Mega Rad Gun Thread

[Seafarer]

I remember when toll-booth robberies at gunpoint were a fairly common thing, especially in big cities, which is what makes this funny.... I wonder what issue of Mad (or Cracked) this came from.



I dig it, but what's up with that muzzle... shroud? The thing looks like it came off one of those flamethrowers used to lay asphalt shingles.

Looking it up, apparently “Toll Booth Guns” were an actual thing, here is another one:


The 60’s were a magical time.

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

A brief history of captive-piston ammo in Russia:

This is a guest post by the Russian firearms expert and historian Maxim Popenker, co-author (with Anthony Williams) of several reference works1, and the founder and owner of the indispensable world.guns.ru website. some time ago, we mentioned in a story on the Quiet Special Purpose Revolver that the US had not pursued such technology, but the Russians had, and Max asked if our readers wanted to know that Russian history. We said they certainly did, and he shared it with us — and now, with you. It has been very lightly edited, which is amazing given that Max is writing in what is to him a foreign language. We have added amplifying footnotes here and there. — Ed.

A very brief history of the internally suppressed, captive piston ammunition and firearms in Russia.

The basic concept of suppression of the firearm’s sound by capturing powder gases inside a closed volume in not new. In fact, it is quite old, with patents to that effect issued in USA as early as 1902 (see US Patent # 692,819 “Means for effecting noiseless discharge of guns” by J.E.Bissell)2.

In Soviet Russia, a similar concept was first researched shortly before and during the Great Patriotic War3. So far we know about two concurrent developments, one by designer Gurevich and another by the Mitin brothers (who also designed more conventional sound suppressors for Nagant revolvers4 and Mosin M1891/30 rifles successfully used by Soviet partisan and NKVD troops against invading Nazis).

The design by Gurevich was quite similar to that of Bissell; it also used a special cartridge with a piston in front of the powder charge, and a portion of water, which was used to push the 5.6mm or 6mm projectile through the bore; the powder gases were contained inside the case by jamming the piston inside the case mouth. Ammunition was based on 20 Gauge brass shotgun shells, and fired from the single shot, break-open pistols, or, later, through a special revolver with a necessarily long and wide cylinder.

The Mitin brothers’ design was more unorthodox, in a sense. It featured a heavily modified Nagant revolver with two coaxially mounted cylinders. One cylinder sat in its conventional place, holding seven rounds of ammunition with sabots and subcaliber bullets. The second cylinder, mounted on the same axis and rotating synchronously with the first, sat at the muzzle of the gun. The front cylinder was bored through with seven bores, slightly squeezed or choked at the front. When the gun was fired, the projectile with its sabot travelled through the barrel in the traditional way; then, its 7.62mm sabot jammed itself in the constricted bore of the front cylinder, and the smaller-diameter bullet continued forward and to the target. Neither design was successful, and for some time the concept was abandoned.

During 1950s, the famous Soviet gun designer Igor Stechkin5 was tasked to design several deep concealment, noiseless weapons for KGB and GRU6; He then produced an experimental SP-1 cartridge7, similar in concept to that of the Mitin brothers. It used a specially designed bullet which could be squeezed through a constricted bore with an entry (throat) diameter of 9mm and exit (muzzle) diameter of 7.62mm.

A special 9mm wad, placed between the projectile and powder charge, jammed itself in the bore to capture powder gases inside the barrel. Stechkin produced several prototype three-barrel guns on this concept, concealed inside a flat tin case imitating a contemporary cigarette case.

Later on, Stechkin produced an improved round, SP-2, with long, 7.62mm projectiles consisting of the jacket from 7.62mm TT bullet8, fitted with long aluminum core. The cartridge case contained small amount of powder and a pusher piston, which captured powder gases at the neck of the case.

During the sixties, similar developments were conducted by KGB’s own research institute (yes, they had their own well-funded and top secret scientific and R&D branch at the time). For their own use, KGB produced two similar captive piston rounds of same basic design but of different size and power.

