My Clients, The Liars - It’s not just that my clients lie to me a lot, which will only hurt them — it’s that they’re really, really bad at it.


Cross-post from Singal-Minded

My essay on the many ways my clients ineffectually lie to me is now unlocked for everyone. -

Yassine Meskhout

My job as a public defender puts me in a weird place. I am my clients’ zealous advocate, but I’m not their marionette. I don’t just roll into court to parrot whatever my clients tell me — I make sure I’m not re-shoveling bullshit. So for my sake and theirs, I do my homework. I corroborate. I investigate.

A significant portion of my job ironically mirrors that of a police detective. Every case I get requires me to deploy a microscope and retrace the cops’ steps to see if they fucked up somehow (spoiler: they haven’t). Sometimes I go beyond what the cops did to collect my own evidence and track down my own witnesses.
All this puts some of my clients of the guilty persuasion in a bind. Sure, they don’t want me sitting on my ass doing nothing for their case, but they also can’t have me snooping around on my own too much. . . because who knows what I might find? So they take steps to surreptitiously install guardrails around my scrutiny, hoping I won’t notice.

You might wonder why any chicanery from my clients is warranted. After all, am I not professionally obligated to strictly maintain client confidentiality? It’s true, a client can show me where they buried their dozen murder victims and I wouldn’t be allowed to tell a soul, even if an innocent person is sitting in prison for their crimes. Part of my clients’ clammed-up demeanors rests on a deluded notion that I won’t fight as hard for their cases unless I am infatuated by their innocence. Perhaps they don’t realize that representing the guilty is the overwhelmingly banal reality of my job.1
There is a kernel of an exception that is almost not worth mentioning. The Rules of Professional Conduct 3.3 obligates me with the duty of candor. I am not allowed to present evidence that I “know” is false, which encompasses witness testimony. Some jurisdictions make exceptions to this rule for defendants testifying in their criminal trial (correctly, IMO) but not all. So assuming that a client truthfully confesses to me, assuming we go to trial, assuming they decide to testify, and assuming I “know” they’re going to lie, then yes, this could indeed spawn a very awkward situation where I’m forced to withdraw in the middle of proceedings.
More importantly, it’s myopic to forget that judges, prosecutors, and jurors want to see proof, not just emphatic assurances on the matter.

But clients still lie to me — exclusively to their own detriment.

***

Marcel was not allowed to possess a firearm. And yet mysteriously, when the police arrested him — the details are way too complicated to explain, even by my standards — in his sister’s vehicle, they found a pistol under the passenger seat.

“The gun is not mine. I don’t even like guns. I’m actually scared of guns.” He told me this through the jail plexiglass as I flipped through his remarkable résumé of gun-related crimes. Marcel spent our entire first meeting proselytizing his innocence to me. Over the next half hour he went on a genealogy world tour, swearing up and down on the lives of various immediate and extended members of his family that he never ever ever touched guns.

I was confused why he perseverated so much, but I just nodded along as part of my standard early precarious effort to build rapport with a new (and likely volatile) client. What he was telling me wasn’t completely implausible — sometimes people are indeed caught with contraband that isn’t theirs — but there was nothing I could do with his information at that early stage. Maybe he thought if he could win me over as a convert, I’d then ask for the case to be dismissed on the “he says it’s not his” precedent.

Weeks later, I got the first batch of discovery. I perused the photographs that documented the meticulous search of his sister’s car. I saw the pistol glistening beneath the camera flash, nestled among some CDs and a layer of Cheetos crumbs. And on the pistol itself, a sight to behold: to this day the clearest, most legible, most unobstructed fingerprints I have ever seen in my legal life. If you looked closely enough, the whorls spelled out his name and Social Security number.

Public defenders are entitled to ask the court for money to pay for private investigators, digital forensic specialists, fingerprint examiners, or whatever else is needed to ensure a defendant in a criminal case is provided with his constitutionally guaranteed legal bulwark. The photographed prints here were so apparent that an examiner could easily rely on the photos alone to make a comparison.

