New Terms of Service

Null

Null

Ooperator
kiwifarms.net
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Specifically directing this at @Vitriol and @AnOminous and anyone else proficient in law.

This is our current. It's a XenForo boilerplate.

<p>The providers ("we", "us", "our") of the service provided by this web site ("Service") are not responsible for any user-generated content and accounts ("Content"). Content submitted express the views of their author only.</p>

<p>You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws.</p>

<p>All Content you submit or upload may be reviewed by staff members. All Content you submit or upload may be sent to third-party verification services (including, but not limited to, spam prevention services). Do not submit any Content that you consider to be private or confidential.</p>

<p>We reserve the rights to remove or modify any Content submitted for any reason without explanation. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion. We reserve the right to take action against any account with the Service at any time.</p>

<p>You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.</p>

<p>These terms may be changed at any time without notice.</p>

<p>If you do not agree with these terms, please do not register or use this Service. If you wish to close your account, please contact us.</p>
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I'm curious about changing it. A lot of this outright does not apply to the forum's culture or rules and is misleading and worthless.

Specifically, I want to highlight that any post you make is your own and your own responsibility. I don't really give a shit what it is unless it hurts the website. I need a way to word this in Legalese and I need to know what I am legally obligated to give a shit about.

I normally wouldn't care but we've been given so much shit over "defamation" and have so many enemies right now I need to study up on what my rights are and what I can do to protect the site.
 
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You should keep it all as-is. Terms of service aren't "culture," they're terms of service, and something you may have to cite in court one day. "The providers ("we", "us", "our") of the service provided by this web site ("Service") are not responsible for any user-generated content and accounts ("Content"). Content submitted express the views of their author only" is absolutely the best way to put what you want to say. Everything in this document limits your liability, and that's the way you want it.
 
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yawning sneasel said:
Where's the servers big boy?
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Jurisdiction can also be claimed as a result of a site's TLD, the US claims legal jurisdiction over any website using .com, .org or .net no matter where it is hosted because Verisign operates the registry for them and is US-based. As far as I'm aware, ICANN and Verisign are going along with it but it's not been challenged in a court yet.

That said, I doubt Montserrat gives a flying fuck, they've got volcanoes to worry about.
 
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I'd just throw a normal disclaimer in here, but I really need to emphasize that I'm not giving legal advice to anyone about anything and am not licensed anywhere and even if I were, it would not be relevant. I haven't and won't do the due diligence for anything I say here to constitute legal advice plus anyone who takes legal advice over the Internet is fucking retarded.

However, I'll comment that there are no magic words you can put into a TOS that will make you any more immune to defamation liability from a site you run than you already are. Luckily, under U.S. law, that immunity is already damn near absolute under § 230 of the Communications Decency Act. The actual scope of the immunity and the mechanics of how you go about exercising it are pretty much unique to whatever jurisdiction you're defending them in, and that requires someone who can actually go into court on your behalf.

There's no way out of that bullshit, it's just something that exists, for 4chan, 8chan, or any other site. Some idiot can always sue you and they may be wasting your time, their time, and everyone's money, but that's just a possibility.

Now, you may think it's honorable to make sure everyone knows the dumb shit they say on the site is on them and they own their own posts and you're not going to go to bat if they fuck up and get sued, that's up to you. Perhaps people do need to be reminded of that.

But needlessly prolix TOS don't really accomplish that. 8chan is an example of a really, really simple TOS to that effect: "All posts on 8chan are the responsibility of the individual poster and not the administration of 8chan, pursuant to 47 U.S.C. § 230." Did Marc Randazza or someone give specific advice on that? I don't know. But it certainly says exactly what and why without stupidly spewing impressive looking but legally useless words.

The final reason though that you should disregard anything I say as "advice" is that I'm one of the very users who constantly say a bunch of dumb shit online who might, conceivably, end up sued myself, and if we end up sued together, that's what's called a "conflict of interest." We'd both immediately have reasons to try to shift liability onto each other. While I can't think of any remotely viable reason that you'd have any liability for shit that I say, that would clearly be a conflict of interest. Nobody who is a user here, even if they're in perfect standing in every remotely relevant jurisdiction, would not have that conflict of interest.

Because the super-ultra-monster TOS would be one with a "hold harmless" clause where not only would someone be liable for their own words but also be obligated to pay your legal defenses if they got you sued somehow.