The smaller (and better known) one was the 7.62x63mm PZ “Zmeya” (Snake) cartridge, which later evolved into cheaper and more reliable PZAM cartridge of the same basic dimensions. It featured a massive steel case with a single-stage piston which propelled a standard 7.62mm PS projectile, taken out of the 7.62×39 M43 intermediate cartridge. Combined with the derringer-type break-open S4 pistol (see http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/s4m-silent-e.html ) with two barrels, the PZ was intended for use by undercover agents, as well as by military Special Forces (Spetsnaz) to take out sentries or other enemy personnel during critical missions behind enemy lines.

The larger cartridge is noticeably scarcer even now. It is quite big and heavy (case length is 93mm), and it is available in two varieties, based on the same machined steel case. The PFAM “Falanga” cartridge was loaded with a heavy, pointed 9mm projectile made of hardened steel and equipped with a brass driving band. It was intended to take out NATO personnel wearing body armor, who can be found in the vicinity of critical installations such as C3I, ammo depots, airfields and tactical missile launchers. The PMAM “Mundstuck” propelling round was loaded with an aluminum push rod, used to silently propel a 30mm AP-I grenade, which would deal with the targets listed above, once the guard personnel were accounted for using PFAM rounds. Both rounds were fired from a huge, single shot pistol known as “Device D” (see http://world.guns.ru/grenade/rus/device-d-e.html ), and, later on, through a multi-shot carbine / launcher “Device DM” (see http://world.guns.ru/grenade/rus/device-dm-e.html ).

During the early 1970s, the Tula Arms factory developed a more compact alternative to the PZAM ammunition and S4 pistol, in the form of a 7.62×35 SP-3 cartridge and a double-barrel, derringer-style MSP pistol (see http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/msp-silent-e.html ). This ammunition also used 7.62 M43 PS bullet, but featured a noticeably shorter and lighter case with a two-stage telescoped piston. To ensure safe containment of a high pressure gases, the thin-walled steel case is noticeably “fireformed” during the discharge. The same SP-3 ammunition was later used for the single-shot NRS shooting knife (see http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/nrs-e.html ).

The current author can attest that MSP pistol with SP-3 ammunition is quite silent; it is noticeably quieter than, say, integrally suppressed PB pistol firing 9×18 PM ammunition. However, KGB and GRU wanted their agents to be armed with silenced guns that could offer more than 2 shots and more lethality. This was achieved during early 1980s with introduction of the now well known PSS semi-automatic pistol (see http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/rus/pss-silent-e.html ) and its 7.62×40 SP-4 ammunition.

The latter featured a single-stage pusher piston, jammed at the neck of the case, and unique projectile, made from steel rod and equipped with brass driving band at the front. This weapon is still issued to special elements of Russian army and police, and appears to be quite popular for its intended role – taking out bad guys (these days it’s mostly Muslim terrorists or organized crime strongmen) with as little sound as possible. The only weak spot of the PSS, besides its unique and expensive ammo, is, surprisingly, its semi-automatic action, which produces most unwelcome sounds during the cycle.

To alleviate this problem while maintaining adequate capacity, the late Igor Stechkin designed an unique OTs-38 revolver (see http://world.guns.ru/handguns/double-action-revolvers/rus/ots-3-silent-e.html ). This five-shot revolver produces noticeably less sound when fired, compared to the PSS. It also features a barrel, aligned with the bottom chamber of the cylinder, a manual safety for cocked and locked carry, and a built-in laser pointer above the barrel. And if all that is not enough, it also features a unique side-swinging cylinder, a system developed to ensure ideal coaxial alignment of the bore and cylinder chamber, which is especially important due to blunt shape and hard nose of the SP-4 bullet.

