Pengo Q&A - Ask Pengo/Hatun questions about Glip and Floraverse here

[Sunny-D]

Phew @Hatun I have less to say in response to any specific point and more just to echo the sentiment that - you seem like a cool, thoughtful dude, be careful. Also, anything you can elaborate on the subject of PK getting professional help, because from the sound of it that's something that you've advocated and would recognize as essential if even the slimmest chance of change or improvement were possible, and not to get all internet armchair-diagnosis but it'd probably have to be a therapist well versed in personality disorders.

If PK's unwilling for whatever reason to shut down the server entirely then at the very least it would probably have to be delineated what purpose it's supposed to serve. Is it meant to be for close personal friends? Then some level of venting and discussion of personal issues would be reasonable. Is it meant to be for fans of her webcomic, including minors? Then it would need to be run in a far more impersonal and professional manner. Is it meant to be some sort of mass unqualified group therapy circlejerk cult thing, where everyone is encouraged or obligated to work through difficult emotions publicly? Then that's unacceptable and could never be healthy under any circumstances. PK seems to be treating it like a combination of all three simultaneously. Whether that's out of malicious self-serving narcissism, or giving her the benefit of the doubt that it's just ignorance and mismanagement, the end result is the same, it's like a perfect formula for people to inevitably get hurt. If PK doesn't understand the comparisons to cult behavior and attack therapy, or takes those things as ridiculous unfounded insults, then that dynamic is probably not going to change.

 

[Hatun]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm a little concerned at the way you keep referring to Glip and Eevee's behavior as "impulsive." Glip and Eevee's habit of going off on minors and critics -- and Eevee's consistent need to chime in when pedophilia is being discussed -- is consistent and has been going on for years. That's not impulsive, that's something else entirely.

It doesn't sound like you're helping them be better people, it sounds like you're -- unintentionally -- teaching them to be better at hiding it. Thankfully, it's not working.

I don't disagree that the behavior is consistent, but I still think part of it relates to impulsivity.
On a much smaller scale, if you hate the color orange and someone asks if their orange dress looks nice on them, your first internal reaction may be "wow it's awful" while your actual reaction, after recognizing all the social, emotional, moral, etc weight your response can have would be much more polite.
This IMO especially applies to Eevee's obsession with talking about pedophilia and underage sexuality. She's been used by adults when she was a minor, and revolves her characters and art a lot around her fetishes and sexual needs.
I think Eevee doesn't really understand that her obsession with this relates to trauma and trying to process it, and instead she goes on to tweet about this and that constantly. As far as I know, Eevee wants to go to therapy, but hasn't been able to yet.

I guess I consider "impulsive" to mean "immediately feeling the need to focus on this topic regardless of norms or health concerns, often without fully understanding the action/words or their impact" which is something I have seen often with trauma, as opposed to impulsivity being something like just doing something wildly out of character.

That's my two cents though, and I respect if you disagree. Regardless of what causes the behavior, it needs to stop as soon as possible.

I mean I guess it has been 6 continuous years of this shit

and also how they jumped to punish someone who vented about twee being transphobic and predatory towards them even though they'd been bragging about raping people prior

and how they jumped to defend ommy when a person outed them as having sexually abused them as a minor only to oust them when they posted server logs to the farms

I actually e-mailed PK immediately about the ommy thing, as ommy has interacted in a sexually predatory way to a friend of mine (who is unrelated to the person who spoke about them originally). I was upset with them immediately deciding to defend him, as though people always lie about their claims and as though they hadn't learned anything with Marl.
PK has not talked to me much about Twee except more recently regarding Twee's attempts to apologize, which revealed Twee had actually shared artwork of underage characters (like toddler age or something?) to a minor, and when confronted Twee argued that the minor had wanted to see it first. Twee seems like someone who absolutely should have been banned immediately, and it's horrible that PK acted that way.

I respect you as a person and an artist, @Hatun, but I'm going to do something a bit rude and be an armchair therapist for a moment.
[...]
I could see myself feeling heroic as I reach out a helping hand to a person who has no one left to help them. And how it might feel good to be the only one who can change them.
I admit that I might be projecting on you too much here. And maybe your psych has brought this up to you already. But just in case they haven't, I thought I should say something... not to attack you, but as a kind of heads-up. If this sounds accurate, just be careful and keep tabs on your own thoughts and feelings so that you don't get in too deep (as others have warned).

While I understand where this is coming from, I don't think it's very accurate. Especially the idea of feeling I am heroic and the only one left to help them. Honestly, I feel PK has much more than I do. They survive on their artwork, they have multiple partners, own a house and have many animals. They do have a decade+ of trauma and they have this thread and many people who despise them, and I don't want to underplay how that may affect someone, but overall they have people who greatly care about them, who support them emotionally and financially, and they have the resources if they wanted to to get professional help.

I do not really feel like I am some hero swooping in. Often, I feel like the opposite, like I have to be a bearer of bad news to talk to PK about something their friends all agree is fine, when I do not think it is. I won't really overshare about my life, but in regards to PK, I am still an outsider though I talk to them.
I do feel that being an outsider helps me in trying to help them, but the reward there isn't... I don't know. It's not that I feel extremely validated from PK; if that was the case I would just jump into flora hook, line, and sinker. I am not ignorant to the fact that, if I wanted to, I could very quickly and easily integrate into the flora scene and be held in high regard, similarly to how it once was when I helped with PMD-E. I do not want this at all. In fact, it is something I explicit would hate to happen and causes me stress to think about. I do not want to be held up highly by the flora community nor rewarded for attempting to do what I think I should be doing (helping Marl get in jail and prevent future harm).

I suppose the benefit relates again to being someone I wished I had had.
PK did not understand my concerns when I knew them in 2013, and hurt me greatly, as did their friends. If there had been someone that PK had been willing to listen to and had been willing to talk to PK about how at least some of my concerns were valid, I would have sincerely appreciated that.
Hell, if PK had someone like that earlier, Marl would have been kicked out faster.

Flora will continue with or without me here, and I suppose the benefit in me being here is trying to make concerns be acknowledged/heard.

What this says to the fans is this: "only the most unhinged and mentally broken people get the honor of being noticed by Glip-senpai. I need to be the most crazy, damaged person I can, and dump all my issues on Glip and co, and then I too can be famous!" Glip may mean well, but their current method ensures they will never get a moment of peace. Their server doesn't fix dysfunction, it encourages it, and it will continue to do so as long as being mentally ill gets attention and special drawings from the higher-ups.