But that's a clause where nobody in their right minds would ever post on a site like that and would instantly make you as hated as the Fine Brothers.
 
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In my term as admin, I found that there were people who frequently cited similar boilerplate TOS terms from the first Forumer incarnation of the forums as some sort of inalienable right to be a fucktard. The forums got TOSed on the grounds that there was something about prohibiting underaged users and because the moderation team was not adequately preventing minors to view content. Not trying to dredge up that old drama but in any case, there will be people who read the TOS and think it's an actual binding agreement and some sort of statement of right to do whatever when really it's just standard legalese associated with any online service.
 
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champthom said:
In my term as admin, I found that there were people who frequently cited similar boilerplate TOS terms from the first Forumer incarnation of the forums as some sort of inalienable right to be a fucktard. The forums got TOSed on the grounds that there was something about prohibiting underaged users and because the moderation team was not adequately preventing minors to view content. Not trying to dredge up that old drama but in any case, there will be people who read the TOS and think it's an actual binding agreement and some sort of statement of right to do whatever when really it's just standard legalese associated with any online service.
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TOS is basically what you get kicked off for doing. It's imaginable that there are some conditions where it would be a contract of some sort, but I'm not seeing it.

And no user of this site, lawyer or otherwise, could give good legal advice on how to draft a Terms of Service, because the "best" TOS would be one that fucks us all over. I could draft a really monster TOS that makes everyone who posts here liable for Null's legal costs should we get his ass sued, but I'd have to be even more retarded than I am to do that.

Nobody is going to do that! Except someone so dumb that if you took their advice, you'd deserve to get fucked.
 
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AnOminous said:
TOS is basically what you get kicked off for doing. It's imaginable that there are some conditions where it would be a contract of some sort, but I'm not seeing it.
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To be fair, Terms of Service have been deemed contracts before in courts; especially with bigger companies. Granted, the contract has also been deemed to mean absolutely nothing in regards to damages and remedy.

@Null a ToS isn't going to save this site if something serious goes down; but at the same time I'd suggest you make sure that the ToS specifically says that this site promotes users to use the truth and fact when posting. It can't be slander/libel if it's true (99% of the time anyway...). Maybe also add that the site isn't responsible for individual posters or their actions on or off the site? Not sure what else you can do to be honest.
 
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Null said:
Specifically directing this at @Vitriol and @AnOminous and anyone else proficient in law.

This is our current. It's a XenForo boilerplate.



I'm curious about changing it. A lot of this outright does not apply to the forum's culture or rules and is misleading and worthless.

Specifically, I want to highlight that any post you make is your own and your own responsibility. I don't really give a shit what it is unless it hurts the website. I need a way to word this in Legalese and I need to know what I am legally obligated to give a shit about.

I normally wouldn't care but we've been given so much shit over "defamation" and have so many enemies right now I need to study up on what my rights are and what I can do to protect the site.
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For whatever reason I did not receive a notification for this.

AnOminous said:
I'd just throw a normal disclaimer in here, but I really need to emphasize that I'm not giving legal advice to anyone about anything and am not licensed anywhere and even if I were, it would not be relevant. I haven't and won't do the due diligence for anything I say here to constitute legal advice plus anyone who takes legal advice over the Internet is fucking retarded.

However, I'll comment that there are no magic words you can put into a TOS that will make you any more immune to defamation liability from a site you run than you already are. Luckily, under U.S. law, that immunity is already damn near absolute under § 230 of the Communications Decency Act. The actual scope of the immunity and the mechanics of how you go about exercising it are pretty much unique to whatever jurisdiction you're defending them in, and that requires someone who can actually go into court on your behalf.

There's no way out of that bullshit, it's just something that exists, for 4chan, 8chan, or any other site. Some idiot can always sue you and they may be wasting your time, their time, and everyone's money, but that's just a possibility.

Now, you may think it's honorable to make sure everyone knows the dumb shit they say on the site is on them and they own their own posts and you're not going to go to bat if they fuck up and get sued, that's up to you. Perhaps people do need to be reminded of that.