Finally, we must mention two underbarrel grenade launchers, built to same concept of capturing powder gases inside the closed volume. The first is “Tishina” (Silence) system, developed during 1970s to be mounted below the barrel of AMK / AKMS rifle. It used 30mm AP-I grenade, similar to that of used in D and DM devices, and propelled by a special blank 7.62×39 round Powder gases were captured after each shot gy a piston, located inside the rear part of the launcher’s barrel. With introduction of the 5.45mm small arms systems into the Soviet Army, it was reworked into the “Kanarejka” (Canary) system, mounted below the AKS-74U assault rifle. It was similar to the predecessor in concept, but used 5.45mm blank cartridges (see http://world.guns.ru/grenade/rus/bs-1-tishina-e.html ).

While we’ve linked to the patent, you can also find it in a previous article Max wrote for Forgotten Weapons. Yes, if you’ve read that you still need to read this one. And vice versa (it’s Part III of a three-parter on Spetsnaz weaponry).
You guys probably know this already, but The Great Patriotic War is the Russian and Soviet term for World War II, which began for them when Hitler broke the non-aggression pact and invaded the USSR on 22 June 1941.
Russian Nagants were well-suited to suppression because of their gas-seal design, unlike other revolvers (even other Nagants, many of which were produced in Belgium with no gas-seal mechanism).
Stechkin is best known in the West for his select-fire pistol with a stock holster, the APS, which was produced in the early 1950s and remained in Soviet and Russian service for a long time. Some were exported to friendly states and guerrilla movements; one was a favorite of Argentine Communist revolutionary, Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara.
Two Soviet intelligence agencies. The KGB stood for Committee for State Security and was a political/civilian intelligence and counterintelligence organization like the FBI or CIA (although its officers had military ranks, and in some assignments, wore uniforms). Its successors in the Russian Federation are the SVR (foreign intelligence gathering) and the FSB (counterintelligence and domestic security) of Russia. The GRU was the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff — military intelligence; it still exists except as a function of the Russian not Soviet General Staff.
“SP” stands for Spetsianiy Patron, “special cartridge.”
This is the 7.62 x 25mm Russian round of the TT (Tula-Tokarev) pistol of 1930 and 1933, also used in the wartime submachine guns PPSh-41 and PPS-43.

~~~~~~~~
Norman Yarvin
September 10, 2015 at 16:43
What eventually happens to the pressure behind the captive piston? Does it leak out over hours? Minutes? Days? Seconds? I don’t suppose it’s retained indefinitely — that would mean that the spent cartridges in the photos still contained dangerous pressures, which seems improbable (though I suppose they could have been drilled to relieve the pressure). But does the cartridge hiss loudly for several seconds after being fired, or weakly for several hours, or does it vary from round to round? (I notice that one of these cartridges is called “Snake”, which would be appropriate for something that hissed.)

This also brings up the question of extraction. Normal cases press out hard on the inside of the chamber when fired, and can’t be extracted until the pressure has dropped. From the cross-section photo I see some of these rounds have especially thick case walls, presumably so they don’t press so hard on the chamber and thus can be extracted while still retaining pressure. But the SP-3 looks almost like a normal case, so maybe you’d have to wait for it to stop hissing before you could eject the spent cartridges? (And maybe the SP-4’s walls were beefed up specifically so that it would work in a semiauto?)

Agent X
September 11, 2015 at 00:21
You have a good point. However, PV=nRT. As heat is rapidly lost from the cartridge, the pressure inside would drop substantially. Not necessarily to neutral, but it would certainly be far less than the peak pressure after full propellant combustion.

Max Popenker
September 11, 2015 at 03:55
first, pressure drops as gas inside cools off. second, gas slowly leaks out. But I wouldn’t try to section a fired cartridge like this until it is several days old, if just to be on the safe side of things.

Max Popenker
September 11, 2015 at 03:57
also, from my personal experience there’s absolutely no “hiss”. SP-3 cases are fire-formed during discharge, but I had no issues pulling out an expended clip just seconds after I shoot the thing.

ABOUT WEAPONSMAN
