Paradox Studio Thread

[LovisXVI]

didn't they even have the caste system in ck2?

Yeah, because the Varna system, despite the claims of Indian leftists, has been in use for nearly two thousand years.

 

[General Emílio Médici]

Vicky 3 is a huge dissapointment.

 

[LovisXVI]

Vicky 3 is a huge dissapointment.

Johan, save us, Johan, release Project Caesar and have it be good, Johan, save us.

 

[Slap47]

Never going to beat the communist allegations.
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Fucking lol, lmao even, they spout off the narrative that caste was a mean imposition by the British rather than the taking advantage of the preexisting systems. They even essentially admit as such almost immediately after, but in a backhanded fashion. Apparently codifying a common system to be legally entrenched in a universal legal system is "colonial creation". Indian leftists are the worst.

He is a bit more nuanced than that. He says the British standardized a system over a place with many different understandings of Caste for the purpose of administration.

Also, the people that tend to say that Caste was a mostly British creation tend to actually be far-right Hinduvta people who paradoxically want to actually preserve castism by saying that India already solved it by getting rid of the British Raj.

 

[thefreshmaker]

Here's the problem, Tooze concludes that Germany HAD to start Operation Barbarossa because pre war rearmament wasn't sustainable, which gets the priorities of the German leadership wrong and doesn't account for how the economy changed once the war began.
Germany wasn't bankrupting themselves and thereby putting themselves on a path of war, they were purposefully seizing what they saw as a diminishing window of opportunity to go to war, which wasn't sustainable, but which the leadership knew could be supported by going into a command economy once the war began. Operation Barbarossa had to happen as well when it did. The soviets were expanding their forces too, and every year spent waiting simply meant fighting a more prepared Soviet Union.

These are all factors that went into it, but it's quite clear from the evidence that if they attacked later than they did that the shortages they were experiencing would have seriously jeopardized the operation, to the point where they were going to have to demotorize and disband a significant portion of the army to get them back into the fields and factories.

The limited window idea is more of a factor in WW1, and less so in WW2. Outside of the massive reserve of trained conscripts, the Soviets had very limited ability to provide a threat until the US started lend lease to them. The tanks of 1942/3 were produced by starving the civilian economy. Tooze doesn't analyze the Soviets as the book is not dedicated to them, but he doesn't need to. The rational for the Nazi invasion, beyond the ideological, was clearly economic when you look at the planning and preparatory documents for the post-invasion.

There was never any danger of the economy collapsing because the leadership knew exactly where they were taking things.

This is only true if you think that a) the leadership was banking on robbing Europe to pay Germany and b) they were going to be successful. Premise a) is certainly at minimum a shade of correct, but b) was clearly incorrect per history.

The unfortunate reality for Nazi Germany was that they were robbing the very countries they were planning on taking hold of, and you can't turn a desolate Ukraine into a bread basket overnight, it requires decades or centuries of colonizing and growth. If the economy was not in danger they wouldn't be going to Romania or the Soviets and giving away desperately needed machine tools, ships and weapons for exceedingly expensive oil. They wouldn't have needed to starve the Balkans and Low Countries to feed Germany due to a shortage of farm labor. They wouldn't have had a glut of meats in 1941 on the market because farmers were forced to cull herds for a want of grain fodder.

Tooze especially shows his colors when he starts writing about the Soviets once Germany invades.

Yes, Tooze is certainly a pinkie, however that does not discount the economic evidence he puts forward. Command economies and warfare economies, whether we are referring to Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, wartime United States, the Soviet Union, Japan, etc, they are incredibly inefficient. Even the United States, despite the results and propaganda, saw a massive reduction in productivity and real economic growth during the war period that didn't really disappear under the mid 1950s because of this. They could certainly turn Detroit into a gigantic tank farm, but the reality is that turning a train factory around and freezing prices does not help an economic system run efficiently. Luckily the United States did this temporarily, but for Nazi Germany it was the economic system.

Never going to beat the communist allegations.

