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What are your expectations for the EU5 release?


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  • Poll closed .
I've always wanted to get into it but the performance is atrocious, a victim of being too ambitious for the engine to handle.
There's a bunch of mods like that for various Paradox games. I tried Millennium Dawn a few months back and the performance was so bad it was caussing my browser pages to crash with an out of memory error. I've literally never had any game do that before.

I know people like to shit on Anbennar these days because the trannies are infesting it, but one thing I always enjoyed was it's pretty good from a performance perspective. They even had a submod recently which found a workaround for terrain types being hardcoded to at least let you change the terrain modifiers even if it can't affect the terrain mapmode itself.
 
It was only recently announced. They handed out a bunch of keys to youtubers to demo the game in the last week or so, and IIRC it's being released in November. It looks really fun IMO. They added a crap ton of conventional/non nuke stuff. Things like army divisions/spec ops teams/new airbases + airplane types. You can also now physically invade territory, and if you hold it long enough you take over getting all the research and production etc. I know it's supposed to be a nuke game but honestly I'm looking forward to putting a massive no nuke timer on it and playing it like an arcadey modern day strategy game for a bit.

Kinda interested to see how the balance works out with the conventional stuff since some regions are potentially super vulnerable to being invaded from multiple directions, necessitating a bunch of investment into armies and the like, while some regions like North America are functionally invulnerable to it letting them spend on other stuff.
I made the mistake of buying ICBM without remembering that ICBM: Escalation exists. I asked for a refund, but I just asked for one on another game. Rushed out and bought the sequel even at near full price. Two (with the DLC) campaigns, semi-historical (take a real Cold War idea and blow it up way out of proportion: Russian civil wars, clashes over the New Northwest Passage, Rhodesian Bush War, etc.), tons of content. Can field things like rods from gods, suitcase nukes, hunter-killer satellites, ODSTs and more.
 

It was this video, but instead of using Peter III's portrait, they used Peter I's.
Before/After
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What's really bizarre is the portrait of Peter III is behind Peter I.
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I tried Millennium Dawn
My condolences. I did that same mistake one time, but the game barely advanced and all that satellite bullshit put me off really fast.

On a completely unrelated note, what's the difference between ICBM and Command: Modern Air Naval Operations? Both appear to be spreadsheet simulators on top of Google Maps; but I'm curious about their gameplay. There is an irritating lack of Cold War strategy games that don't devolve into nukes and global domination - shit like small-scale confrontations, african shitholes flinging Migs against each other, the Iran-Iraq War...
 
Looking at ICBM Escalation got me brooding over Millennium Dawn. The Outlook system made sense but I never could quite buy into it, particularly because it went TDS mode about Populism (yeah, Trump - a saber-rattler on behalf of Taiwan and Israel - is totes in the same geopolitical alignment as Hussein). I walked through the logic of it and I came to this: all it needs, really, is just another two Alignments.

Alignments:

Globalism: Globohomo. Western, but the institutional kind of Western: cosmopolitan values, loyalty to globalist institutions, values and a sense of a common civilizational identity that is wholly Western of origin but is self-denying. The System of the World.

Western: Trumpian populism and similar movements elsewhere. Also wholly Western, not even always blood and soil (Trump isn't), but rooted in old nationalism. Here's the thing: Western nationalist movements are not predatory (who has Trump actually tried to conquer, besides dumb joking?) and usually sympathize with each other immensely. Ideologies don't always stop nations from preying on each other; Fascist Germany devoured Fascist Poland, Fascist Japan Fascist China, Communist Russia fought Communist Yugoslavia and China, China Vietnam, Vietnam Cambodia. Globalism as an Alignment is united, because it's institutional. Western is united because Viktor Orban is not going to invade Bolsonaro's Brazil. But Western is distinct from Globalist: it seeks to liberate from Globalism while also protecting against encroachment. It CAN go authoritarian but is usually sincerely democratic. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore and company are Western in all practical sense.

Islamist: This is a broad category that can span anything from the more moderate, democratic Islamism of Erdogan to the hardest ISIS lunacy. What it has in common is that, like Western, it is a shared civilizational identity that is very aggressive. Not all politically Islamist governments fall within this Alignment; Iran is Russo-Revisionist, Saudi Arabia is a Western puppet even if its masses are Islamist and it actively promotes Islamist ideologies.