This is an incredibly fantastic paragraph, thank you. It summarizes the problems I have with the server and scenes as a concept. I have told PK and explained to them that their work often attracts people who are emotionally unstable and they agreed, though I could not word it as well as this. Hatred is closely linked emotionally to love (as both tend to call upon passion), and even if the attention PK gives through scenes is negative, it is still attention. It also reinforces the feelings PK had felt, as opposed to fully reanalyzing them. I can understand scenes as a concept for one-on-one discussion, as a tool to say "I need to talk to you about something but I feel stressed to do so, and I want to do so in a situation where it is approved and calm", but the scenes do not seem to follow that very often and instead enable group polarization. I genuinely believe PK wants them to be a positive tool, but if the mods cannot be unbiased and calm even in the most extreme situations, it needs to be put to the side.

The whole thing about "losing fan interaction" is a blatant red herring. Glip will not lose their whole fanbase if they stop these shitty scenes. In fact, they will gain interaction, and decrease harm, if they quit this small-scale drama and go back to the more hands-off, large-scale community events that PMD-E and early Flora had. Stop doing this sad attempt of one-on-one therapy and let everyone participate in fun, engaging little tasks for points or whatever.

I agree, though I am sorry to propose a red herring. I meant less if PK were to quit scenes and more if PK were to delete their server and any direct interaction completely. However, you are right that I began to take the thought off-topic in general. I definitely agree that is a way to engage in a more positive and hands-off manner, and I do recall early Flora did this as well.

I will try to say this as kindly as I can... even if you were to, personally, put Marl behind bars, you would not find the redemption you're looking for. You won't find healing by immersing yourself in this toxic cesspool of human beings, and you have no responsibility to try and solve their problems. Please stay safe, you seem like a genuinely good person and I want to see you find happiness and peace.

Thank you for taking the time to word this positively. I don't mind if there are things people say that are harsh or worded angrily though, as I know I'm basically stepping into a situation where people have been dealing with PKs harm for years and I understand that can lead to pain and anger. Your, and others here on the thread, reactions are alright by me.

You are right I have no responsibility to try, but I suppose in the end, I feel that I would regret not trying much more than trying.
I don't want to come off like I am saying that I am totally safe and fine and so on; I really do understand the concerns people have. I just have always felt that if I can do something, then I should. If I can afford to do something for someone else (or in this case, for many victims), then I should at least try to.
I do take breaks when I can, but... I guess I cannot shake the feeling that victims having been hurt and Marl hurting others are an extreme priority. I look at my comics or work and think "if this did not exist, the world would not be much worse or better" but when I look at real tangible pain people are experiencing it's very easy to think "the world would be much better if these people could heal" and when I think of Marl it's easy to think "the world would be much better if he was not able to hurt others."
I guess it is hard to consider priorities beyond that. I do not really have much going on in my life except helping my household during this COVID stuff. I don't really produce much of objective value or happiness for others. I know I do not "need" to, I don't need to devote my life to serving others without question or something. But I would like to make a positive change if possible. If not possible, then again, I at least tried.

Sorry, I must sound repetitive, and no one needs to believe me in my own thoughts about PK and their willingness to improve or not, I don't want to convince anyone. I am sure there will eventually be a point where I will either have to quit attempting to help because I feel that nothing is advancing even slightly and that PK is no longer receptive to my concerns, or possibly (and dear god, hopefully) at some point things are going better, but I simply become busy and unable to continue.
If that time comes, I'll step back. I don't intend on becoming PK's permanent PR spokesman. I currently have the energy and desire to attempt to focus on this situation, and so I do.
Again, I really appreciate the well wishes, and will do my best to take concerns to heart.

 

[Knife Cat]

IRT the bdsm dom commissions

I don't think PK should be doing these things, but I also can't argue with the fact that people pay for much worse stuff for much higher prices all over the internet, and it's their choice.

Spoiler: Long shit unpacking this comment

It is extremely hard for me to take this seriously and not see this as a what-about-ism.

Not only does other individuals creating and selling worse artwork on the internet-namely CP, incest, and beastiality content much more graphic and traumatizing than the illustrations in question- not automatically make these commissions okay or non problematic in comparison, but this sentiment right here brushes off the fact Glip has made countless examples of this exact content and SOLD THEM AS COMMISSIONS including those disgusting kangaskan reverse-pregnancy kink picture sets, the N rape picture, the dozens upon dozens of pokemon x trainer art, and more. There are DOZENS of victims of not just Marl, but PK as well who were groomed with their artwork and indoctrinated into these communities because they have a HISTORY of exposing minors to this content, whether its directly or indirectly as they claim.

I know you’ve stated this previously, i think in your doc against marl if i remember correctly, that you dont agree with Glip having made that type of content and I don’t disbelieve you when you say that, nor do i discredit the trauma you or other victims of Marl have experienced. What you and the others experienced is undefendable and vile and i sympathize with you all. But Marl isnt the only one with a hand in the grooming and sexual abuse. You aknowledge Glip fucked up on their part and didnt believe the victims, but they have yet to give any real, genuine, thorough statement about the fact they played a part in others being groomed and traumatized just by virtue of creating that artwork in the first place.

They are so adamant about trying to clear their name and say that they had nothing to do with the shit Marl did or that they didnt know what he was doing to the other victims, and while i’m too skeptical to believe that or not at this point i straight up think it is abundantly transparent that in their apology doc they completely glossed over the artwork they created and used the excuse of “i was poor and dont make that shit anymore” to push those concerns aside. Its dismissive, its inconsiderate, its skirting responsibility, and as one of the people who was exposed to their shit as a minor its really fucking offensive for them to pretend that they had no fucking hand in harming people even outside of Marl. I would have expected better from them because of the fact they are a grooming victim themselves and hoped they would understand where these folks were coming from were it not for the fact i’ve completely lost faith in them since the BF logs dropped years ago. Those commissions were just further confirmation to me that they genuinely dont understand or dont care about power imbalances and how not to interact with their fanbase.

 

[Hatun]

Phew @Hatun I have less to say in response to any specific point and more just to echo the sentiment that - you seem like a cool, thoughtful dude, be careful. Also, anything you can elaborate on the subject of PK getting professional help, because from the sound of it that's something that you've advocated and would recognize as essential if even the slimmest chance of change or improvement were possible, and not to get all internet armchair-diagnosis but it'd probably have to be a therapist well versed in personality disorders.

I know PK has offered to go to therapy with Eevee, and that Eevee genuinely wants to go to therapy, but COVID and a variety of other problems have made it more difficult.
I do not push it upon PK too harshly to avoid adding to their trauma in regards to therapy.

It is extremely hard for me to take this seriously and not see this as a what-about-ism.

