Careercow Narcissa Wright / Cosmo Wright - Former speedrunner tumbling down

[No Face]

I don't see why doing steroids in Olympic sports is banned, anyone can use them

I don't see it as any different from:
a) using a rubber band and other things to hold it in place
b) getting a friend to hold the stick in place
c) marking the position with a marker

The other argument people are making is that it requires a tool used ahead of time to find the position with the stick. Would it be ok if instead of using the tool, someone did it by hand 100 times and then when they got it right they held it with something?

What if someone attempted this manually for long enough that they wore a notch in by accident?

I guess what I'm saying is that it is difficult to point to where the exact line is that defines a game-breaking modification. Its a moot point though because this will never be enforceable. I'm sure that this could be done in such a way where it would be undetectable even with a handcam.

 

[Luigi]

I guess what I'm saying is that it is difficult to point to where the exact line is that defines a game-breaking modification. Its a moot point though because this will never be enforceable. I'm sure that this could be done in such a way where it would be undetectable even with a handcam.

Karl Jobst does some interesting content about Goldeneye and some of his videos talk about some pretty retarded controller mods. Most of the time, people first complained about it, but after talking between themselves ended up accepting it. The only one I can vaguely remember that wasn't that well received was one where if you pressed the controller's mainboard or something a timer would run faster? Or something. But it's a clear difference between that and the other shit like duct-tapping two controllers.

The notch isn't that much of a physical modification, and it doesn't change how the game interacts with the inputs received. Maybe they will have favorable results, or maybe zelda speedrunners are more autistic than goldeneye ones and refuse change. Only time will tell

 

[No Face]

Karl Jobst does some interesting content about Goldeneye and some of his videos talk about some pretty exceptional controller mods. Most of the time, people first complained about it, but after talking between themselves ended up accepting it. The only one I can vaguely remember that wasn't that well received was one where if you pressed the controller's mainboard or something a timer would run faster? Or something. But it's a clear difference between that and the other shit like duct-tapping two controllers.

The notch isn't that much of a physical modification, and it doesn't change how the game interacts with the inputs received. Maybe they will have favorable results, or maybe zelda speedrunners are more autistic than goldeneye ones and refuse change. Only time will tell

Yeah I've seen his stuff and the video about some sort of advantage being gained by touching the main chip on the controller with your thumb. The obvious difference to me is that by touching the chip you are messing with the electrical signal to provide nonstandard behaviour.

If you are aware of other speed game rules that were made in similar situations, its hard to see why its even a controversy. Regardless of what happens it won't/can't be enforced. I can easily think of ways that you could get the guaranteed input without it being detectable by a handcam. It will not be possible to tell the difference between a "legitimate" run and one that uses an aid.

The best thing I can compare it to is the use of pause buffering to guarantee precise inputs, or how professional melee players will use modded gamecube controllers with shorter springs and sticks that have been oiled. They also use notches to help with things like wave dashing. Heres a site that sells them: https://multishine.tech/collections/product/smash-melee-gc-build/

 

[0 0]

Yeah I've seen his stuff and the video about some sort of advantage being gained by touching the main chip on the controller with your thumb. The obvious difference to me is that by touching the chip you are messing with the electrical signal to provide nonstandard behaviour.

If you are aware of other speed game rules that were made in similar situations, its hard to see why its even a controversy. Regardless of what happens it won't/can't be enforced. I can easily think of ways that you could get the guaranteed input without it being detectable by a handcam. It will not be possible to tell the difference between a "legitimate" run and one that uses an aid.

The best thing I can compare it to is the use of pause buffering to guarantee precise inputs, or how professional melee players will use modded gamecube controllers with shorter springs and sticks that have been oiled. They also use notches to help with things like wave dashing. Heres a site that sells them: https://multishine.tech/collections/product/smash-melee-gc-build/

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In competitive gaming, controllers which give an unfair advantage that aren't easily accessible or are otherwise modified from stock are banned. Still using Smash as an example, there was an attempt to make a fight stick for Smash which made certain inputs (although not impossible normally) easier. Despite being funded on a Kickstarter, interest in it dropped when tourneys dictated it was banned due to giving people who purchased it an unfair advantage over people who otherwise could not afford it or find one of their own. There's no reason speedrunning shouldn't follow suit since it's effectively identical to competitive gaming anyway: a bunch of turbonerds trying to determine who is the best at a game on equal footing.

