Null is out of touch with women

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Clem Fandango said:
I've been married almost a decade and I don't claim to understand women, but my wife said something to the other day that made my head spin. She said "I like that you talk back to me".

I'm by no means a bad boy (despite whatever rage posts I've made in A&H), and would probably say I am more of a nice guy in terms of letting her have her own way most of the times.

But she "likes that I talk back"? What does that mean? Because I took it to mean that she apparently eventually gets bored with me just agreeing with whatever she suggests, and so she will occasionally purposely suggest dumbass shit just to see if I will argue back.

So that's what I don't get about women. If you give them their own way, they can't just be happy with that.
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Yup, women are attracted to dominant, sometimes assholish traits. They'll say they are attracted to things their society or culture says they should prioritize, but their actions demonstrate their true priorities. And I know this because I went from that nice guy routine guys are taught by their moms and female friends to do (to make the men compliant) and had to learn otherwise. I'm a really laid back person in real life about most things and are usually "eh" and I've learned I have to sometimes at least fake that I have a preference or want things a certain way because women don't like the appearance of indecisiveness. Which, if you've ever tried to take a picky eater out to eat, they will insist that you choose but then shoot down everything that isn't tacos for the 100th time. But tthat's how women work. They expect the man to lead. I dated a crazy rabid feminist and even she acted like she expected me to lead when her reputation wasn't on the table.

I make a big stink about this shit because I was a dupe for so long in my life and I get angry seeing these weak men and these women tell men, especially younger men, this bullshit. It's advice they give in the moment feeling no emotion with their own personal headcannon about themselves... but most guys aren't sure how to describe what they want in a woman, and women themselves are famously fickle, if they are giving this advice so confidently and it's so obviously generic and wrong men really should ask why they so strongly insist something that doesn't jive with their own actions... on the forums they just say women just want a nice guy, but you go on dating profiles and it's full of shit like "must be 6'", " etc etc. They'll just claim those are "the bad women" of course.
 
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Harbinger of Kali Yuga said:
I'm a really laid back person in real life about most things and are usually "eh" and I've learned I have to sometimes at least fake that I have a preference or want things a certain way because women don't like the appearance of indecisiveness
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Oh yeah, even I've learned that the correct answer to "should I wear this coat or this coat" is not "I don't care", "they both look fine" or (really, don't choose this one) "we're already late".

No, you gotta say "definitely that one, the other one looks like dogshit".
 
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Clem Fandango said:
Oh yeah, even I've learned that the correct answer to "should I wear this coat or this coat" is not "I don't care", "they both look fine" or (really, don't choose this one) "we're already late".

No, you gotta say "definitely that one, the other one looks like dogshit".
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‘They both make you look fat’ then you get in a big fight about it and miss whatever stupid thing she wanted to drag you to.
 
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Clem Fandango said:
She said "I like that you talk back to me".
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Clem Fandango said:
So that's what I don't get about women. If you give them their own way, they can't just be happy with that.
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I can't count the number of men who have said the same/similar to me.

I draw no general conclusions about men from that. It came from a lot of directions, some good, some crippled.

But from the good angle - Strong-minded, healthy people tend to like a little challenge. And maybe healthy people in general are charmed by other people with both a personality and an ability to be loving, neither a wet noodle nor a bully or bean-counter.

Your challenge is not to get carried away either trying to be too agreeable or trying to assert some jungle-tier dominance.

...But you're married; just enjoy her and getting to know each other better and better with time. A sense of humor, good sense of self, and ability to be indulgent at the right times without being or feeling a doormat are three great things to enjoy and value in a healthy relationship. And being surprised by a mate in a way that encourages you to be a whole person is a great thing. I wish you many more years of it.

Clem Fandango said:
I took it to mean that she apparently eventually gets bored with me just agreeing with whatever she suggests, and so she will occasionally purposely suggest dumbass shit just to see if I will argue back.
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I might suggest that she was letting you know that she likes who you are, values your perspective, and wants to encourage you to engage and participate. If she is attracted to when you "talk back," sounds like you might deliver it well, which is not always easy to do.