Not only does other individuals creating and selling worse artwork on the internet-namely CP, incest, and beastiality content much more graphic and traumatizing than the illustrations in question- not automatically make these commissions okay or non problematic in comparison, but this sentiment right here brushes off the fact Glip has made countless examples of this exact content and SOLD THEM AS COMMISSIONS including those disgusting kangaskan reverse-pregnancy kink picture sets, the N rape picture, the dozens upon dozens of pokemon x trainer art, and more. There are DOZENS of victims of not just Marl, but PK as well who were groomed with their artwork and indoctrinated into these communities because they have a HISTORY of exposing minors to this content, whether its directly or indirectly as they claim.

I recognize that PK has their own victims, and I'm sorry to downplay it. It is very late here, so I should have probably waited before replying to give that topic more in-depth attention. It is less that I think that horrible things like CP, beastiality, incest, etc existing justifies the existence of these BDSM commissions, but rather that I cannot make an argument against these specific commissions that doesn't take away from the autonomy of a commissioner. There are artists who draw gore for commissioners of their (the commissioners) own stand-ins. While I personally don't agree with this, I also don't know how to make the argument that these people should not spend money on this if it is something they want.
I think that PK purposefully making it some kind of open vulnerability test given their history is concerning, and that they shouldn't just be so bold to immediately jump into advertising commission ideas that essentially forge quick intimacy via sharing trauma and having it drawn out, but again, I cannot fault commissioners if they ultimately want it, pay for it, and receive it.
I guess I see it as two separate things:
The first being the fact that PK even proposed these kind of commissions, which I am concerned about and agree this is something that shouldn't just be willy nilly tossed into their community like it's a perfectly normal idea to take commissions over.
The second being the idea that the commissioners took PK up on the commissions at all, which is what my comment was more directed towards. The buyers wanting it doesn't erase the fact that it was still questionable for PK to even bring up, considering their past history and all the concerns given with scenes and the server.

But Marl isnt the only one with a hand in the grooming and sexual abuse. You aknowledge Glip fucked up on their part and didnt believe the victims, but they have yet to give any real, genuine, thorough statement about the fact they played a part in others being groomed and traumatized just by virtue of creating that artwork in the first place.
[...] they completely glossed over the artwork they created and used the excuse of “i was poor and dont make that shit anymore” to push those concerns aside. Its dismissive, its inconsiderate, its skirting responsibility, and as one of the people who was exposed to their shit as a minor its really fucking offensive for them to pretend that they had no fucking hand in harming people even outside of Marl. I would have expected better from them because of the fact they are a grooming victim themselves and hoped they would understand where these folks were coming from were it not for the fact i’ve completely lost faith in them since the BF logs dropped years ago. Those commissions were just further confirmation to me that they genuinely dont understand or dont care about power imbalances and how not to interact with their fanbase.

I ask the following genuinely, not with any sarcasm or anger or such: Is there a way you feel would be more sincere/productive in apologizing for the artwork?
I accept that the apology doc has problems and has hurt certain people more than it has helped (I have spoken to some about this in the past), so I don't deny that at all, and if you wish to share more specifics I am always willing to listen. I want to know and understand that which will help people who were hurt.

When writing that, PK and I had spoken about apologizing for the artwork drawn, and I did try to make sure they acknowledge they drew those things regardless of intention and, at the time, I also felt that if PK simply said "I am sorry for drawing all of this, it was wrong" with no further discussion, then it could also be taken poorly. I had thought that expressing that they no longer drew that was a positive as it shows they do not want to continue to hurt others through that artwork. In regards to them explaining they were poor and a minor when starting NSFW comms, I had asked a third party (who is not friends with PK but instead had been harmed by them in the past) for things people still bring up that they believed would need apologies or explanations, to which the baby khanga art and other pieces were suggested. This third party had felt some closure when reading the draft PK had written in regards to that, so we had thought it was alright.

When people apologize to me, I tend to want to know what led up to the action, but I can see this has not helped in this particular instance and instead has harmed you and others. I am sorry for my role in hurting you and those like you who were exposed to that artwork, and for not seeking other opinions at the time. Despite my misguided attempt to help with that doc, I appreciate that you've taken the time now to express the way it made you feel.

 

[FrickleMyPickle]

Honestly, I feel PK has much more than I do. They survive on their artwork, they have multiple partners, own a house and have many animals. They do have a decade+ of trauma and they have this thread and many people who despise them, and I don't want to underplay how that may affect someone, but overall they have people who greatly care about them, who support them emotionally and financially, and they have the resources if they wanted to to get professional help.

Regardless of your thoughts on PK (and Eevee's) motives and whether this whole venture of yours is a good idea, you seem like a good person who tries to be empathetic and kind to others and find a solution to problems.

Meanwhile, PK is an abusive narcissist who is supported emotionally and financially by her cruelty towards others, in lieu of any kind of friendship has a revolving door of predators and sex pests, and spends her days sitting around the cat shit smeared house she shares with her pedophile husband while saying and doing things that cause the two of them to be more and more despised by the day.

Yeah, I think you got the better end of the bargain.

 

[Questionable Ceviche]

I agree with you, I think it's very easy to accidentally cultivate an echo chamber, and it doesn't go away just because Marl is gone. However, as an artist who is basically isolated, I can also see how... NOT interacting with fans is basically a death sentence in today's day and age. People no longer expect art from an artist, but rather a personality show as well. It's a bit of a tangent, but I imagine part of the concern is also money loss from essentially making it almost impossible to interact.

This is the exact thing that needs to happen. Her being extremely online all the time, running an echo chamber Discord filled with damaged yes-men enablers and sex pests, all while spilling intimate details of not only her personal life but the lives of her fans is not the kind of environment that fosters self-introspection and positive change. She's shown over and over that she does not have the capability to interact with a fan community in a healthy way, much less run one.

A good friend will tell you when you fuck up. That's a hard thing to do, and the people in your life who care about you enough to do that are treasures. The people she surrounds herself with won't do that. They praise her, tell her she's magnificent, and back her up on everything she does. That Hare scene was a prime example of that. They allow her to abuse and excuse her way out of things. They enable the absolute worst parts of her personality while vilifying people who she hurts. She allows people who she knows are sex pests to run rampant in her community, and she prioritizes their feelings over the feelings of the people they victimize. Her unwillingness to take out the trash validates their bad behavior, and it makes her apologies look weak and meaningless. This isn't a single one-off. It keeps happening, over and over and over again. We can't take anything she says seriously because her words and her behavior don't match.

Honestly, Eevee needs to get a fucking job so his wife can take a long break from the internet and figure her life out. It feels good to constantly be told how great and wonderful she is. It strokes her ego and absolves her of responsibility. Of course she won't want to leave. As it stands right now, she won't be able to have a meaningful artistic career without taking some drastic action to shop doing all the shitty stuff she keeps doing. She's hurt too many feelings and been so radioactive over such a long period that no legitimate company/publisher/professional organization wants anything to do with her. She's cannibalizing her future so she can have her feel-good present.