Marcel had earned himself some trolling from me. I went back to see him at the jail, faked as much enthusiasm as I could muster, and declared, “Good news! They found fingerprints on the gun!” He stared at me stunned and confused, so I continued.

“Well, when we first met, you told me that you never touched the gun,” I reminded him with an encouraging smile. “Obviously you wouldn’t lie to your own lawyer, and so what I can do is get a fingerprint expert to come to the jail, take your prints, then do a comparison on the gun itself. Since you never touched the gun, the prints won’t be a match! This whole case will get dismissed, and we can put all this behind you!”2
I’m told I put on a good poker face.

He was still reeling but realized I was waiting for a response. “You. . . don’t need to do that,” he muttered. I had the confirmation I was looking for, but I pressed him while maintaining the facade of earnest congeniality.

“But why not?” I sang in staccato, smile wide. “You told me. That. You. Never. Touch any guns.”

Turned out Marcel might have accidentally touched the gun. So his prints could be on it. I had made my point, so I dropped the act. I explained to Marcel that the only thing lying to me accomplishes is to slow things down and worsen his own prospects — how could I pursue any potentially helpful leads for his defense when I couldn’t be sure I wasn’t about to bumble into an incriminating revelation?

Marcel nodded sagely and claimed to understand, but he went on to lie to me many more times over the next two years that I remained his attorney. Marcel has and will spend the majority of his adult life in prison — not necessarily because he lied to me but that certainly didn’t help.

***

My first meeting with Kyle was useless. He insisted throughout that it wasn’t him, that he wasn’t even there. Now, personally speaking, if several witnesses claimed to have seen someone who looks like me, in my car, with my girlfriend in the front seat, commit a drive-by shooting in broad daylight, I would summon slightly more curiosity about who this apparent doppelganger might be. But Kyle gave me no leads, pantomiming an internal agony about not wanting to be a snitch, clutching at his stomach as if the mere thought was physically unbearable.

His tune eventually changed. “I need you to tell the prosecutor who was driving my car,” he said.“His name is Richie Bottoms.” If the name hadn’t given it away, I already knew where this was going,3
There was no Richie Bottoms.
and I was excited for the coming entertainment. I pretended to be enthused by his revelation, and let Kyle know that I had a “really great” investigator who’s phenomenal at tracking “anyone” down — even the elusive Dick Bottoms.

Based on his reaction, that wasn’t the response Kyle expected; another illustration of a myopic theory of mind (not uncommon among the interpersonally inept) incapable of simulating anything but affirmation. He tensed up momentarily, but realized that he’d already committed himself to acting out a demeanor congruent with the “innocent client responds to helpful attorney” fantasy. Yet the only excuse he could muster up in the moment was that Richie wouldn’t be found because he fled to Los Angeles.

I maintained what must have been an obnoxious level of optimism, explaining how “perfect” that was because my investigator “knew lots of people” there. My job affords me few if any moments of joy, and so forgive me if I overindulged in Kyle’s vexation. I’ll spare you a full accounting of the myriad reasons he gave why tracking down Sir Bottoms was a lost cause. Suffice to say that in addition to being out of state, Richie had maybe fled the country; also, Richie happens to look almost identical to Kyle, but also we might not even know his real name since he went by “Arby,” and no one had his phone number, et cetera. . .

Even when we moved on to other topics, Kyle couldn’t let it go, interrupting whatever we were talking about to repeat warnings about how tracking down Richie was going to be a total waste of time for my investigator and me. He was palpably angry, but had no viable outlet for his frustration, and so he just stewed, stuck with his lie. I kept my poker face. It’s a stark contrast to my factually innocent clients, who cannot help but drown me with leads to pursue in the hopes that any are helpful.

The whole thing reminded me of Carl Sagan’s parable of the dragon in his garage as a critique of certain unprovable religious beliefs. Can I see the dragon? No, it’s invisible. Can I detect its fire’s thermal image? No, the fire is heatless. Can I find Dick in Los Angeles? No, because now he fled the country.