WeaponsMan is a blog about weapons. Primarily ground combat weapons, primarily small arms and man-portable crew-served weapons. The site owner is a former Special Forces weapons man (MOS 18B, before the 18 series, 11B with Skill Qualification Indicator of S), and you can expect any guest columnists to be similarly qualified.

Our focus is on weapons: their history, effects and employment. This is not your go-to place for gun laws or gun politics; other people have that covered.

Device DM
PSS

OTS-38

 

[AGPinochet]

I dig it, but what's up with that muzzle... shroud?

It is a blast diffuser, meant to slip over muzzle devices. Western equivelants would be the Surefire Warden or the Dead Air Pyro with the optional insert. The first time I saw one it was being used on a rifle whose muzzle was extremely close to the face of a Vant ballistic shield operator. Strategy was to provide a bulletproof wall from behind which the guy with the rifle could fire I guess.
Site won't let me post the actual image but here is a link to a reddit thread which features the image I was talking about in the OP.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Actual product page

ДТК LANTAC 24х1,5 кал.7,62 с перфорированной банкой.

rotor43.ru

The Ammo patent this guy came up with reminds me of 9mm AUPO

Graves G1 COMBAT Pistol Caliber Carbine -

Designed in 2014-2015, the Graves G1 Combat has a rather interesting design with four US patents issued for various elements of its mechanism.

www.thefirearmblog.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_CB_M2

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

It is a blast diffuser, meant to slip over muzzle devices. Western equivelants would be the Surefire Warden or the Dead Air Pyro with the optional insert. The first time I saw one it was being used on a rifle whose muzzle was extremely close to the face of a Vant ballistic shield operator.

I mean, it looks kinda cool & I get the why; but it really does look like something Ivan Bubbavich pulled from an asphalt blowtorch, and would brand the user on a regular basis.

 

[Badungus Kabungus]

It is a blast diffuser, meant to slip over muzzle devices. Western equivelants would be the Surefire Warden or the Dead Air Pyro with the optional insert. The first time I saw one it was being used on a rifle whose muzzle was extremely close to the face of a Vant ballistic shield operator. Strategy was to provide a bulletproof wall from behind which the guy with the rifle could fire I guess.
Site won't let me post the actual image but here is a link to a reddit thread which features the image I was talking about in the OP.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Actual product page

ДТК LANTAC 24х1,5 кал.7,62 с перфорированной банкой.

rotor43.ru

Looks pretty close to the Ferfrans CQB/CRD, although the description says "LANTAC-style."

Edit: Anyone got any experience with the Ferfrans? Works as advertised or not worth the money?

 

[Club Sandwich]

Ferfrans

they're a waste if you aren't using an SBR.

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

Graves G1 COMBAT Pistol Caliber Carbine -

Designed in 2014-2015, the Graves G1 Combat has a rather interesting design with four US patents issued for various elements of its mechanism.

www.thefirearmblog.com

Graves G1 Combat is chambered in 9X19mm Luger.... or 7.62x25mm Tokarev.

Shut up and take my money!

The Graves G1 Combat carbine is still in the prototype stage...

Goddamnit!

And the "Rocket Fire" ammo is interesting too, especially if it can push 9x19 up to ludicrous speed, or at least equivalent to 7.62x25.

As seen in the picture above, a cartridge case built with the Rocket Fire technology is like internally bottlenecked. This design allows for reducing the propellant consumption or achieving higher muzzle velocities at a given amount of propellant and dimensions of a straight-walled cartridge case.

 

[Badungus Kabungus]

they're a waste if you aren't using an SBR.

Good to know, thanks. I was thinking about something with a 16.5" barrel.

View attachment 4689098


Shut up and take my money!

Goddamnit!

And the "Rocket Fire" ammo is interesting too, especially if it can push 9x19 up to ludicrous speed, or at least equivalent to 7.62x25.
View attachment 4689166

Spaceballs-style design aside, it does have some interesting solutions like that buffer system. Also yes, 7.62x25mm. Kind of wish Henry had a version of the Homesteader in 7.62x25, that would be fun.

 

[AGPinochet]

I have found a most interesting unreleased, still under development product. More accurately I finally saw it for what it was and what it is, is pretty cool.

The HRF Concepts COVR.