 

[false prophet medea]

I know I’ve brought it up to you before Pengo but I can’t help but reiterate how chilling it is that Glip keeps acting like an authority on trauma and healing, when they have no qualifications and haven’t even healed themselves. There’s a reason that even therapists can’t diagnose themselves. But the fact Glip has a vulnerable audience already and elevates themself to a position of knowing how to handle such personal and intimate information. The BDSM commissions are a symptom of this and as an onlooker it’s kind of horrifying

 

[Herr Flick]

@Hatun Hello, Pengo. As others have said, you seem like a person whose heart is in the right place. But you have essentially given yourself up to be used and spent out by one of the most damaging personalities on the internet, a fact that I don't think either of you realize.

I do take breaks when I can, but... I guess I cannot shake the feeling that victims having been hurt and Marl hurting others are an extreme priority. I look at my comics or work and think "if this did not exist, the world would not be much worse or better" but when I look at real tangible pain people are experiencing it's very easy to think "the world would be much better if these people could heal" and when I think of Marl it's easy to think "the world would be much better if he was not able to hurt others."
I guess it is hard to consider priorities beyond that. I do not really have much going on in my life except helping my household during this COVID stuff. I don't really produce much of objective value or happiness for others. I know I do not "need" to, I don't need to devote my life to serving others without question or something. But I would like to make a positive change if possible. If not possible, then again, I at least tried.

You are an extremely talented artist with a brilliant mind, and it makes me quite sad, actually, to see you say that you place your work in such low regard. Everything about your words here suggest to me that your self-esteem is middling and you seem to think you can't bring any good into the world at all, other than this. That is so very dangerous, because you have basically said--and, I expect, you also believe--that your capacity to do some good is connected intrinsically PK's history of doing and enabling evil, as if this is the only good you can do.

This is not true. You have every right in the world to go and do good in a million other ways, and I have no doubt that you could do it well, too.

To be clear, I'm not saying that your efforts aren't noble or worthwhile. What I am saying is that, while you may be seeing progress in private, none of it is reflecting outward at all; that is to say, no true progress is really being made. In fact, what I am seeing here is a continuation of the game that PK plays without trying, the circle of supply and attention, of reveling in being understood without ever understanding anyone else. This thread has gone over things she could do, so many times, to fix things--sometimes in cruel words, yes, but other times in very thought out ones, like the ones I am sure you use. They often are as simple as things for her to do or stop doing, which are worth so much more than every apology in the world--apologies are just words, after all. You yourself have said that she doesn't listen to everything you say, or follow every bit of advice you give, even though she knows you are doing it from a selfless place because you have no horse in the race.

She is using you for attention like she uses everyone else, Pengo, and she is dragging you along with the 'we'll put Marl in jail' endgame as a promise that she wants but will never be fulfilled because she knows that, once that is done, she won't get her attention anymore. (I say "knows," but this is not entirely correct; narcissists don't recognize their disorder, they simply act upon it. Call it a manifestation of 'impulsivity.' You must understand that the behavior is never excused by the fact that it comes naturally.)

Having dealt with, and lived with, many narcissists myself, and having been in your exact position before, reading your posts is like looking back at how I used to think and act as recently as five years ago. In the end, this was very dangerous to me. I did not escape a lifelong trap that mangled me down to the bones of my soul until I realized that trying to help a narcissist, especially a narcissist whose evils I felt I could mitigate, was only an exercise in self-destruction, a sacrifice of myself upon their altar of narcissistic supply.

What I am trying to say is: please do not tie your idea of your own goodness to such a wretched tangle of manipulators and pedophiles, Pengo. You are worth more than that. PK does not deserve you. The victims have already been harmed, hardened, and learned their lesson, and right now, your efforts have done nothing to stop more of them from being made, and that is the thing that matters the most. You might believe they will eventually, but I'm not so sure. For now, though, anyone with eyes to see can tell that you are throwing your time and energy into a void in order to try to fill one in yourself.

 

[Knife Cat]

It is less that I think that horrible things like CP, beastiality, incest, etc existing justifies the existence of these BDSM commissions, but rather that I cannot make an argument against these specific commissions that doesn't take away from the autonomy of a commissioner. There are artists who draw gore for commissioners of their (the commissioners) own stand-ins. While I personally don't agree with this, I also don't know how to make the argument that these people should not spend money on this if it is something they want.

Again, just because there is a demand does not mean it is okay to supply. Just because there are slews of pedophiles willing to pay top dollar for CP does not mean you should stoop so low as to providing that type of content to these individuals. Just because these people “consented” to the commissions- and i say that with quotes because there is an extreme power pay going on here and a severe misuse of one’s trauma and trust to the point any spoken consent is void of meaning- does not mean it absolves responsibility on Glip here. They should not have done those commissions and used peoples TRAUMA to romanticize and sexualize their commissioner’s experiences. people paying money for these commissions and wanting Glip to dom them isnt just a matter of taste, its an abuse of power that Glip INTRODUCED as an idea to them that people latched onto because as we’ve all stated, people want to be close to Glip and get their attention. Glip coming up with the idea of these commissions, offering them to their abused and vulnerable fans in their closed off community, and then taking their money for them is downright creepy. I don’t care that people wanted it and that point alone is never going to make it okay. Though im hesitant to make this comparison because these people are legal adults, it gives me grooming vibes. It genuinely feels like grooming tactics of sprinkling in problematic shit but with rose colored glasses to make it not look bad and the people engaging dont realize its harmful.

I had asked a third party (who is not friends with PK but instead had been harmed by them in the past) for things people still bring up that they believed would need apologies or explanations, to which the baby khanga art and other pieces were suggested. This third party had felt some closure when reading the draft PK had written in regards to that, so we had thought it was alright.

One victim’s choice to accept an apology is theirs and theirs alone. That doesnt mean others should accept it, that the party in question should feel absolved of guilt or responsibility since one person was fine with it, and especially forgetting to take into account everyone’s views on the situation when theres victims who came here since Glip writes off the entirety of the Farms as abusers and a hivemind. I can’t speak for the others here and i dont know @sad cowboy cat nor their relationship to the community besides the fact we both were harmed by Glip’s abuse art, but i was a former fan that came here in 2018 because it was literally impossible to talk to Glip and co. about the situation without vitriol and harassment. Anyone who questioned their role in the abuses Marl committed was accused of being a KF spy or a stalker or some bullshit. We had NO INFORMATION and no explanation for the logs, the write off of the grooming victims, nothing. Coming here and talking about it with others was the only place where people weren’t kissing Glip’s ass and excusing their role in harm, the only place where vague “i didn’t know anything about Marl’s dogfucking” from Glip was actually scrutinized and where the veil of gaslighting wasn’t taking place. It was a place outside of the communities Glip tried to control the narrative of and that lack of their oversight was safer than their own spaces.