Fucking lol, lmao even, they spout off the narrative that caste was a mean imposition by the British rather than the taking advantage of the preexisting systems. They even essentially admit as such almost immediately after, but in a backhanded fashion. Apparently codifying a common system to be legally entrenched in a universal legal system is "colonial creation". Indian leftists are the worst.

The caste system under the Raj was very different to the prior systems in place, but it was definitely bourne out of them, and the British eventually turned it around closer to the end of the Raj. This effort still lives on with the scheduled tribes of India, but hey, the constitution of India isn't going to get in the way of a caste society when the country is virtually feudalism with cars.

 

[Willie B. Hardigan]

Even the United States, despite the results and propaganda, saw a massive reduction in productivity and real economic growth during the war period that didn't really disappear under the mid 1950s because of this.

You had me until this tidbit. I think the noted decline in productivity during the first few years of the conflict had to do more with around 16 million working Americans leaving their old jobs to fight and the typical disruptions within the manufacturing sector as production lines were retooled, labor force standards readjusted, and luxury resources rationed in response to the demands of war rather than any true decline in inherent productivity potential. The planned war economy was strong, but not enough to completely snuff out the civilian markets like other nations had to do to keep the army supplied. It was ineffective compared to a peacetime US economy but that's a foregone conclusion and doesn't prove much beyond stating the obvious that valuable resources spent outside the typical civilian economies will not benefit it until much later when the situation stabilizes to the point where excess war material is no longer needed in droves.

You may be overestimating the negative effects of the command economies, which is something I never thought I'd say in my life, but if executed correctly with certain favorable variables, they can work out in a semi-reasonable timeframe. As always, when pushed to their limits or done in asinine ways like the Nazi economy tended to do, then things can go sour fast. The underlying strength of US manufacturing being built was heavily masked in premature statistics. In your list, it should be downgraded to an honorary mention at best. You also forgot to mention Great Britain which had a really inefficient bureaucracy to the point it sometimes rivaled the Soviets in the 90s.

My view is that Germany was trying to lay some sort of decent, long-term, framework for its economics based on the hope of Britain bowing out to give them a chance to mature, but when that didn't happen they decided to just try and knock out the threat to the East while the economy, military, and national will was still healthy enough. They probably didn't expect a quick surrender instead predicting things to lull a year into the invasion as their expected, battered Red Army, licks its wounds. Since these systems were still too young to handle the feat of fighting a usually stubborn Russia with infinite backing from the largest manufacturer, any planned benefits they might have banked on before the invasion were now severely reduced and implemented extremely haphazardly with little chance to course correct. I'm sure Austria and Czechia helped them greatly but they were still "boosts" to the main machine back in the Deutschland. Feel free to correct me though.

 

[thefreshmaker]

You had me until this tidbit. I think the noted decline in productivity during the first few years of the conflict had to do more with around 16 million working Americans leaving their old jobs to fight and the typical disruptions within the manufacturing sector as production lines were retooled, labor force standards readjusted, and luxury resources rationed in response to the demands of war rather than any true decline in inherent productivity potential.

This was actually precisely my point, and I'd recommend The Economic Consequences of U.S. Mobilization for the Second World War by Field. It goes into far more detail than I could put in a single paragraph. You had millions of workers leaving for the front or for non-productive work and they were replaced by those without skills or women who had no experience and far less ability to achieve the output of men in industry. You had massive impacts to trade as shipping lines were completely abandoned in favor of the convoy system and many still did not get through. You had the lack of foreign imports requiring massive investment in home-grown sources or synthetic replacements (where Germany invested exorbitant resources in coal hydrogenation and rubber production for little gain, the US actually succeeded). All of this lead to opportunity costs, investment costs, production delays, etc, that sorely hit productivity. The saving grace for the US was that they had a huge amount of slack in the economy that Europe and Asia did not in the 1930s and 1940s.

The machine was still spectacular and awesome, but it had major issues.

You also forgot to mention Great Britain which had a really inefficient bureaucracy to the point it sometimes rivaled the Soviets in the 90s.

They fall under the "etc" portion. It applies to every economy in the war. The results of the economic devolution can be seen in their loss of status and continuance of rationing for almost a full decade after the war.