There’s always some excuse — there’s always some eject button allowing my defendants to evade specific evidence demands. No matter how ridiculous.

***

It’s banal for my clients to deny the accusations, but a special breed takes denial to the next level by waging total jihad against their accusers. It’s a sort of a reverse counterpart to the Narcissist’s Prayer:

If they claim I was driving during the hit-and-run, they’re lying.

And if they’re liars, then they exaggerated their injuries.

And they’re exaggerating because they’re after an insurance payday.

And we know they’re after a payday because they sued their dry cleaners in 1993.

And they’re framing me to get money, which is how we know they’re lying.

In these clients’ telling, nothing is their fault. The random bystanders who randomly drew the unlucky witness card become a convenient scapegoat. Yet these clients are so myopically overwhelmed by the desire to bounce the rubble on a witness’s credibility, they don’t notice how implausible their story becomes with each new clause they tape onto their fabulist’s scrapbook.4
For example, Kyle asked if it was possible to present self-defense evidence on behalf of “Richie Bottoms,” just in case.

Sometimes clients are self-aware enough to couch their denials in innuendo. Ivan, who was accused of [redacted], was waging the same Total War approach against Cindy, a social worker at the homeless shelter where Ivan regularly stayed. Cindy was a dangerous witness — an uninvolved, respected professional who severely undercut Ivan’s alibi defense about having never left the shelter to go on his [redacted] spree.

In yet another of our jail rendezvous, Ivan expounded at length about how Cindy’s testimony was invalid because, as a social worker, she would be violating HIPAA.5
Does this sound familiar to anyone?
The glaze over my eyes must have gotten too obvious for me to hide, so he switched tack, shuffled through his jail-sanctioned filing system (read: pile), and slid a flyer across the table about trash cleanup day at the shelter, with a smiling cartoon trash can picking up a baby garbage bag while announcing “Pick up a little trash, talk a little trash.” It’s cute, but what the fuck was I supposed to be looking at? Ivan stared at me grinning and expectant, but his demeanor quickly turned into disappointment at my ongoing silence. He snatched the flyer out of my hand and jammed his finger at the “talk a little trash” clause. “This!” he shouted, and then just stared at me again. I looked at the words that meant so much to him and nothing to me and just said, “Huh?”

His disappointment transmogrified into astonished anger. “Do I have to fucking spell it out for you?” he screamed. “I thought you were the lawyer here!” We had been ping-ponging across various aspects of his case for the last hour or so and I gave up on any posturing and reiterated my ignorance at the significance of the cartoon flyer. Ivan snapped, “Cindy is encouraging people to trash talk!” For, you see, she wrote the flyer. “I’m trying to show you that she’s a fucking punk! And a liar!”

I immediately understood why Ivan was so attached to remaining within the realm of innuendo. Because as soon as he gave his claim some body (“We should infer lack of credibility from individuals when they author flyers that include garbage-related puns”), he knew how much of a dumbass he would sound like out loud.

Ivan moved on from the flyer, and instead asked how to disqualify a witness “for being a liar.” I tell him that’s not a thing,6
During the editing process, Jesse was skeptical of this. “Wait,” he asked me in a Google Doc comment, “there’s NO way for one side to prove to a judge that a witness is so untrustworthy the jurors/judge shouldn’t consider their testimony?” Correct. The closest rule is disqualifying a witness as incompetent, either for being too young, severely mentally ill or mentally retarded, or too intoxicated (on the witness stand!). Credibility is up to the judge/jury to decide, and if a witness has a history of lying, then it makes for a very easy credibility impeachment. Theoretically, in extremely rare circumstances, a judge could strike the testimony of a witness or find them in contempt, but they’d have to be seriously flagrant about their lying under oath. I have never heard of this happening.
which sent him into a further rage. “I need you to be on my side here but all I hear from you is ‘NO.’ Why are you working for the prosecutors?”

***

The manipulation attempts we just cataloged were comically inept, and fell apart with far less effort than it took to create them. Slightly more polished versions of these charades are regularly deployed within the Discourse™ but they’re equally hollow and just as pathetic. So those are some of my clients — individuals who cannot rise to the level of your average internet troll.
 