It essentially does the Romeo-2 convertible thing but for an RMR. My dumbass when I first saw it weeks ago was that it was some kind of armor for a Holosun EPS.
Thread discussing it (also contains discussion regarding a rumor of a potentially enclosed RMR Type 3 to be revealed at NRAAM this year)

HRF Concepts COVR for RMR

Stumbled on this on Instagram, HRF concepts, best know for their AR rifle mag wells, is working on a ROMEO2 type removable cover to enclose the emitter of RMRs. Im assuming from the drawing it attaches via the drain holes rather than the mounting screws. 100555...

pistol-forum.com

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

I started digging deeper into the Graves carbine, and came across another project of his; a 1911 hydraulic damper/spring/buffer system.

TEXAS REVOLVER produced damper motors include GRAVES 1911 V MAX and .460 ROWLAND V2 systems.

Damper motor type recoil systems were pioneered in the GRAVES G1 COMBAT carbine. This technology was further developed and applied to Browning tilt action type handguns. This technology has proven to be a key factor in improving the overall operation of several Browning type handguns, and increasing the power level of the most powerful Browning type handguns.

Damper

1911 based handguns can use integrated motion control and energy absorption / dumper, or damper mechanism or damper motor in addition to a spring. A damper is used to control spring motion by absorbing energy from the spring. The damper may also reject energy to a system other than the spring. A damper may be similar to an automotive shock absorber.

We're taught that In the case of fluid or gas type dampers the complexity and impracticalities have prevented practicality. Although the concept of a semi-automatic handgun fluid or gas damper is well-know within the art, most of what is known about doing it has historically been an exercise in "why it cannot be done". Most concepts include constant pressurized gas or liquid confinement and there was not a single successful 1911 based gas damper system to give as a specific example until 2019.

The first practical fluid or gas damper for 1911 based handguns was made by Thomas A. Graves in 2019 and applied to a CZ 75 / 85 series handgun. This new technology can work with open air an is not necessarily dependent on mechanical seals or continuous fluid confinement. The characteristics of the new technology have allowed it to be effectively applied to multiple 1911 based handguns as integrated componentry.

Damper motor equipped handguns generally completely negate the use of traditional "buffers" without consumable parts and with characteristically increased energy rejection and decreased impact forces. Damper motor equipped handguns may also completely negate the use of "multiple spring type assemblies" because they can have increased resistance or multiple stages of increased resistance to rearward slide travel without an equivalent and corresponding decrease in slide dwell duration, and increase in forward slide velocity.

The Graves damper motor is a radical departure in 1911 based handgun technologies. In certain applications this technology's increased effectiveness and practicality is unmatched. The damper motor is now a pivotal technological factor in maximizing performance and power levels in 1911 based handguns.

And on further inspection of that carbine, I have to appreciate the autistic amount of milling & machining; because holy shit.

 

[Seafarer]

Here are some images of one of the early Owen gun prototypes, the interesting thing, apart from the magazine being loaded to the side instead of the iconic top-loading configuration, is that it was chambered in .32 ACP.

I always found it weird that there were so few SMG’s chambered in .32, apart from the Skorpion and a few experimental Thompson models, considering how popular the .32 cartridge was, especially in Europe.

I suppose some of that can be blamed on the .32’s semi-rimmed cartridge, which seems to have been one of the reasons for the cartridge dying out when double-stack mags became the standard for pistols. Part of it may also have been that militaries considered it underpowered in a SMG (although they certainly believed it to be fine in pistols). Even if the military didn’t want it, a SMG in .32 could have been an interesting weapons for law enforcement of the time.

 

[TerminalTryHard]

New 556 AK from Poland that takes AR mags.

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

Tandem 180s, aka American 360, aka "Perfect Circle", aka ______ .

I could keep going lol.

 

[AGPinochet]

yooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I have dreamed of such a thing but never thought it possible.

 