Russo-Revisionist and Sino-Revisionist: There's no inherent affinity between Russia and China, and I'm not convinced, given that, that they need to share an Alignment. Like how the orthodox world is a house divided between Western and Globalism, the revisionist world is a house divided between Russian and Chinese blocs. The Russian bloc traditionally held nations like Ukraine, Belarus, Cuba, an African Communist state here and there, Iran and Syria. The Chinese bloc is smaller - what, North Korea? - but promises to grow heavily at Globalism's expense in Africa.

Rogue State: Nations that do not fall into the Western-Islamist civilizational framework or a power bloc, but are still rabid dogs biting someone. Independent Revisionists, essentially. Hindutva promises to be this in India, Hussein was this in Iraq, Qaddafi I think could be said to have been this more than Islamist (more postcolonial than religious, prince of terror). They can chaotically swap coalitions; Hussein was once backed by America and then found himself an enemy of it.

Any of these Alignments could come into conflict. As is, there's a broad Globalist-Western bloc against Russo-Sino-Revisionism, and Islamism was once a third party that was strangled in the cradle. It's not unimaginable, though, that there could be civil war within; European/American Civil War between Globalism and Western, or a quarrel within Revisionism like the Sino-Soviet split playing out again, or these different coalitions combining. It's easy for me to imagine Globohomo bringing Chinese shock troops over as new Hessian mercenaries. Look at the streets of England today and you see that Globohomo already uses Muslim janissaries against Westerners. Big thing is there being more of a footing of institutional/great power blocs (Globalism and the two Revisionisms), Huntingdon-like civilizational clashes (Islamism and Western) and then these predatory wildcard powers. The rise of populism isn't new fascism like the fags that made Millennium Dawn think it is; it's the Springtime of Nations come again.

My condolences. I did that same mistake one time, but the game barely advanced and all that satellite bullshit put me off really fast.

On a completely unrelated note, what's the difference between ICBM and Command: Modern Air Naval Operations? Both appear to be spreadsheet simulators on top of Google Maps; but I'm curious about their gameplay. There is an irritating lack of Cold War strategy games that don't devolve into nukes and global domination - shit like small-scale confrontations, african shitholes flinging Migs against each other, the Iran-Iraq War...
ICBM is just DEFCON with a few more units, a tech tree and the bare minimum of an economy. If you've played Company of Heroes or Steel Division you're already familiar with RTS games that have fixed-force economies, like you come in with a budget, or you get a trickle, but you can't build an economy, you can only decide how you manage that. I didn't see anything in ICBM allowing for growing the GDP, just destroying it. But it plays like DEFCON with bells and whistles. It's fast and arcadey but its arcadiness, little diorama planes zooming around and destroyers having duels like the ocean is just a lake, makes it accessible.

ICBM Escalation went and blew that up with more complexity. The old version of the game is included as a "Blitz" mode - classic ICBM - but now it has way more detailed tech trees, a million more units, conventional land warfare so you can conquer provinces, etc. Historical campaigns. Most of which revolves around the conventional side; you can have tactical nukes and such. But the main game, that IS intended to end in a spectacular nuclear total war. You're not going to send MiGs out, you'll send "Fighter Planes" out.

I never played the others but they sound to me like completely different games. Actual war simulators. There is no spreadsheeting in ICBM. Just like how in Age of Empires your dudes just swing swords at each other until one falls over, it's not like Total War.
 
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While Paradox was busy switching up the portrait of Peter III with Peter I's, Aquila Interactive has released a new dev diary about Gilded Destiny's leader portraits!

TL;DW:
  • Leaders have 2D portraits that look like oil paintings
  • Portraits consist of multiple parts that can be swapped easily—this is how generic portraits are generated
  • Portraits are animated, making them more lively
  • You can mod portraits easily with the creator tool that you will get alongside the game
  • Adding custom assets for modded portraits is also easy—you only need to add PNGs
I personally prefer 2D portraits (CK2, HOI4) over 3D ones (CK3, Vic3, EU5) and I think they've done a good job implementing them. I like the modular approach they went with and the small animations are nice too.
 