I'm skeptical that people genuinely "dunno" how their victims feels. I think it's more likely they don't care. It's not their problem and they're not going to waste time thinking about it.
I might posit that their own "cognition" is a fire hose of emotions, impulses, thoughts--just a totally uncontrolled stream of shit with occasional recognizable items--that trying to parse out any individual thought in the head of another person is nothing more than a guess, like if you were flipping through a hundred channels and watching two seconds per channel and you had to say what the plot of a show was on one channel.
 
I might posit that their own "cognition" is a fire hose of emotions, impulses, thoughts--just a totally uncontrolled stream of shit with occasional recognizable items--that trying to parse out any individual thought in the head of another person is nothing more than a guess, like if you were flipping through a hundred channels and watching two seconds per channel and you had to say what the plot of a show was on one channel.

You're giving them too much credit. They hear a bunch of loud noise that they try to drown out with shitty loud music and drugs. Why do you think they're always so loud? They can barely hear themselves talk.
 
People constantly talk about convicts and IQ, given the simple fact the majority of convicts are niggers that alone suggests the IQ does not match the general populace. IMHO retarded criminals go to state prison, some of federal inmates are smarter than the average monkey as federal inmates tend to be convicted of more elaborate crime things that require a hierarchy, planning, technical aptitude. A large drug wholesale operation for instance. I am fucking blown away a convict, with several prior felony convictions will still not only talk to the police but, genuinely believe if he tells a good enough story that will absolve him. The biggest concern of mine isn't who or what has the lowest IQ, it's that society does not allow us to even acknowledge this. If you made a study in 2024, peer reviewed, %100 double blind, no way in fucking hell that could be manipulated and it showed what we all know about regarding race and IQ you would be shunned immediately. You'd be called a racist, then a nazi then accused of faking scientific results. The problem isn't the criminals it's society putting up with their bullshit.
 
I actually did find myself using they/them pronouns
In future, do what we always did in the past: use "he or she" when the sex of the subject is unknown. This is what we did in the English language for hundreds of years. It works, it makes logical and grammatical sense, and it cannot be easily misused by any of the LGBPedo brigade.
 
I'm skeptical that people genuinely "dunno" how their victims feels. I think it's more likely they don't care. It's not their problem and they're not going to waste time thinking about it.
It's both. So when people compare people's thought patterns to a "processor" they also mean that it also prioritizes the same, via shit like hierarchy of needs and shit.

Essentially they are so stupid that they cannot think ahead and they're too busy thinking of themselves to think of everyone else, and it's not that they can if you try. They literally can't. Because they're stupid.

Don't tell the psychopaths there's massive correlation between having low IQ and antisocial personality traits by the way.
 
People constantly talk about convicts and IQ, given the simple fact the majority of convicts are niggers that alone suggests the IQ does not match the general populace. IMHO retarded criminals go to state prison, some of federal inmates are smarter than the average monkey as federal inmates tend to be convicted of more elaborate crime things that require a hierarchy, planning, technical aptitude. A large drug wholesale operation for instance. I am fucking blown away a convict, with several prior felony convictions will still not only talk to the police but, genuinely believe if he tells a good enough story that will absolve him. The biggest concern of mine isn't who or what has the lowest IQ, it's that society does not allow us to even acknowledge this. If you made a study in 2024, peer reviewed, %100 double blind, no way in fucking hell that could be manipulated and it showed what we all know about regarding race and IQ you would be shunned immediately. You'd be called a racist, then a nazi then accused of faking scientific results. The problem isn't the criminals it's society putting up with their bullshit.
Of course. Because that would knock a hole in the massive edifice of 'equality' they've spent years building up. Which is a huge scam, when you get down to it.

Equality in the eyes of the law was what it was supposed to be, moving away from bullshit like high and low justice. Sadly, that's fallen by the wayside as we've all seen, but the whole 'all people are equal and you're a racist if you don't believe it' has persisted.
 