To continue to write off all KF members as racist homophobic shitholes when some of us were genuinely people in their community before shit hit the fan is disingenuine and rewritting the narrative. This thread has a lot of exceptions to the rest of KF because unlike other threads on this site that are rampant with handfuls trolls attacking folks for seemingly no reason, we HAVE a reason to be angry and disgusted with the people this thread is focussed on. These are SERIOUS allegations and abuses that are documented and proven true. This thread has brought outside users who normally would never venture onto this site together because Glip made us feel so unsafe and unheard that a place as dark and dank as KF was the one place we could be heard. Just because we ventured here doesnt make our experiences less valid, and me not forgiving or wanting Glip’s excuses for drawing rape art and romanticizing grooming shouldn’t be questioned on their end just because I’m posting from KF.

I ask the following genuinely, not with any sarcasm or anger or such: Is there a way you feel would be more sincere/productive in apologizing for the artwork?
I accept that the apology doc has problems and has hurt certain people more than it has helped (I have spoken to some about this in the past), so I don't deny that at all, and if you wish to share more specifics I am always willing to listen. I want to know and understand that which will help people who were hurt.

Here is what Glip can do.

Spoiler: Long list of steps to not be an absolute walnut

1. Stop fucking doing these commissions where you put your community member’s self inserts into a piece and use their abuse to rewrite their experiences and sexualize it. You are not a therapist, you are an artist who has been abused. Just because you are abused does not make you an expert on mental health and you do not understand how harmful this kind of romanticizing of abuse is to someone. Just because it made you not have to think about the shit Marl did to you doesnt mean its okay for you to impose that on others. Not to arm chair psychology, but it didn‘t help you then and continuing to hold on to that coping mechanism now when you’re not being abused by him anymore is only continuously traumatizing you and desensitizing you to those topics so you don’t think theres any harm to it.
2. Address EVERYONE. BF, Lain, and Pengo are the main victims here but there are so many others that are not being heard. We just saw logs of @sad cowboy cat ‘s scene come out and dms between the two of them where Glip wrote off their experiences and made excuses. They were scrutinized because of being from KF and i dont believe for a second that Glip didn’t know it because they slapped a big red KFER role onto them the second they were in the server INVITING that kind of harassment. If you can’t see us as victims or people because we posted on this website, you aren’t genuinely sorry, nor do you understand the hurt you’ve caused.
3. Stop turning this situation into comics fodder. This drama isn’t a memoir comic. These are real people being victimized and abused by a pedophile animal fucker. When you make this into a story, it makes us feel like you arent taking it seriously and that this is all just a play for you. We don’t want to see this turned into fuel for your brand or your website or your art or your community. We want you to stop trying to tie this into your webcomic because this is about WAY more than JUST you. Stop putting Pengo in your self pitying exploratory artwork, because hes stated here it makes him uncomfortable. If you’re going to use comics and art to explore your feelings and work out how you feel about the situation, stop posting it online especially when it deals with this situation and multiple other people. We don’t appreciate being used as background characters and antagonists in your work and its disrespectful to what we all dealt with to make this into a visual novel.
4. For gods sake take a minute to stop making it about yourself. I UNDERSTAND you were at the center of Marl’s abuse. I UNDERSTAND you went through some of the worst of his manipulation and sexual deviancy. But this is not a contest. This is not an oppression olympics of who had it worst. Why we can’t have an open discussion about how he hurt ALL of us and we have to continuously be reminded you had the first place ribbon for being his prime victim is beyond me. No one genuine is saying you weren’t abused, and no one is forgetting about the things you went through. But you need to stop putting yourself in the forefront of this discussion and acting like you were the Head Victim TM. You have a lot of say and a larger voice since you lived with Marl for years, were married to him, and were seeing first hand how he committed his atrocities. But you need to sit the fuck down and let others speak our truths to say how we felt and how we were victims, not just by Marl but by You. And not in the flora server during a community controlled scene, on our OWN ACCORD and by our OWN VOLITION.
5. GENUINELY ACKNOWLEDGE YOU HAD A ROLE IN THIS AND ARE AT FAULT FOR THE ABUSES YOU COMMITTED. You weren’t the one trying to statutory rape children. You weren’t the one who fucked Apollo. You weren’t the one who groomed BF, Lain, or Pengo. But you WERE an artist who created pedophilic, beatiality, and rape artwork. You were someone who said “sorry something i drew made you have a bad feeling” in response to people speaking about how that artwork was used to groom and sexually abuse them. You were a victimizing, rape apologist who excused Marl’s actions and said that children were lying to ruin your life, as an adult. You let your past traumas cloud your judgement and made snap decisions and impressions on the people calling you two out instead of listening to them and hearing their stories. You made people in your community feel like traitors and abusers for doubting you and your clique and then publicly shamed them or ostracized people breaking ranks when they said anything about the situation that didn’t absolve you of responsibility or believe your line of events. Events that you LIED about. Events there we knew happened since the logs came out in 2018 that you continued to deny until you realized you couldn’t run from it any longer. You hurt so many people. For YEARS. And you still havent taken that responsibility or come to understand how you played a role in hurting these people.
6. Get therapy. Please. Please please please. Talk to a professional and stay offline if you can while you work through things. I understand its scary talking to a professional, and that you’ve had bad experiences with therapists in the past, but you NEED TO DO THIS if you want any chance at healing. If Pengo going through therapy and getting Glip to come out and admit they were wrong is any show of success, you would realize how much it will help you. If i’m to believe you all are working on sending Marl to jail and you’re concerned about getting implicated in things, i can understand that fear but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. You need to unpack everything, and i mean EVERYTHING. Doing floraverse scenes and continuing to garner validation and attention from your community is not helping you. You need to go into recovery and begin your journey of healing, because as much as you SAY you feel better and healthier, you aren’t making strides and working through the trauma in a healthy way and a proffessional who can guide you properly will help so much more than a bunch of also mentally ill teens and adult who are probably not equipped with a psychology degree and a specialty in trauma. Also airing out this trauma is doing more harm than good. You all need to learn to separate your personal life from your online personas. Not every waking thought or experience from your daily lives needs to be shared with the internet, and part of why you have such severe paranoia and fear is because you havent learned from having a nearly 2k page long thread about you on the internet combing through your posts. make a private twitter for your ramblings and venting where only your friends can access or something, get a journal. Just stop seeking validation from strangers on the internet.
7. Follow through on getting Marl arrested. This is the biggest thing you can do to redeem yourself. Just fight tooth and fucking nail to get that pedophile freak behind bars and make him rot for the rest of his miserable life. He is the root of the issues. Without Marl, most if not all of these problems would have never happened. He is the one abuser you have the power to destroy. With how much you speak of hating him and hating abusers, this is the thing you can do to prove it. So many victims still feel you harbored and hid him like a fugitive purposefully to avoid any consequences. Even if it was without intent, you were complicit in him not being caught. You want everyone’s forgiveness? Put that motherfucker in prison and finally end this cycle of pain.

i wasnt intending on this becoming this long but honestly i think Glip needs to have this spelled out for them if theyre genuine about making a change. Lots of folks think theyre a lost cause and ive lost a lot of trust and sympathy in them for all of this, but maybe im naive like you too, Pengo. still, posting a list of shit they can do to not be a complete jerk and gain people’s trust again is a lot less invasive and direct than what you’re doing. Do what you will with this.