[HumptiDouji]

(although the actual logistics of this baffles me because DOD is going whole hog on the Sig 6.8 so I don't get the point of buying Poly cased 7.62.)

Makes you wonder just how sold they are on the NGSW.

Not an actual firearm but it made me lol
View attachment 4681038
this is totally a great idea and isn’t going to get you killed at all, trust me.

These must have been the center of at least a few incidents in their day.

I started digging deeper into the Graves carbine, and came across another project of his; a 1911 hydraulic damper/spring/buffer system.

TEXAS REVOLVER produced damper motors include GRAVES 1911 V MAX and .460 ROWLAND V2 systems.
View attachment 4691614

View attachment 4691613

Interesting.

And on further inspection of that carbine, I have to appreciate the autistic amount of milling & machining; because holy shit.
View attachment 4691677View attachment 4691678View attachment 4691686

Sweet Jesus is that fucking ugly. I'm just imagining dirt and dust slowly gathering in all those cuts with use over time, or the particularly uncomfortable carry handle. Probably adds a lot to the price.

 

[Fount of BadSpeak]

What's your guys go to 9mm range ammo, in terms of reliability, velocity, and price? I used to almost exclusively shoot Barnaul and LVE manufacture because it was loaded hot, was cleaner than many brass cased offerings, and was cheap, but I'm getting low after the Russian import bans and need a new range ammo. Most of what I've seen shows Sellier and Bellot to have the best balance of velocity, price, and reliability, but I haven't actually found any recent chrono tests of their range ammo so I am still a little hesitant.

Any input?

 

[WelperHelper99]

What's your guys go to 9mm range ammo, in terms of reliability, velocity, and price? I used to almost exclusively shoot Barnaul and LVE manufacture because it was loaded hot, was cleaner than many brass cased offerings, and was cheap, but I'm getting low after the Russian import bans and need a new range ammo. Most of what I've seen shows Sellier and Bellot to have the best balance of velocity, price, and reliability, but I haven't actually found any recent chrono tests of their range ammo so I am still a little hesitant.

Any input?

I don't own a 9mm, my father does however, a Ruger P series, and that puppy eats literally anything. We've fed it Winchester steel case, Winchester white box, a few other brands, the thing doesn't care. I don't order online, it's just what's available in store. White box works alright.

Here are some images of one of the early Owen gun prototypes, the interesting thing, apart from the magazine being loaded to the side instead of the iconic top-loading configuration, is that it was chambered in .32 ACP.
View attachment 4694333View attachment 4694334View attachment 4694340
I always found it weird that there were so few SMG’s chambered in .32, apart from the Skorpion and a few experimental Thompson models, considering how popular the .32 cartridge was, especially in Europe.

I suppose some of that can be blamed on the .32’s semi-rimmed cartridge, which seems to have been one of the reasons for the cartridge dying out when double-stack mags became the standard for pistols. Part of it may also have been that militaries considered it underpowered in a SMG (although they certainly believed it to be fine in pistols). Even if the military didn’t want it, a SMG in .32 could have been an interesting weapons for law enforcement of the time.

I want the Owen and 32 acp back. Get me a full sized Ruby style pistol in 32, and a modern Owen, with rails for optics, a top mount mag, multiple calibers- maybe 38 special like I've been talking about- and a 16 inch barrel to get past legal restrictions. 32 works great btw, it's kill count in ww1 alone can't be understated. Part of why I want a Tomcat in the future.

 

[Badungus Kabungus]

What's your guys go to 9mm range ammo, in terms of reliability, velocity, and price? I used to almost exclusively shoot Barnaul and LVE manufacture because it was loaded hot, was cleaner than many brass cased offerings, and was cheap, but I'm getting low after the Russian import bans and need a new range ammo. Most of what I've seen shows Sellier and Bellot to have the best balance of velocity, price, and reliability, but I haven't actually found any recent chrono tests of their range ammo so I am still a little hesitant.

Any input?

If not shooting Russian steel case, I like Fiocchi. It's nice and consistent.

 

[Seafarer]

and a modern Owen, with rails for optics,

How tf would that work? Lol

 

[WelperHelper99]

How tf would that work? Lol

Eh offset it on a mount, for the optics/rails