Even in speedrunning, the purpose is not to gatekeep with "pay to win" strategies or necessitate obscure hardware modifications, otherwise they establish their own categories. Even so much as holding your controller upsidedown, using a second player to help you, or uncapping the framerate is considered an individual category.

 

[No Face]

The thing is though is that ANY % is generally defined by the absence of restrictions other than completing the game as fast as humanly possible. It would be more logical to make a "restricted ANY%" or "ANY% no ace" or something like that.

 

[Mike Stoklasa]

If people want to use modified controllers, fine. But you make that a separate category since there appears to be no problem making new categories. Look at this mess:

I don't even know what GSR and MST entail. What's another category for notched controllers? But beyond that, no; any percent, one hundred percent, all dungeons, glitchless... that all makes sense. You're playing the game. And then you get to wrong warp and ACE and okay, yeah it's really glitchy/not really playing the game but you are still playing the game. You pick up the controller and push the power button and do your thing.

But now we're modifying peripherals for ACE? How do we ensure standardization of notching? How do we ensure fairness of technique? Not all notches are made equal and some of these nerds are probably more mechanically inclined than others. How deep are the notches? What is the degree of the angle on the notches compared to the angles on the restrictor gate? How do these notches interface with the analog stick at a very minute level? How do the notches change the way the analog stick wears over time? If you file down harsh edges and spurs in your notches will that diminish the wear the analog stick receives? Will it allow for more fluid movement? Are you perhaps putting yourself at a disadvantage if you've made your notches the wrong way? Does a analog stick that has been damaged by the notching process impact viability? And that's not even getting into the way in which you are holding down the analog stick after notching has been done.

Again, look at all of those categories. Details are a big fucking deal to this community. How do you ensure uniformity and fairness of physical modifications to a system's peripheral? You simply cannot.

Therefore a "ACE notched" category might as well be added to alleviate the problem. It also leaves the insanely and impossibly difficult task of doing a "pure" ACE run as a challenge for runners to overcome. It seems like all other options will lead to an overall decrease in overall fairness and credibility. And any doubt over the fairness and credibility of the run or the community can and will cause serious damage. Break them into separate categories if you want notching to be acceptable. Otherwise in the words of my man Reggie:

 

[No Face]

No matter how you look at it, ANY% is entering its heat death. Keep it pure, let people do whatever they can to get the fastest time because people will move on to more interesting categories eventually. Its not like notched/unnotched is going to be a marked improvement anyways, so what's the fucking point in having 2 categories where given enough time the top times are going to be the same anyway? There is no gameplay or functional difference between notched vs un-notched, just an arbitrary distinction that is seemingly pushed by people who are salty about losing records. Perhaps if this was the only time people tried to do this I might see it differently but the same people complained that ACE shouldn't be allowed at all ~2 weeks ago. The same people who were trying their best to find an alternate meaning for the word "any".

Even before ACE, OOT any% was a boring fucking grind and its been that way since Cosmo's heyday. They've already required people to own obscure shit like iQue and out of region games/consoles, is that really more accessible than cutting a piece of plastic with an Xacto knife? Top tier speed running is already an exercise in autism so there really is no point in limiting it now.

 

[AlmightyMagichan]

I sure am glad I only play games occasionally for fun.

 

[Markorian]

No matter how you look at it, ANY% is entering its heat death. Keep it pure, let people do whatever they can to get the fastest time because people will move on to more interesting categories eventually. Its not like notched/unnotched is going to be a marked improvement anyways, so what's the fucking point in having 2 categories where given enough time the top times are going to be the same anyway? There is no gameplay or functional difference between notched vs un-notched, just an arbitrary distinction that is seemingly pushed by people who are salty about losing records. Perhaps if this was the only time people tried to do this I might see it differently but the same people complained that ACE shouldn't be allowed at all ~2 weeks ago. The same people who were trying their best to find an alternate meaning for the word "any".