My condolences. I did that same mistake one time, but the game barely advanced and all that satellite bullshit put me off really fast.
Satellite system is honestly kinda boring once you figure it out. A worse issue IMO was the missile system which was horrendously overcomplicated and helped rape performance. Now it's just like vanilla, build sites and then assign rocket wings. Hilariously they've apparently somehow broken sub launched ICBMs from vanilla so had to remove that system. Lol. LMAO even

The system that annoyed me most personally though was their version of the raid system. They added a ton of them, and some you can even do on neighbours while at peace, which is great for simulating stuff like Israel's actions or various NATO interventions. The issue though is they've arbitrarily capped the success rate at 75%, meaning you have a 1/4 chance of a critical failure no matter what. During the US invasion of Iraq I launched a raid on one of their power stations. Despite having 100% air superiority and using B2 stealth bombers, I somehow failed and lost 7 stealth bombers.
 

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Interesting takes from the Generalist

- Population is the most important factor for who is powerful so India and China will be the richest and most powerful places in the game
- Christianity is the weakest religion because it does not allow enslaving conquered populations.
- France and India are the best places to start centralized empires because they have higher populations and lots of flat land.
- Europe has the some of the worst resources in the game and will have to expand for them.

Europe being the underdog sounds pretty cool.
 
Europe being the underdog sounds pretty cool.
Last year Johan mentioned that EU5 will replicate the conditions that made Europe dominate the rest of the world, so it will be similar to Viccy where you will be encouraged to expand into the rest of the world for their pops and RGOs to fuel your empire.
 
That is kinda of how it was. It was not until the 1400s that Europe really started to get going and develop, and it wouldn't be until the 1600s that they really took their place as the big boys.
 

View attachment 7875898

Interesting takes from the Generalist

- Population is the most important factor for who is powerful so India and China will be the richest and most powerful places in the game
- Christianity is the weakest religion because it does not allow enslaving conquered populations.
- France and India are the best places to start centralized empires because they have higher populations and lots of flat land.
- Europe has the some of the worst resources in the game and will have to expand for them.

Europe being the underdog sounds pretty cool.
That makes me worried. There’s a reason the bigness of China and India was worthless for protecting them. And Christianity (I assume there’s a mechanic for the slave trade) is a big part of Europe’s constant social and technological progress.
 
That makes me worried. There’s a reason the bigness of China and India was worthless for protecting them. And Christianity (I assume there’s a mechanic for the slave trade) is a big part of Europe’s constant social and technological progress.
Well, they get their slaves through the slave trade rather than doing the enslaving themselves via conquest.
 
- Population is the most important factor for who is powerful so India and China will be the richest and most powerful places in the game
- Christianity is the weakest religion because it does not allow enslaving conquered populations.
- France and India are the best places to start centralized empires because they have higher populations and lots of flat land.
- Europe has the some of the worst resources in the game and will have to expand for them.
Guns, Germs and Steel and its consequences have been a disaster for Paradox gaming.
That is kinda of how it was. It was not until the 1400s that Europe really started to get going and develop, and it wouldn't be until the 1600s that they really took their place as the big boys.
What is development? High population growth? European population doubled from the start of the millennia to the eve of the black death, giving it the highest proportional population growth in the world prior to that and significantly exceeding the Roman Empire's population at the height of its territorial expansion. Is it having massive, well designed cities that could hold a million assholes? Mesoamericans accomplished that, they still remained in a perpetual bronze age, while Europe had great cities too. Technological advancement? Every technology Europeans came in contact with they iterated upon into something more practical and then proliferated, which the origins of those technologies rarely did, nevermind the independent advancements they made during this period. Great architectural feats? Cathedrals have no comparison. Empire-building? Repeatedly, a few thousand European knights would tactically (and occasionally strategically) defeat the remnants of Rome and the civilization that shattered Roman hegemony and then carve out states and empires from them, despite both having more numbers than Christendom on some census spreadsheet, and the moment sailing technology advanced sufficiently the Iberians needed less than that to conquer a whole hemisphere. The only thing the Europeans really lacked were consumer goods like spices and tea they valued more than the people they traded for them with and ready deposits of bullion - neither of which hindered them in asserting themselves to get them.