Harbinger of Kali Yuga said:
Yup, women are attracted to dominant, sometimes assholish traits.
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Sometimes. And sometimes men are attracted to dominant, asshole traits in women. And on the flip, sometimes men and women just want a doormat to boss around in earnest. But healthy people not in need of either a replacement parent or a pseudo-child tend to like other healthy people. It's harder for unhealthy people to find healthy people, because unhealthy people gravitate toward the wrong things.

(That's not to say that every man who has claimed to like my fiestiness fierceness strong-mindedness was healthy. Some of them actually wanted a mommy figure, and some only liked it in theory - they were actually threatened or ultimately wanted a pet - and either that combusts or someone surrenders their personhood. (And yes, having experience with unhealthy people means that I was not always smart and healthy, either.). But for the most part, the healthy men I've known romantically have appreciated that quality, and I likewise appreciate men who can call bullshit with humor and good sense, and take having it called on them with the same energy. Nothing worse than a habitually sulky bitch. Total drag.)
 
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Harbinger of Kali Yuga said:
Yup, women are attracted to dominant, sometimes assholish traits. They'll say they are attracted to things their society or culture says they should prioritize, but their actions demonstrate their true priorities. And I know this because I went from that nice guy routine guys are taught by their moms and female friends to do (to make the men compliant) and had to learn otherwise. I'm a really laid back person in real life about most things and are usually "eh" and I've learned I have to sometimes at least fake that I have a preference or want things a certain way because women don't like the appearance of indecisiveness. Which, if you've ever tried to take a picky eater out to eat, they will insist that you choose but then shoot down everything that isn't tacos for the 100th time. But tthat's how women work. They expect the man to lead. I dated a crazy rabid feminist and even she acted like she expected me to lead when her reputation wasn't on the table.

I make a big stink about this shit because I was a dupe for so long in my life and I get angry seeing these weak men and these women tell men, especially younger men, this bullshit. It's advice they give in the moment feeling no emotion with their own personal headcannon about themselves... but most guys aren't sure how to describe what they want in a woman, and women themselves are famously fickle, if they are giving this advice so confidently and it's so obviously generic and wrong men really should ask why they so strongly insist something that doesn't jive with their own actions... on the forums they just say women just want a nice guy, but you go on dating profiles and it's full of shit like "must be 6'", " etc etc. They'll just claim those are "the bad women" of course.
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Just think of it as basically raising a daughter. Just substitute the child activities for adult activities. Although some Women still want to play in the ball pit and pushed on the swings.

"Higher! Higher Dadd--- oop"
 
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Android raptor said:
Null got mad at me for pointing out bisexuality exists and being right about abortion and the church too often, lol
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Null kind of wants to speak up for women but I don't think he really likes what most women would really say, lol. That said it's probably less what you said and how disruptive you are.
Friend of Dorothy Parker said:
Sometimes. And sometimes men are attracted to dominant, asshole traits in women. And on the flip, sometimes men and women just want a doormat to boss around in earnest. But healthy people not in need of either a replacement parent or a pseudo-child tend to like other healthy people. It's harder for unhealthy people to find healthy people, because unhealthy people gravitate toward the wrong things.

(That's not to say that every man who has claimed to like my fiestiness fierceness strong-mindedness was healthy. Some of them actually wanted a mommy figure, and some only liked it in theory - they were actually threatened or ultimately wanted a pet - and either that combusts or someone surrenders their personhood. (And yes, having experience with unhealthy people means that I was not always smart and healthy, either.). But for the most part, the healthy men I've known romantically have appreciated that quality, and I likewise appreciate men who can call bullshit with humor and good sense, and take having it called on them with the same energy. Nothing worse than a habitually sulky bitch. Total drag.)
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"Sometimes" implies equal proportion. By and large, this is how it is, I don't know why women got into their head that men and women are the same but we're not and our dating strategies are different. And I don't know why any men listen to women on this stuff. All women, save the cynical ones that say the same shit redpill men say, say this shit but then you see who and how they date and it's always, always Chads.