 

[Papertowelroll]

@Hatun A brief addendum to my last post - these are the steps to actual, genuine change of an abuser, straight from that book. Glip has not, to my knowledge, done these yet, or has done the opposite of them. This is geared "towards" an abused spouse but applies to all of Glip's victims.

1. Admit fully to their history of psychological, sexual, and physical abusiveness. Denial and minimizing need to stop, including discrediting your memory of what happened.

2. Acknowledge that the abuse was wrong, unconditionally.

3. Acknowledge that their behavior was a choice, not a loss of control. For example, they need to recognize that there is a moment during each incident at which they give himself permission to become abusive and that they choose how far to let themself go.

4. Recognize the effects their abuse has had, and show empathy for those. They need to talk in detail about the short-and long-term impact that the abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, and loss of freedom and other rights. And they need to do this without reverting to feeling sorry for himself or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.

5. Identify in detail their pattern of controlling behaviors and entitled attitudes. They need to speak in detail about the day-to-day tactics of abuse they have used. Equally important, they must be able to identify underlying beliefs and values that have driven those behaviors.

6. Develop respectful behaviors and attitudes to replace the abusive ones.

7. Reevaluate their distorted image of you [or others], replacing it with a more positive and empathic view. They have to recognize that they have had mental habits of focusing on and exaggerating their grievances against you and their perceptions of your weaknesses.

8. Make amends for the damage they have done. They can start to make up by being consistently kind and supportive, talking with people whom he has misled in regard to the abuse and admitting to them that he lied, and many other steps related to cleaning up the emotional and literal messes that their behavior has caused.

9. Accept the consequences of their actions. They should stop whining about, or blaming you for, problems that are the result of their abuse.

10. Commit to not repeating their abusive behaviors and honor that commitment. If they do backslide, they cannot justify their abusive behaviors by saying, “But I’ve done great for five months; you can’t expect me to be perfect,” as if a good period earned them chips to spend on occasional abuse.

11. Accept the need to give up their privileges and do so. This means saying good-bye to double standards and to being allowed to express anger while you are not.

12. Accept that overcoming abusiveness is likely to be a lifelong process. They at no time can claim that their work is done by saying to you, “I’ve changed but you haven’t,” or complain that they are sick of hearing about their abuse and control and that “it’s time to get past all that.”.

Take note of what I've bolded and underlined - things that Glip has demonstrably not done even when following the "other parts" of the step.

They frequently discredit others' memories constantly, and then when proven undeniably wrong, they talk about how "both sides were right" rather than admitting fault.

You yourself have described their and Eevee's behavior as "impulsive". It is not a "loss of control" once you exit the age of 8. It's a purposeful and constant breaking of appropriate behaviors and others' boundaries.

Glip and Eevee cannot get through a single "apology" or talk about their actions without talking about how hard it's been on them and how sorry and bad they feel.

The last point is the most important. There is no "I'm done being abusive and that's in the past". It is a lifelong process that they haven't even begun yet. Read through the steps and answer honestly - have they done any of these? At any point?

 

[Pronoun Party]

I don't disagree that the behavior is consistent, but I still think part of it relates to impulsivity.
On a much smaller scale, if you hate the color orange and someone asks if their orange dress looks nice on them, your first internal reaction may be "wow it's awful" while your actual reaction, after recognizing all the social, emotional, moral, etc weight your response can have would be much more polite.
This IMO especially applies to Eevee's obsession with talking about pedophilia and underage sexuality. She's been used by adults when she was a minor, and revolves her characters and art a lot around her fetishes and sexual needs.
I think Eevee doesn't really understand that her obsession with this relates to trauma and trying to process it, and instead she goes on to tweet about this and that constantly. As far as I know, Eevee wants to go to therapy, but hasn't been able to yet.

I guess I consider "impulsive" to mean "immediately feeling the need to focus on this topic regardless of norms or health concerns, often without fully understanding the action/words or their impact" which is something I have seen often with trauma, as opposed to impulsivity being something like just doing something wildly out of character.

That's my two cents though, and I respect if you disagree. Regardless of what causes the behavior, it needs to stop as soon as possible.



I actually e-mailed PK immediately about the ommy thing, as ommy has interacted in a sexually predatory way to a friend of mine (who is unrelated to the person who spoke about them originally). I was upset with them immediately deciding to defend him, as though people always lie about their claims and as though they hadn't learned anything with Marl.
PK has not talked to me much about Twee except more recently regarding Twee's attempts to apologize, which revealed Twee had actually shared artwork of underage characters (like toddler age or something?) to a minor, and when confronted Twee argued that the minor had wanted to see it first. Twee seems like someone who absolutely should have been banned immediately, and it's horrible that PK acted that way.



While I understand where this is coming from, I don't think it's very accurate. Especially the idea of feeling I am heroic and the only one left to help them. Honestly, I feel PK has much more than I do. They survive on their artwork, they have multiple partners, own a house and have many animals. They do have a decade+ of trauma and they have this thread and many people who despise them, and I don't want to underplay how that may affect someone, but overall they have people who greatly care about them, who support them emotionally and financially, and they have the resources if they wanted to to get professional help.

I do not really feel like I am some hero swooping in. Often, I feel like the opposite, like I have to be a bearer of bad news to talk to PK about something their friends all agree is fine, when I do not think it is. I won't really overshare about my life, but in regards to PK, I am still an outsider though I talk to them.
I do feel that being an outsider helps me in trying to help them, but the reward there isn't... I don't know. It's not that I feel extremely validated from PK; if that was the case I would just jump into flora hook, line, and sinker. I am not ignorant to the fact that, if I wanted to, I could very quickly and easily integrate into the flora scene and be held in high regard, similarly to how it once was when I helped with PMD-E. I do not want this at all. In fact, it is something I explicit would hate to happen and causes me stress to think about. I do not want to be held up highly by the flora community nor rewarded for attempting to do what I think I should be doing (helping Marl get in jail and prevent future harm).