And yet this kind of guy (this reads like written by a yass kween "snarky" woman but it's a shitskin man) has no problem sharing a "lmao niggers" story with his woke audience.
note the names he chose for his clients:
>marcel (french/white)
>ivan (russian/white)
>kyle (english/white)

these are obviously not real names, because as an attorney he is not allowed to disclose and disparage real clients case details in public.
it's no accident that he went out of his way to choose three white names for his negative examples instead of telling these stories about tyrone, ahmed and juan.
 
I worked at a retail store (my weird boss loved black men…it was all asian girls and then the boss hired a pet n word). On his very first day the kid stole a customer’s iPhone. Of course the customer had tracking on his phone, and the store had security cameras so it was easy to figure it out.

???

It really was like a chimp seeing a banana and stealing it cos he had no foresight or ability to delay gratification.

That is all.

I agree the immigrants from Nigeria etc are normal. It’s just something about these hood ones.
 
I agree the immigrants from Nigeria etc are normal. It’s just something about these hood ones.
this view is the result of massive selection bias.
to make it through the US legal immigration system is a grueling process and filters out the overwhelming majority of people in countries like nigeria. the ones who make it through are the top 1% cream of the crop most capable people in the country, that's why burgers commonly say shit like "wow based african immigrants are nothing like our own niggers"

but spend a while living in nigeria, or just in a place that gets unfiltered mass immigration from nigeria (europe) and you'll quickly realize how skewed this view is. they're nogging it up exactly like burger niggers, even worse in some regards.
 
Hot take: American Blacks are what you get when a normal person is neglected their whole life.
Counterpoint: what about dem programs? All jokes aside, there are a lot of programs aimed at urban youth, there's programs like big brothers big sisters, etc. parental neglect plays a large role but they are not completely abandoned by society.
 
Counterpoint: what about dem programs? All jokes aside, there are a lot of programs aimed at urban youth, there's programs like big brothers big sisters, etc. parental neglect plays a large role but they are not completely abandoned by society.
They don't have to be abandoned by society, just neglected by family. Who did you spend 90% of your childhood with? Usually it's one or both parents, somebody raised you and taught you things. American black people have a 100% free range approach to raising their children, it seems.

Also don't forget that black culture has a crab bucket mentality. Black families and communities actively discourage each other from obtaining an education or better employment. You can't account for this deficit with "dem programs tho."
 
They don't have to be abandoned by society, just neglected by family. Who did you spend 90% of your childhood with? Usually it's one or both parents, somebody raised you and taught you things. American black people have a 100% free range approach to raising their children, it seems.

Also don't forget that black culture has a crab bucket mentality. Black families and communities actively discourage each other from obtaining an education or better employment. You can't account for this deficit with "dem programs tho."
I've spent too much fucking time around nigs, they openly joke about beating theirs kids and when they say "I'ma bout ta break a stick ova he azz" they actually mean "I plan on beating my child until the instrument I have chose fails". So many studies about how abusing your children physically and psychologically screws them up for life, makes them future prostitutes, violent low IQ sociopaths. Recently Harvard did a study on black children mental development and abuse it told exactly what we all know and then they quit right before they were about to publish something that would have been indefensible imperial knowledge nogs general method of raising kids is s terrible idea. They concluded the parental abuse or neglect was due to racism. That's right, despite welfare and 101 social services including free schools, free food it was all whiteys fault. I'm glad a Harvard diploma is worth nothing these days.
 
Of course. Because that would knock a hole in the massive edifice of 'equality' they've spent years building up. Which is a huge scam, when you get down to it.

Equality in the eyes of the law was what it was supposed to be, moving away from bullshit like high and low justice. Sadly, that's fallen by the wayside as we've all seen, but the whole 'all people are equal and you're a racist if you don't believe it' has persisted.

The idea that we can turn blacks into whites with the right techniques and programs is as old as the country. What's happened is it's gone from the belief of a few radicals to being the mainstream consensus, despite having objectively failed over and over.
 
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