Money - Autism Extreme - Does Money mean anything

[mlanguishi]

I've been thinking. Does money mean anything? It means what we say it does as society, but it can be rest to 0 at will.

M2 money is simply a few bits of a computer that is abscised to on account, to another. When you buy something, the product is moved, then the money moves behinds the scene during an Automatic Cleaning House system that is basically 'x account y and plus y to z account) in batches overnight. Usually banks do these account transfers at 3am local time.

Is this any different in the end than something like WOW gold transfers in game?

Does money mean really anymore than a like on a post? If you subtracted a gained (in theory) of a like, would that be about the same?

 

[hl2_linux]

 

[We Are The Witches]

What do you mean by "mean"? Odd question, but so is yours.

As you know it's a practical tool used for the exchange of goods/services/whatever. That's what it is, but tangentially to that it can have indirect effects, such as: people perceiving you in a different way if you have lots/lack of it, as an example.

You can hypothetically create your own society and designate something as a (valid) currency/money, or in a game like WOW as you say, so does it mean anything? It means that you have a tool to now buy your favourite armor or whatever you buy in WOW.

And that money cannot be used in a different game/country/society unless you agree with the other party that the exchange is valid, and how that exchange is balanced because you have value that backs it up.

Do chairs mean anything?

 

[mlanguishi]

What do you mean by "mean"? Odd question, but so is yours.

As you know it's a practical tool used for the exchange of goods/services/whatever. That's what it is, but tangentially to that it can have indirect effects, such as: people perceiving you in a different way if you have lots/lack of it, as an example.

You can hypothetically create your own society and designate something as a (valid) currency/money, or in a game like WOW as you say, so does it mean anything? It means that you have a tool to now buy your favourite armor or whatever you buy in WOW.

And that money cannot be used in a different game/country/society unless you agree with the other party that the exchange is valid, and how that exchange is balanced because you have value that backs it up.

Do chairs mean anything?

That is my point, mostly. It makes the weak powerful, just give some doofus a million bucks, didn't earn, just transfer.

I know in general it's a mean of exchange and a mean of wealth. It's just odd to me that someone can just get it at a whim. It's not earned value. That's what money is. A chair is a solid thing, it can be sat on and moved around. Money is just a digit in a computer.

"cash" in the bank can be inflated away into vapor. Or the bank can just go 'nope it's gone'. But people will kill, die and do anything over it. To me, it's a moderated form on insanity.

 

[Bloitzhole]

That is my point, mostly. It makes the weak powerful, just give some doofus a million bucks, didn't earn, just transfer.

I know in general it's a mean of exchange and a mean of wealth. It's just odd to me that someone can just get it at a whim. It's not earned value. That's what money is. A chair is a solid thing, it can be sat on and moved around. Money is just a digit in a computer.

"cash" in the bank can be inflated away into vapor. Or the bank can just go 'nope it's gone'. But people will kill, die and do anything over it. To me, it's a moderated form on insanity.

I agree with your point, but I feel it is helpful and necessary to keep in mind that money does not only represent a current wealth, but a variety of future potentials, the exact shape of which hinges on an individual's priorities.
Say I earn money specifically to buy that one coffee table that I want for the living room - before any transaction has ever occurred, that money now represents not only wealth as an abstract concept, but the potential of what will be a very solid piece of furniture. I feel it is not that people will kill for money in and of itself, it is that they are willing to kill for a potential that money can realize.

 

[mlanguishi]

I agree with your point, but I feel it is helpful and necessary to keep in mind that money does not only represent a current wealth, but a variety of future potentials, the exact shape of which hinges on an individual's priorities. Say I earn money specifically to buy that one coffee table that I want for the living room - before any transaction has occurred, that money represents not only wealth as an abstract concept, but the potential of what will be a very solid piece of furniture. I feel it is not that people will kill for money, it is that they are willing to kill for a potential that money can realize.

It's kinda like that, I guess. Money is an abstract measure of value of 'stuff', but it's totally arbitrary as well, It's transferable, which is sometimes good in concept but you can give it to someone that doesn't earn it and doesn't care as well.

