Diseased Open Source Software Community - it's about ethics in Code of Conducts

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Saddam Hussain Obama said:
Why is it that every lolcow in tech, like Hector Martain, Drew Devault, etc., all hate X11 and want people to use Wayland?
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Because X11 fucking sucks and was due for a replacement years ago. The Xorg developers themselves are the ones who came up and created Wayland because they hate X11 and Xorg. Wayland is a new technology being introduced to replace an old technology long overdue for replacement, and sooner or later, most modern day Linux GUIs will run on Wayland. It's people realizing that an old technology doesn't meet current day needs and abandoning it for something better. Can anyone name a PC game that uses DirectMusic or D3D retained mode that was released in the last 10 years? I don't think so


In fact, Windows also decided to change how graphics drivers should work. With Windows Vista, Microsoft introduced WDDM, which requires different graphics drivers from the ones that are compatible with XP. In Windows 8, they removed legacy graphics driver support, supporting only WDDM.

The main difference between a major underlying tech change on Windows and on Linux is that while on Windows, decisions are made mostly behind closed doors, on Linux, everything happens out in the open.

George Floyd said:
If Wayland doesn't work with the drivers of the largest and most popular GPU manufacturer, that seems to me like a Wayland problem, not an Nvidia problem. The audacity of this nigger to suggest that "Nvidia's drivers are broken" because his wonky incompetent script kiddie kernel mod can't support them.
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Because Wayland is completely fucking different from Xorg? It's a different thing that is so fundamentally different, that you can't "just make the Xorg driver work". No, support for Wayland has to come from the devs of the GPU drivers. NVIDIA has only recently released source code of their Linux kernel driver, which is good news for Nouveau, and they're working on a completely new driver to replace the old proprietary driver, but that also only happened recently.

Which means that for the majority of Linux and NVIDIA co-existing, the only non-retarded option for Linux users is a proprietary driver made by a company that for the longest time, never truly cared about Linux.

In summary, Wayland good, but Hector Martin and Drew DeVault are still retards who may occasionally be right about something, but they're still retarded
 
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Nvidia doesn't care about desktop Linux. Not Linux overall. They have an almost spotless support for CUDA and their drivers are rock solid in general (because in most non desktop installs, you don't ever update the kernel a part from security fixes) so the proprietary drivers are a non issue. Also, stuff like cudnn, rapids etc works perfectly fine. Support for similar software(a part from the drivers) and libraries basically does not even exist on AMD, or if it does it's a tragedy of broken software. I'm not even talking about CUDA here, but everything else.


But yeah they don't really give a shit about display servers and Wayland. Though I still think that it's insane to just say that Nvidia is broken because Wayland support is bad. When you design new software, you have to consider current market realities too. If windows decided to just drop support for idk, UEFI or something foundational like that I wouldn't blame it on the hardware manufacturers for having broken hardware
 
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Saddam Hussain Obama said:
Why is it that every lolcow in tech, like Hector Martain, Drew Devault, etc., all hate X11 and want people to use Wayland?
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To be fair, X11 is pretty broken in many ways like having shit multi-monitor support as an example, but Wayland is also pretty broken especially for running X11 apps (which many desktop applications still rely on) hence for desktop environments, there is very little reason to use Wayland over X11. Honestly, I see it as an alternative to X11, not as an replacement in this case.

At least for Mobile Linux, the GUI environment for it (like phosh used in postmarketOS) is built from the ground up with the usage of Wayland in mind, hence they can get away from not using X11 or having X11 compatibility at all. Not for desktop Linux though.

Honestly I can't wait for yet another X11/Wayland replacement which is actually good.
 
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Deranged Deez said:
Because X11 fucking sucks and was due for a replacement years ago. The Xorg developers themselves are the ones who came up and created Wayland because they hate X11 and Xorg. Wayland is a new technology being introduced to replace an old technology long overdue for replacement, and sooner or later, most modern day Linux GUIs will run on Wayland. It's people realizing that an old technology doesn't meet current day needs and abandoning it for something better.
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You're making the same mistake they are. X is crufty, it's not fundamentally flawed - or it wouldn't have been used these past 200 years.
Wayland's fifteen(!) years old now - do you really think that if those thousands of man-hours had instead been spent working on X, every bug wouldn't have been fixed several times over?