Anyway I'm saying women prefer dominant traits nearly universally and they're okay with assholishness over weakness in all cases. Once you leave the American or Western ideological prisms on relationship and women's lib you find even more liberal women elsewhere in the world have these same traditional expectations. In fact most women in the west want this from their partners but also battle social expectations and their female peers pushing them to be girlbosses so they act in messed up ways and don't know what they really want. I've sabotaged relationships to get the women to want to break up to me simply by being too agreeable.
 
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Harbinger of Kali Yuga said:
I've sabotaged relationships to get the women to want to break up to me simply by being too agreeable.
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Very mature.

Harbinger of Kali Yuga said:
"Sometimes" implies equal proportion....I don't know why women got into their head that men and women are the same but we're not
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Learn to fucking read. I choose my words carefully, most of the time. I very specifically avoided specious generalizations in my comment; the point wasn't to assert that "all/no men are.../all/no women are....". That's your shtick, not mine.

Sorry for you if you behave like, or pick, stereotypes. Perhaps it's comforting? It's your choice to live without actually having to think or to try relate with actual humans, but in the real world even general tendencies are not the full story, nor nearly so overwhelming nor fundamental as you seem to think.

And I sure as fuck don't need some nitwit suggesting I said something I didn't say, nor using my comments as a tenuous hook to (once again) advance some simplistic, oppositional world-view that, despite your protests to the contrary, depends entirely on the shallowness of popular culture and lack of reflection or nuance of its self-absorbed adopters.

Tl;dr: be better. You implicitly claim to be smart and at ease, but your need to find a fight where there wasn't one suggests otherwise. Best advice: define yourself as who you are, not as against some other thing you've set up in your mind as inherently diametrically opposed.
 
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Friend of Dorothy Parker said:
Very mature.
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Oh, you women hate it when we use your shit against you. You're essentially telling me off for being too agreeable and not going along with women's games. I mean, if I really like you I'll play ball, but if you annoy me... it's malicious compliance.
Friend of Dorothy Parker said:
Learn to fucking read. I choose my words carefully, most of the time. I very specifically avoided specious generalizations in my comment; the point wasn't to assert that "all/no men are.../all/no women are....". That's your shtick, not mine.

Sorry for you if you behave like, or pick, stereotypes. Perhaps it's comforting? It's your choice to live without actually having to think or to try relate with actual humans, but in the real world even general tendencies are not the full story, nor nearly so overwhelming nor fundamental as you seem to think.

And I sure as fuck don't need some nitwit suggesting I said something I didn't say, nor using my comments as a tenuous hook to (once again) advance some simplistic, oppositional world-view that, despite your protests to the contrary, depends entirely on the shallowness of popular culture and lack of reflection or nuance of its self-absorbed adopters.

Tl;dr: be better. You implicitly claim to be smart and at ease, but your need to find a fight where there wasn't one suggests otherwise. Best advice: define yourself as who you are, not as against some other thing you've set up in your mind as inherently diametrically opposed.
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Yeah, men should be who they are, but they also need to change who they are by and large. I wasn't even directing that at you but women in general, lol, stop getting your panties in a twist. I literally just name dropped you in another post as an example of one of the chill women, why do you always go after me right after I compliment you?

This is the same shit women always say in response to the red pill, but we only behave that way because that's what women respond to.

You women can talk about, when discussing men and dating, being nice and responsible holding the door open and all that, but the real advice is telling men to work out. That's how they'll actually get attention from women. Working out and dressing up. If a woman is into you physically she'll make up all sorts of reasons why you're awesome and none of them are probably true. Most of the other shit is ex post facto justification, a reality imposed retroactively because, gawd, he's just so hawt.
 
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I find it interesting that they reacted to me saying I sabotaged a relationship; they didn't ask or care it was because the woman was crazy and would have stabbed me if I broke up myself, lol. It's safer to make someone think it's their idea. But simps will simp and women will freak out when men get a little too on the nose on what turns e'm on... and tunes 'em out. These chicks here already advocate playing games and insult men, but the second a man says something back, they clutch pearls and get offended.
Lurker said:
gr8 own dood
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Hey, wanna have a pickle jar opening contest?
 
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