 

[hawkisnight]

Age of History 3 released and it has quite a few players for such a niche game. Anyone played it? How does it compare to paradox games?

 

[God of Nothing]

Edit: I have no idea how this post got in this thread, my bad. Pozzed Paradox baaaad

 

[thefreshmaker]

Age of History 3 released and it has quite a few players for such a niche game. Anyone played it? How does it compare to paradox games?

It's nice to paint maps with the editor and not much more.

 

[NvII iS 8ulLt f0R 88C]

It's nice to paint maps with the editor and not much more.

so basically AoH2?

Sorry for doubleposting, but Johan added Extraterritorial Countries to simulate Daimyos.

And the Takeda are historically still in Chūgoku. I trvly knvvl.

 

[Super Hans v2]

Sorry for doubleposting, but Johan added Extraterritorial Countries to simulate Daimyos.
View attachment 6563681
And the Takeda are historically still in Chūgoku. I trvly knvvl.

I like how granular the map is getting. I'm even more worried about how well it will play.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

View attachment 6554699

Victoria 3 is adding caste to the game.

I suppose this will also be used to represent US segregation and Irish discrimination.

Just glancing at it it looks like that is SPECIFICALLY about actual economic class, not cultural change.

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Any y'all play Grand Tactician/Ultimate General/Civil War 2/other AGEOD and grand strategy stuff?

I'm interested in it, but it does like shit graphically.
Also has no naval to my knowledge.
Problem is that since Total War maps are basically unmoddable nobody can make a proper Civil War mod. The mods that do exist just for battles tend to be so autistic (one million units and none of them work) that they're broken.

I would like to see someone render the entirety of the North American landmass. I was excited Grand Tactician had a setting for Confederate Cuba/Nicaragua, but then I found it's just flavor. Likewise I don't think it has the ability to actually fight in Canada or in the historical Arizona front, much less further on into California, front of the war.

 

[Computer God Autism]

Problem is that since Total War maps are basically unmoddable nobody can make a proper Civil War mod. The mods that do exist just for battles tend to be so autistic (one million units and none of them work) that they're broken.

https://www.moddb.com/mods/steam-and-steel-total-war

It's a bit rough around the edges but it is functional and covers the whole continent (poorly, admittedly).

 

[Slap47]

This debate about Nazi economics overthinks things. They viewed the economy in a more mercantile and Darwinian way. You get wealth by taking it from others, not from innovation and efficiency. You guys are clouded by a liberal bias.

I like how granular the map is getting. I'm even more worried about how well it will play.

Victoria 3 runs like garbage in the late game so this is actually my biggest worry. Project Caesar looks like it will have way more going on in general.

 

[Blackstar]

Victoria 3 runs like garbage in the late game so this is actually my biggest worry. Project Caesar looks like it will have way more going on in general.

In one of the earlier dev diaries Johan said that in the current builds the ticks are as fast as in EU4

 

[thefreshmaker]

Amendment to Age of History 3 opinion - it is actually far closer to an EU4 "lite" than the previous titles and feels like something Paradox would have made around 2009 if they wanted to capture a wider audience. Don't expect significant complexity, but it's very familiar and the UI is a marked improvement over nu Paradox.

It's honestly worth the $15.

 

[Snekposter]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3358705508

God, I love Paradox games some times. Sometimes, if you're very lucky, they allow you to live out some of your deepest fantasies.

 

[General Emílio Médici]

You guys should have shared the HoI4 diaries.

Belgium Focus Trees

Congo Madness

Germany Rework

Haven't read it all, but I gotta say I like the stupid bullshit on the Congo just because it looks dumb. The German rework not only has the so demanded commie tree that the marxists have been desperate for. It also provides a big expansion for the alt-history paths and the choice between eastern and western expansion is no longer reliant on your choice between Monarchy or Democracy meaning you can play a chill Kaiserreich or a aggressive Democracy by force Germany.

 

[Snekposter]

a aggressive Democracy by force Germany

Fuck yeah. Now if only Paradox could give the USA something similar. Democracy in Latin America is non-negotiable.

Seriously, the American focus tree they added in WtT is absolute dogshit, even by Paradox's usual standards.