Software engineers repeatedly underestimate the importance of backwards compatibility and incremental changes, time and again.

Examples of successful transitions:
* C -> C++ -> C++11 -> ...
* Proprietary Unix -> Proprietary Unix plus GNU tools -> GNU/Linux
* Windows 1.0 -> Windows 2.0 -> ... -> Windows 11
* x86 -> amd64

Examples of unsuccessful or difficult transitions:
* Python 2 -> Python 3
* Perl 5 -> Perl 6
* C++ -> Rust
* x86 -> Itanium
* X11 -> Wayland

I wish the tech utopianists would stop fucking things up for the rest of us, and instead work on fixing existing software.
 
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I had a good experience with Wayland, but to be fair, I had to workaround some issues.
I like the per-screen scaling feature (doesn't have that on X), but it fucks the scaling of VNC clients.
With Wayland, you trade between stability with nifty features. I believe the best way forward lays in between X and Wayland, and making it more consistent with the scaling.
 
Rusty Metal Skull Gun said:
Examples of unsuccessful or difficult transitions:
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One can add:

Successful: ext -> ext2 -> ext3 -> ext4

Difficult: ext4 -> btrfs

Rusty Metal Skull Gun said:
You're making the same mistake they are. X is crufty, it's not fundamentally flawed - or it wouldn't have been used these past 200 years.
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Still, difficult though transitions are, in many cases there really are fundamental flaws that cannot be fixed in a backwards compatible way. Some are user-facing design decisions (Perl's sigils, Python 2's handling of Unicode, ext4's lack of copy-on-write), and some are that the source code or API has grown bloated and out of control. One can continue putting patches on your bike tire, but at some point it's better to buy a new tire.

In the case of X11, it had been felt for a long time that it needed a fundamental rethink. Of course, transitions are painful, but at some point you have to take the plunge rather than be stuck paying for technical debt forever.

Wayland also has a compatibility story with a layer that supports X. The problem I most often hear is not that the concept is flawed but that the developers have the wrong priorities. A lot of complaints were that they only care about GNOME+Linux. If their vision is the world on GNOME, that brings it into conflict with X's openness.

Finally, a lot of widely used software today began as an upstart replacement to existing software. That includes many you listed: Unix (succeeding Multics), C (succeeding BCPL and B), etc. They had to fight for market share. Newer projects such as Rust may yet succeed (for comparison, Go is doing well), and Python 3 despite the growing pains is now standard. Some may settle in as a competitor, such as nginx vs. Apache. Other examples are Mosaic, Netscape, IE, etc., being displaced by Firefox (hanging on) and Chrome.
 
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Car Won't Crank said:
I will wager Wayland will be on its way to getting fixed if Steam Deck tries to implement it in a future Steam Deck OS version. The userbase behind Steam Deck is simply much larger and cohesive than the fragmented various Linux distro users floating around.
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The console UI uses gamescope, which is a wayland compositor. And it also adds benefits that X couldn't, such as on-the-fly changes to refresh rates, and the quick suspend-quick start straight to game feature. Future plasma releases will be wayland by default, so the deck will get it in desktop mode eventually.
 
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Panzerfrau said:
You WILL be using only the stack Hector approves and you WILL like it. Waiting for other great additions, like a Cirno loli desktop wallpaper that you can't change
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That's an insult to ⑨'s below average intelligence.
Car Won't Crank said:
I will wager Wayland will be on its way to getting fixed if Steam Deck tries to implement it in a future Steam Deck OS version
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Steam still uses X11 due to some chat animations that they supposedly fixed (still not seeing it on wayland for me).
Don't forget they removed -no-browser and then proceed to eat your ram.
 
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♂CANAM productions♂ said:
That's an insult to ⑨'s below average intelligence.
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We all know Cirno prefers 9front OS (which is a pure chaos and I think warrants a post in this thread in the future as well), she would never use this Apple bootlicker's faggy distro. I hope Hector knows about it and seethes.

oses.jpg
 
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