I suppose the benefit relates again to being someone I wished I had had.
PK did not understand my concerns when I knew them in 2013, and hurt me greatly, as did their friends. If there had been someone that PK had been willing to listen to and had been willing to talk to PK about how at least some of my concerns were valid, I would have sincerely appreciated that.
Hell, if PK had someone like that earlier, Marl would have been kicked out faster.

Flora will continue with or without me here, and I suppose the benefit in me being here is trying to make concerns be acknowledged/heard.



This is an incredibly fantastic paragraph, thank you. It summarizes the problems I have with the server and scenes as a concept. I have told PK and explained to them that their work often attracts people who are emotionally unstable and they agreed, though I could not word it as well as this. Hatred is closely linked emotionally to love (as both tend to call upon passion), and even if the attention PK gives through scenes is negative, it is still attention. It also reinforces the feelings PK had felt, as opposed to fully reanalyzing them. I can understand scenes as a concept for one-on-one discussion, as a tool to say "I need to talk to you about something but I feel stressed to do so, and I want to do so in a situation where it is approved and calm", but the scenes do not seem to follow that very often and instead enable group polarization. I genuinely believe PK wants them to be a positive tool, but if the mods cannot be unbiased and calm even in the most extreme situations, it needs to be put to the side.



I agree, though I am sorry to propose a red herring. I meant less if PK were to quit scenes and more if PK were to delete their server and any direct interaction completely. However, you are right that I began to take the thought off-topic in general. I definitely agree that is a way to engage in a more positive and hands-off manner, and I do recall early Flora did this as well.


Thank you for taking the time to word this positively. I don't mind if there are things people say that are harsh or worded angrily though, as I know I'm basically stepping into a situation where people have been dealing with PKs harm for years and I understand that can lead to pain and anger. Your, and others here on the thread, reactions are alright by me.

You are right I have no responsibility to try, but I suppose in the end, I feel that I would regret not trying much more than trying.
I don't want to come off like I am saying that I am totally safe and fine and so on; I really do understand the concerns people have. I just have always felt that if I can do something, then I should. If I can afford to do something for someone else (or in this case, for many victims), then I should at least try to.
I do take breaks when I can, but... I guess I cannot shake the feeling that victims having been hurt and Marl hurting others are an extreme priority. I look at my comics or work and think "if this did not exist, the world would not be much worse or better" but when I look at real tangible pain people are experiencing it's very easy to think "the world would be much better if these people could heal" and when I think of Marl it's easy to think "the world would be much better if he was not able to hurt others."
I guess it is hard to consider priorities beyond that. I do not really have much going on in my life except helping my household during this COVID stuff. I don't really produce much of objective value or happiness for others. I know I do not "need" to, I don't need to devote my life to serving others without question or something. But I would like to make a positive change if possible. If not possible, then again, I at least tried.

Sorry, I must sound repetitive, and no one needs to believe me in my own thoughts about PK and their willingness to improve or not, I don't want to convince anyone. I am sure there will eventually be a point where I will either have to quit attempting to help because I feel that nothing is advancing even slightly and that PK is no longer receptive to my concerns, or possibly (and dear god, hopefully) at some point things are going better, but I simply become busy and unable to continue.
If that time comes, I'll step back. I don't intend on becoming PK's permanent PR spokesman. I currently have the energy and desire to attempt to focus on this situation, and so I do.
Again, I really appreciate the well wishes, and will do my best to take concerns to heart.

Hey, thanks for taking the time to reply so thoroughly. You've been handling our landslides of giant posts really well. Going to echo the others and say that your talk about feeling like you wouldn't have any positive impact otherwise is heartbreaking and utter bullshit. You have enormous skill and empathy and capacity to do good and it's really sad to see these abusers apparently convincing you that your only value comes from getting dragged back into their games.

But you didn't come here to sit around and have us condescend to you, you came to answer questions and clear up misconceptions. So here's one:

Back when your first callout came out, it seemed that Glip engaged in legal action to make you remove your claims about Marl's dogfucking. But I recall (I'd have to comb this thread for the quotes) Glip claims this never happened and they did not actually take any legal action. What is the real story? Legal action? Just threats? What was going on there.

 

[AConcernedThirdParty2020]

Everyone wrote the relevant walls of text to Pengo already so I'm going to simplify.

Ahem:
Dude, she drew you in her weird cult comic as her thorn headed validation Daddy. Fucking run.

 

[eeeeeeeeeeeee diot]

Popping in here after having lurked in here for a couple of weeks. Everyone is saying the same thing.

Pengo, fucking run, please. We're all begging you. A lot of the people here have dealt with Glip's bullshit. You may think you can change her. You can try. It'll be futile, even if she has actually said she wants to change, because she won't put in the effort.

 

[Pronoun Party]

Going to reply in here even though half the conversation has yet to be moved.

PK did throw a lawsuit my way. They attempted to sue me for $30k in damages. I spoke to a lawyer and we determined that PKs lawsuit was incredibly poorly done (they got my name wrong, claimed I was a resident of Nevada when I've never been, so on) and basically entirely able to be thrown out. They could however potentially re-do the lawsuit with the correct information, so it was better for me to just say and do nothing... which I did for years.
Truthfully, there was a part of me that wanted to take it all to court because I knew Marl would be shitting bricks. I did not have the money to do so, nor the time nor mental health however.

I think they didn't claim it never happened, but rather their friends/fans kept saying it never happened. (If they claimed it never happened though I'd love to see that)
I recall someone getting into a bicker exchange on twitter wherein they were like Where is the PROOF that PK sued Pengo hm????
So I stepped in like hi, yes PK sued me this is a real thing that happened.


PK claims that in 2016 they dropped the case due to me apologizing and us discussing things in email.

I looked into it more and it does indeed seem to be the fanbase who has been spreading the idea that the lawsuit was made up, plus that one "coy" comment of Glip's where it's implied you're a liar. The recent giant doc drops do have discussion of the lawsuit which I missed on first read. Thanks for your explanation, it makes the spin on posts like this pretty yikes in hindsight:

Edit b/c image broke

 

[Hecate]

I've watched this shit since from the beginning, with a 10 foot pole. I never watched the community for the shit flinging, narc abuse, or the countless children turned adults saying that pk fucked them up, i was literally just here for the art. and yet despite the fact that ive tried to ignore all the bullshit I've still somehow managed to watch pk literally do the same shit over and over and over and over again. pk, marl, eevee, they all have a consistent track history of being fucked up people that literally care about no one but themselves, and have a particular talent of convincing gullible children and adults that they're trying to help.

you can't fix abusers. they can't be helped. pk and eevee are mentally ill. it doesn't matter what fucking happened to them in the past or how they were hurt, they still consistently hurt others for their own benefit, and if you stay involved with them you are just going help facilitate that.

nothing barring a miracle is going to put marl in jail and you're a fool to think that pk has any sort of leverage in facilitating that. you are being used, and its incredible to me that you either can't see that, or are okay with it.