It's flawed, but I don't know of any other way. The Soviet Communists came in and say 'money is fake' and then ended up with the NEP and Rubles again. We're stuck with it in this world.

ETA: It irritates me, but I think I can understand the early Soviet thinking that money itself is 'too liquid' in a way.

ETA2: and in the end, would a total Fight Club style rewrite really make a difference? What's debt when it gets extreme and has to be written off down the road? A promise you'll produce later to pay back yesterday? If it was all julibilee-style erased, would anything really change? Would people produce less overall?

 

[We Are The Witches]

That is my point, mostly. It makes the weak powerful, just give some doofus a million bucks, didn't earn, just transfer.

I know in general it's a mean of exchange and a mean of wealth. It's just odd to me that someone can just get it at a whim. It's not earned value. That's what money is. A chair is a solid thing, it can be sat on and moved around. Money is just a digit in a computer.

Part of that is due to the stupidity of people.

E.g: the morons that give thousands of dollars to e-thots for literally existing (in this case caused by retardation and lust); and if money didn't exist, they'd go over and gift her with whatever goods they have, if they didn't have goods, they'd serve her.
Because they're idiots.

And they're free to be pathetic idiots.

---

Because of the nature of money (an agreed substitute of something with value) it will always be abstract. Why would X$ be the worth of my two cows? Because at that point in time we're saying that that's what they're worth, now it's your move if you want to buy them, keep your money or invest in something else (e.g: gold). How else are you going to buy my two cows?

 

[JohnnyG]

If it was all julibilee-style erased, would anything really change? Would people produce less overall?

They'd certainly lend less overall. One man's debt is another man's asset.

Maybe wiping out credit card debt wipes out Visa and MasterCard shareholders and is a net benefit to the people who racked up 20k in CC debt...maybe they can never buy anything on credit again.

Maybe people lending to "risk free" governments that can't stop themselves from buying votes are idiots, and maybe wiping out grandma's bond portfolio is worth the US Gov not being able to overspend or at least having to pay 25% interest to do so.

Maybe banks and credit unions blowing up over vaporized mortgages mean houses have to be purchased with cash, or mortgage rates are 20% permanently. Maybe that locks renters out, or maybe it rewards everyone with a 105% mortgage, rapes anyone who paid off their house, and brings prices back down to reality.

 

[mlanguishi]

They'd certainly lend less overall. One man's debt is another man's asset.

Maybe wiping out credit card debt wipes out Visa and MasterCard shareholders and is a net benefit to the people who racked up 20k in CC debt...maybe they can never buy anything on credit again.

Maybe people lending to "risk free" governments that can't stop themselves from buying votes are idiots, and maybe wiping out grandma's bond portfolio is worth the US Gov not being able to overspend or at least having to pay 25% interest to do so.

Maybe banks and credit unions blowing up over vaporized mortgages mean houses have to be purchased with cash, or mortgage rates are 20% permanently. Maybe that locks renters out, or maybe it rewards everyone with a 105% mortgage, rapes anyone who paid off their house, and brings prices back down to reality.

So all your maybes are pretty much how it is tending now with the current system except for the ultra-wealthy, the federal spending where month or so it's another Trillion bucks?

I think a universal fiat tossup into the air at this rate might happen, and then the flowers from it will come down on those who have the best military. I used to think only the banks created money with lending and checking systems. It sure isn't that way now.

 

[JohnnyG]

So all your maybes are pretty much how it is tending now with the current system except for the ultra-wealthy, the federal spending where month or so it's another Trillion bucks?

I think a universal fiat tossup into the air at this rate might happen, and then the flowers from it will come down on those who have the best military. I used to think only the banks created money with lending and checking systems. It sure isn't that way now.

There's no doubt that individual and government debt is at insane levels. But what I'm saying is that on the other end of that are assets that currently continue to pay back their interest and principal. A jubilee wipes out debt, and the corresponding savings/investment. In some cases the latter may be predatory lenders, while in others it would be grandma's retirement.