But needlessly prolix TOS don't really accomplish that. 8chan is an example of a really, really simple TOS to that effect: "All posts on 8chan are the responsibility of the individual poster and not the administration of 8chan, pursuant to 47 U.S.C. § 230." Did Marc Randazza or someone give specific advice on that? I don't know. But it certainly says exactly what and why without stupidly spewing impressive looking but legally useless words.

The final reason though that you should disregard anything I say as "advice" is that I'm one of the very users who constantly say a bunch of dumb shit online who might, conceivably, end up sued myself, and if we end up sued together, that's what's called a "conflict of interest." We'd both immediately have reasons to try to shift liability onto each other. While I can't think of any remotely viable reason that you'd have any liability for shit that I say, that would clearly be a conflict of interest. Nobody who is a user here, even if they're in perfect standing in every remotely relevant jurisdiction, would not have that conflict of interest.

Because the super-ultra-monster TOS would be one with a "hold harmless" clause where not only would someone be liable for their own words but also be obligated to pay your legal defenses if they got you sued somehow.

But that's a clause where nobody in their right minds would ever post on a site like that and would instantly make you as hated as the Fine Brothers.
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Agreed. especially about the lack of any magic wording to prevent all suits and the inability of any user of this forum to produce a water tight TOS, myself included. Likewise I cannot offer legal advice without violating my contract of employment, nor can i accept any liability for anything you choose to accept as such. Hypothetically however if I was to modify Xenforo T&Cs to more accurately reflect the reality of running a forum similar to the kiwifarms I would do something like this:


<p>The providers ("we", "us", "our") of the service provided by this web site ("Service") are not responsible for any user-generated content and accounts ("Content") or the effects of the same. By using this service you accept full personal liability for any damage or harm suffered as a result of the Content viewed. We accept no liability for and make no guarantee to the nature of the Content. Content submitted express the views of their author only. </p>

<p>You agree to not use the Service to submit or link to any Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any US laws.</p>

<p>All Content you submit or upload may be reviewed by staff members. All Content you submit or upload may be sent to third-party verification services (including, but not limited to, spam prevention services). Do not submit any Content that you consider to be private or confidential.</p>

<p>We reserve the rights to remove or modify any Content submitted for any reason without explanation. Requests for Content to be removed or modified will be undertaken only at our discretion. We reserve the right to take any action against any account with the Service at any time without any prior notice, warning or explanation.</p>

<p>You are granting us with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service. You retain copyright over the Content.</p>

<p> By registering an account you agree to abide by the sites rules, conventions and codes of conduct. Failure to follow or obey any direction given by the staff will constitute a breach of these terms. We reserve the right to complete discretion in determining what shall count as a 'failure to follow or obey any direction' . The "staff"are those listed on the web site as such <p>

<p>We reserve the rights to remove or modify the site's rules, conventions and codes of conduct for any reason at any time without explanation or notice. <p>

<p> By registering an account you agree that you are over the age of 18 and consent to view all Content and accept full personal liability for any effects of said viewing. <p>

<p>These terms may be changed at any time without notice.</p>

<p>If you do not agree with these terms, please do not register or use this Service. If you wish to close your account, please contact us. We reserve complete discretion as to the deletion of accounts and do not guarantee in anyway that requests for deletion will be granted.</p>
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purely hypothetical of course.

the guardian has a reasonable article on writing T&Cs and lays out much the same process as we were taught. There is no magic to writing T&Cs and if you are bright enough to code you are bright enough to write them- especially for a service where no money is changing hands. I strongly recommend you spend an evening going through these points and produce your own from scratch instead:
the Guardian said:
Draw up a list of the key commercial terms that you are offering your customers

• Think of all the scenarios of what could possibly go wrong and then set out what you would do in each case.

• Imagine the most awkward customer possible in doing this exercise

• Put yourself in the shoes of your customers and make sure the language is at their level and user friendly. Hiding everything on one page in the smallest font possible will not endear you to your customers

• Don't forget about the terms of trade – this should be something that you revisit and update, as and when required.
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Edit: I would also specify that if Content is suspected to be in violation of US law then proof should be sent to the site owner for review. Most courts like it when there is an internal mechanism for resolving disputes and 'he didn't give me a chance to remedy the situation' is generally good to buy time and defer judgements if shit was ever to hit the fan. Tagging @Null as I made this edit after you viewed the page.

This is why i really can't give casual over the net legal advice on the fly- I could tinker with terms endlessly and still find things to include.
 
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