Even before ACE, OOT any% was a boring fucking grind and its been that way since Cosmo's heyday. They've already required people to own obscure shit like iQue and out of region games/consoles, is that really more accessible than cutting a piece of plastic with an Xacto knife? Top tier speed running is already an exercise in autism so there really is no point in limiting it now.

I sort of get it. Notching your controller is essentially prep time that doesn't count against your run's actual time.

 

[Shugo]

They've already required people to own obscure shit like iQue and out of region games/consoles, is that really more accessible than cutting a piece of plastic with an Xacto knife?

The controversy isn't "accessibility" as accessibility has never been the point behind setting rules for speedrunning. If it were, importing a $500 iQue from China or a $100 Japanese n64 and $100 japanese cart wouldn't make for valid runs.

The controversy is that there has been a long standing rule of "no hardware modification" allowed in speedruns. Thus things such as cartridge tilting that allows you to skip past some objects in games like Ocarina of Time were outright not allowed in speedrunning.

 

[Grog]

I'm against notching controllers simply because N64 controllers aren't made anymore and I don't want the remaining ones being fucked with by wannabe world record holders.

 

[No Face]

I'm just saying, I think there is a discernible difference between modifying a piece of plastic vs a fundamental alteration to how the game is played.

Lets say the notch allowed you to make an input that would otherwise be impossible; its clear that this would be cheating. Closest comparison would be how TAS Mario presses left and right simultaneously which cannot be done on a dPAD. However the notch only makes an existing input easier to perform. If notches are made illegal, people will just find other methods to aid getting the input, and the whole damn thing will start again but this time people will be bitching about sharpie marks on the controller.

 

[The Fatriarchy]

A sharpie mark doesn't allow you to rest the stick in a precise position with ease. Nobody would be complaining.

 

[No Face]

What if you held the stick in the proper position then took a very very fine marker or used a knife to draw 3 lines that begin on the stick and ended on the plastic. This would significantly aid getting the input because it would allow you to align the mark on the stick with the mark on the plastic. Having multiple lines at multiple angles would increase the precision. It may not be 100% accurate but it could certainly improve your chances greatly. This is just an idea I came up with randomly without much thought involved but its obvious that speed runner autists will optimize it however they can.

Rules or not, speed running is about optimizing everything you can, and people will just find ways to optimize their techniques without violating the letter of the law.

By not allowing the notch what will end up happening is people will find different aids for reliably hitting the input and then they will keep their specific techniques to themselves. If someone discovers a non-notch method with an 85% chance and everyone else is using no notch or a method with a 60% chance, they will be at an advantage. At least with notches it puts everyone on an even playing field.

 

[The Fatriarchy]

"Allow cheating because then if everyone cheats it's equal!" is some SJW Special Olympics shit. The whole point is that the difference between those two is drawing on a controller doesn't make it any easier to perform a physical task. It gives you an idea of where to move, but it doesn't guarantee you the spot or consistency. Notching the controller to hold a position would be like turning on turbo for a button mashing section in a game. Why are you even arguing this if not because you want someone low-effort like present-day Cosmo to have a win?

 

[A Hot Potato]

Wow look at these faggots arguing and getting upset over playing a kid's game fast.

 

[awoo]

better than the umpteenth poster here coming in and saying how they are less autistic than speedrunners as if that were some kind of achievement

 

[No Face]

"Allow cheating because then if everyone cheats it's equal!" is some SJW Special Olympics shit. The whole point is that the difference between those two is drawing on a controller doesn't make it any easier to perform a physical task. It gives you an idea of where to move, but it doesn't guarantee you the spot or consistency. Notching the controller to hold a position would be like turning on turbo for a button mashing section in a game. Why are you even arguing this if not because you want someone low-effort like present-day Cosmo to have a win?

I can honestly say I do not give a flying fuck about cosmo. If I had to boil it down to the absolute basics, its just that I think modifying a piece of plastic is nbd and that its unenforceable either way.

 

[DiabeticSP]

Is Cosmo even trying to get the record back?

 

[You]

20 pages and nobody's pointed out the irony that Cosmo's path to success was to cut up and mutilate yet another thing.