 Large 1 Small, we got

Zendikar 2
Innistrad 2
Kaladesh
Amonkhet
Ixalan

So that is about 3 years before switching to "All Large Blocks" in 2018 with Dominaria and this lasts until 2023 so about 5 Years, were we get our next major "shift in Focus"
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Ok that's a fair point. Though now that you point out, I wonder if it would take longer - 6 or 7 years since they're going to ride "LotR was the biggest selling set OF ALL TIME" for awhile.

Honka Honka Burning Love said:
"we are no longer going to be focusing on Planeswalkers."

And now 2 years after that..we JUMP to "Universes Beyond are Standard Tentpole sets" which is obviously an emergency move because the Kellen and Loot sagas have been absymal.
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Wait - Kellen was supposed to be a saga?

Did anyone care? Even tumblrites?
 
Flexo said:
Dang it! Tarkir isn't out and they're already advertising Spider-man.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/collecting-marvels-spider-man https://www.ign.com/articles/spider-man-magic-the-gathering-crossover-reveal-card-spoilers
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More importantly Spider-Man + Elsa is now canon
1740869266028.png 1740869274960.png
 
Rumpled Foreskin said:
Hey, genuine question that has prolly been answered ten times, but, why the fuck are there so many troons that play this game?
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Games like this attract people who want to feel superior over others, troonery is an ultimate trump card these days and forces most people to behave how you demand. When troonery falls out of favor in the public eye, or becomes something that's accepted with indifference, you'll probably see a lot of them detroon all of a sudden.
 
Flexo said:
Again, this is all assuming we still keep Ugin tied to Tarkir in some way
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But the point of the plot is seeing what the hell is up with Ugin, that is why we went to Zendikar afterwards because Daddy Ugin is gonna solve (not because LOL he is a Bant Elder Dragon so he cares more about Ecology than fixing the Eldrazi problem) things.

Ok that's a fair point. Though now that you point out, I wonder if it would take longer - 6 or 7 years since they're going to ride "LotR was the biggest selling set OF ALL TIME" for awhile.
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They say every single fucking set sells amazing till Maro has to admit "No MKM was a failure" 2 years later. I fundementally do not trust anything Wizards says about sales.

Wait - Kellen was supposed to be a saga?

Did anyone care? Even tumblrites?
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Yes, that is why he was in every set, The Storyline from Wilds of Eldraine to Thunder Junction was in THEORY about Kellen finding his Father (Oko), it is just that Wilds was the only story where he was the POV character because WOTC is literally retarded when it comes to writing. The worst part is that Kellen himself was kind of cool as a dude when he was around, you have the Skeleton of an actually interesting story with him.

Half Fae living in a backwoods town, gets an offer from The King of the Fae that if he goes on a quest he will get information about who is Father is.
Finds out that his Father is a Planeswalker, discovers what Omenpaths are..Goes on a Journey to Find his dad.
First place is Ixalan..not exactly a place to find Oko but gets involved in a War, kinda grows as a character..Meets Vampire Goth GF who goes with him.
Ends up on Ravnica which is THE BIG CITY, this is a place to find out where your Dad is because you have real powerhouses of the Multiverse here.
Finds out his Father is on Thunder Junction, goes there..betrays the Ravnicans because its his dad...finds out his Dad isn't all that great because you know..fucking Fae.

If you make Kellen the actual Main character of this outline and put it in Brandon Sanderson's hands and let him do his thing you probably get at least a 5/10 storyline from it.
 
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Honka Honka Burning Love said:
The problem is, if you do "Tarkir in Reverse" then..how does Ugin not die?

The Khans vs Dragon stuff plot wise is not the main thrust of the plot of Tarkir's first block, they were window dressing while the main plot was "Sarkhan finds out what the fuck happened with Ugin cause he No Showed when the Eldrazi got unleashed twice now"

Like The Dragons are Alive because Ugin is alive now that makes sense, Ugin Alive and the Khans Ruling Tarkir are kind of mutually exclusive unless you completely rewrite the entire plot from the ground up to be something completely different which means the Khans probably aren't going to get as popular as they are because part of the reason people latched onto the Khans is becuase they were only in the first set of the block and some of the second.
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I'd have the former khans work with dragons to reform the wedge colors while simultaneously making the dragons into wedge colored beings. Like Zurgo being Ojutai's Muscle or Surrak being forced to help Silumgar.
 
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