I'm fine with Europe, numerically, being outcompeted by other parts of the world at the start date, but it shouldn't be a backwater. People aren't numbers and geographical determinism is bullshit; India gave rise to many population-dense, centralized empires that inevitably wound up being conquered by their less centralized, populous neighbors and Europeans. Europe's main challenges should be external, not a lack of inherent development; its greatest states are entering a period of immense political instability and are more concerned with fighting each other than the horse neighbors and their anatolian rape babies chomping away at the east or the frequent isolated incidents in the Mediterranean that occasionally get as far north as Iceland, while the Black Death is threatening to undo the demographic achievements of the High Middle Ages.
That makes me worried. There’s a reason the bigness of China and India was worthless for protecting them. And Christianity (I assume there’s a mechanic for the slave trade) is a big part of Europe’s constant social and technological progress.
I'm fine with Christianity offering less immediate bonuses if it offsets it with powerful, slow-burn rewards - stuff to improve technological progress and population growth over time that compounds instead of just offering quick gains through yearly raiding or pronouncing political stability through divine mandate.
 
Technological advancement?

Europe's advantage in the game seems to be institutions that spiral out into technology.

Generalist argues that technology is easier to get than the population and resources because of how the centralization system of the game is designed. The gimmick of his channel is autistic min-maxxing with graphs+charts so he's looking at it through the lens of pushing the mechanics to the limits and cheese. Its very unlikely that Europe will be be too weak to do anything in the rest of the world.

My personal concern is that technology will be too easy for India and China to get access to. There is a sweet spot where these places should usually be too difficult to conquer, but also still be behind technologically and unable to influence the rest of the world like Europe.
 
There’s a body of theory I follow for real world history interpretation and a big part of it is that hegemonic land empires, especially steppe adjacent, are toxic to technological progress.

Every government has to grapple with the fact that its power comes directly from its ability to act as a clearinghouse of influence. There is no “kings power” because that’s just the generals power and the church’s power and the bureaucrats power and so on, and each of those has their own subordinates, down to the individual peasant. all he does is situate himself in a network where he can coordinate these people in a way that pays off for all, as well as leverage terror from one group against another. The king is also competing against his rivals who could, by playing this game better than him, replace him, so there is always a pressure towards the elite doing what they want.

In a highly competitive state system with good defensive terrain - Europe - the state has to be somewhat well run to survive, but if it’s administered somewhat well, it’s guaranteed to survive, so these countries competition constantly sharpens them. You naturally get a tendency, a long arc, from despotism to constitutional monarchies to mass democracies.

The Eurasian land empire doesn’t have this. It grows so big that it destroys every viable threat, except for the existential and unstoppable threat of the steppe, and as a state gets bigger keeping a stable coalition gets harder. So the land empire naturally prioritizes internal stability over external power projection.

Lastly, technological and social progress is inherently disruptive to internal stability.

Where Christianity factors in is science being a Christian project (although that doesn’t really pay off in a meaningful, practical way until the Industrial Revolutions) and in creating alternative power structures that made hegemonic empire even harder. I personally like Orthodoxy more than Catholicism, but the Orthodox world rotted in part because its churches were organs of state power instead of parallel institutions. Protestantism later had cultural differences, but also tended to decentralize power even more.

One question is what the player is even trying to do in these games. (Well, the real answer is blob or roleplay, but I like it when games are well designed to tell a story through mechanics, like industrialization and modernization in Victoria II.) What do you aspire to be by the end, exactly? I assume Spain, Britain or France. Spain was like a maritime empire with the bad characteristics of an Eurasian land empire. It was wonderful at propagating itself and its religion, better than anybody, but if you want you could take its utter collapse by the end as failure. France defined at least one vision of what modernity looked like in the end and NEARLY won. Britains empire wasn’t that special in EU’s timespan (India + backwaters), but it had the best internal health. A stable, robust and rich society that emerged from the first colonial era ready to build even bigger empires in the future.

These are like diverging paths/goals:
Cultural propagation/universal monarchy (wide)
Social cultivation (tall)

And what Napoleonic France tried to do was like a near-successful hybrid: a missionary empire forcedly exporting its system but not its language/race/religion.

China is a loser country for losers.
 
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