Banks do create money via debt issuance, specifically by turning the dollar you deposit today into a 30 year mortgage. Government encourages this in a number of ways (setting the target overnight rate, regulating reserve ratios, etc). And US government debt is subsidized in part by the Globalist American Empire's military, which is arguably undeserved and enabling an addiction.

But a simple debt jubilee will reward a whole lot of irresponsible people, while wiping out a whole lot of those who did the right thing. So I don't think it's a straightforward fix.

 

[mlanguishi]

There's no doubt that individual and government debt is at insane levels. But what I'm saying is that on the other end of that are assets that currently continue to pay back their interest and principal. A jubilee wipes out debt, and the corresponding savings/investment. In some cases the latter may be predatory lenders, while in others it would be grandma's retirement.

Banks do create money via debt issuance, specifically by turning the dollar you deposit today into a 30 year mortgage. Government encourages this in a number of ways (setting the target overnight rate, regulating reserve ratios, etc). And US government debt is subsidized in part by the Globalist American Empire's military, which is arguably undeserved and enabling an addiction.

But a simple debt jubilee will reward a whole lot of irresponsible people, while wiping out a whole lot of those who did the right thing. So I don't think it's a straightforward fix.

I think maybe a 10 year jubilee might work domestically. The problem is it would have to be for all or nothing. Companies and individuals already have a 10 year timer, sometimes less, for bankruptcy.

Another option I brought up is the idea of a full 10 or 100 to 1 buyback like Israel did with Shekels so we wouldn't have to deal with gigantic numbers so much. A devaluation or so. Someone on here told me the direct term for trading in 10 x to 1 y value, but I forget it.

 

[JohnnyG]

I think maybe a 10 year jubilee might work domestically. The problem is it would have to be for all or nothing. Companies and individuals already have a 10 year timer, sometimes less, for bankruptcy.

Another option I brought up is the idea of a full 10 or 100 to 1 buyback like Israel did with Shekels so we wouldn't have to deal with gigantic numbers so much. A devaluation or so. Someone on here told me the direct term for trading in 10 x to 1 y value, but I forget it.

Personal bankruptcy is generally 7 years. But that's more about how long you're on record as having walked away from your debts, and unable to borrow again. What would a 10 year jubilee entail? Telling everyone their debts will go away every 10 years? Ok, now there will be no mortgages, business loans, or government notes/bonds with terms longer than that.

And as you get closer to the jubilee, revolving debt (credit cards), car notes, and all kinds of other debt are going to see shortened terms and probably extremely high interest rates, with essentially no lending happening just before the cutoff.

As for the buyback, of course you can cut off or add a zero to the currency, it just won't change anything. It's like deciding to quote your salary in pennies instead of dollars...sure you get a bigger number, but it applies to everything. In your example, your debt is 1/10th as much, but so are your income and home value.

 

[mlanguishi]

Personal bankruptcy is generally 7 years. But that's more about how long you're on record as having walked away from your debts, and unable to borrow again. What would a 10 year jubilee entail? Telling everyone their debts will go away every 10 years? Ok, now there will be no mortgages, business loans, or government notes/bonds with terms longer than that.

And as you get closer to the jubilee, revolving debt (credit cards), car notes, and all kinds of other debt are going to see shortened terms and probably extremely high interest rates, with essentially no lending happening just before the cutoff.

As for the buyback, of course you can cut off or add a zero to the currency, it just won't change anything. It's like deciding to quote your salary in pennies instead of dollars...sure you get a bigger number, but it applies to everything. In your example, your debt is 1/10th as much, but so are your income and home value.

Right, I know that currency buyback would only be a math thing. It would screw up stuff just so we don't have to talk about trillions, and eventually quadrillions where a few billions are a rounding error. My thought is when numbers get huge, the psychological impact goes out the window and a trillion and a billion and a nonillion dollars end up blurring to the average person.

I still wonder though, if all the records went away and it all reset, would it really change much day to day?

 

[Aljam]

Money is a spook. A currency backed by debt will only produce debt in return.