I want to say good luck, but I know this where this is heading, I I guess I'll just wait for the eventual trash fire that will ensue from all of this like it has literally every other time this has happened.

 

[sad cowboy cat]

Going to reply in here even though half the conversation has yet to be moved.


I looked into it more and it does indeed seem to be the fanbase who has been spreading the idea that the lawsuit was made up, plus that one "coy" comment of Glip's where it's implied you're a liar. The recent giant doc drops do have discussion of the lawsuit which I missed on first read. Thanks for your explanation, it makes the spin on posts like this pretty yikes in hindsight:
View attachment 1483111

that link dead boss

 

[bigfluff]

i like ya, pengo. you've been nothing but courteous and friendly to me both in public and privately.

i've STILL been kinda trying to wrap my mind around the whole situation and how it keeps evolving behind the scenes, and i respect that you come from a place of good faith and interest. i trust you, but i got to thinking about what it is that worries me about your involvement with glip after reading these other replies.

i think what's jarring me, and maybe others disagree, is how (especially in our pm's too) when a critique of glip is brought up, you tend to react with a really similar script everytime.

1.) never excusing their actions, which is good
2.) explaining their actions as if you've spent a loooong time trying to empathise with them, even over agreeably poor behavior
3.) saying you've personally spoken to them about it in private and they heard you out
4.) they're trying to be better now, because you talked to them

i think this pattern is really eerie because it highlights how you are a good dude trying to do good but you absolutely i think should not operate as the carrier pidgeon of the damage glip does. they shouldn't need you to disagree with them privately or empathise with them to reflect and change. i think actually, the information exchange between you two does the opposite for me as what you may think it does- it highlights to me how glip will change to impress you, not because they can see the results of their actions on others.

because they can. they can see it and they can think critically without you, and frankly, the fact that they observably don't- i noticed this even outside of your anecdotes- until you step in is a big fat red flag to me.

glip is a classic narcissist and is subconsciously or not, baiting you with what works for you- feeling good by helping them. pengo brand bait tm. victims love a person to act as their savior or rock. be CAREFUL....

 

[Legosi]

Probably a good idea to @ him here to make sure he sees the new thread/questions. @Hatun

 

[Hatun]

Probably a good idea to @ him here to make sure he sees the new thread/questions. @Hatun

TY for the notif

i think what's jarring me, and maybe others disagree, is how (especially in our pm's too) when a critique of glip is brought up, you tend to react with a really similar script everytime.

1.) never excusing their actions, which is good
2.) explaining their actions as if you've spent a loooong time trying to empathise with them, even over agreeably poor behavior
3.) saying you've personally spoken to them about it in private and they heard you out
4.) they're trying to be better now, because you talked to them

i think this pattern is really eerie because it highlights how you are a good dude trying to do good but you absolutely i think should not operate as the carrier pidgeon of the damage glip does. they shouldn't need you to disagree with them privately or empathise with them to reflect and change. i think actually, the information exchange between you two does the opposite for me as what you may think it does- it highlights to me how glip will change to impress you, not because they can see the results of their actions on others.

Hey BF, I liked our convos too. I definitely have been putting thought to this. Meowthkip also linked me early on to a really cool channel with videos on different psych topics that I've been watching.
I have been trying to see things more from an objective view (as in, regardless of how I feel for others or what I think is the right thing or wrong thing to do).
I definitely see what you're pointing out, and I agree it's a problem. I'm trying to avoid my own thoughts and explanations there, since I recognize that is part of the problem... over-explaining behavior will normalize it for me, and I don't want to do that. I also have trouble though in sharing my thoughts succinctly due to not fully knowing what is or isn't relevant, so hopefully this reply is okay.

Spoiler: Words because I dunno how to be direct

I can also see what you mean that PK can see the effect they have on others, though I don't know if I can agree that they think critically. For myself personally, it took a long time to be able to understand how to think in a way that acknowledges other people (my own emotions got in the way extremely hard and I was impulsive before I went to therapy), and I've had friends have trouble with that too. I still have trouble with it, but in different ways.

I don't know if PK has this problem, so I won't argue if they do or don't, but it was the direction I came at this from before coming on here. If PK can genuinely think critically and recognize problems regardless of their emotional state, then I honestly am not sure what they would want from me by pretending to not understand until I talk to them. I am not disregarding it is a possibility, but rather, I do not know what PK would gain which makes it harder for me to consider fully. If my advice worked flawlessly and they were gaining followers and friends back, I would agree, but it hasn't and they continue to lose followers. If they were able to think critically, they would be able to see that their actions are bullshit a lot of the time, recognize what actions should be hidden and hide them, and honestly probably be way better at fixing their rep than they actually are. Marl had critical thinking, and it served him a little too well for the good of everyone around him.

If I were somehow providing them with validation, I could understand that (and I know to a degree I am providing validation and have provided it via discussing with them about Marl and having faith in them), but many times I come forward with bad news and don't really discuss anything positive.
It is something that occurs with people close to me as well, where I don't seem to add much positive to the pot, so it's not like I am this shining beacon of kindness and positive acts.

I do not talk to them thoroughly about their projects or offer much in that regard. They wanted to involve me in an idea regarding a flora story that would talk about how Marl treated us, and I tried to share my input. The next time they spoke to me about it (a while later), they had spoken to all their friends that help write their stories... and changed the idea completely. I had interest in helping with that originally as I felt it could help in regards to sharing emotions about Marl I could not easily share, but not really anymore as it has changed and is no longer a standalone story as opposed to a flora thing. I don't have any desire to step into flora.

I have encountered narcissists before, and the one who kept me around for longest did not really act similar to PK. They constantly escalated to try to force my responses (even if I gray rocked... actually especially if I did), and forced themselves and their characters into my work as main players, often in love with or sought by the MCs. PK hasn't really done that, though I know not every single narc is going to be the same, and abuse changes from person to person.
Sorry if that sounds like trying to justify them or defend them, it is more my problems with comparing my past experiences with what I am being told. I don't want to toss out what people say (so I don't) but I also don't want to toss out my own experiences and thoughts on a situation too quickly.

I agree that they should not need me to enable them to change, though I think they do need someone (a professional or two) especially when considering all the confusing information coming every which way towards them (or, to clarify, confusing information they used to have, as with everyone claiming different things, and their friends enabling them, Marl being enabled and a big part in spreading misinformation, etc) probably screwing with them and that they probably don't have as firm a grasp on social/moral boundaries that they should.

Truthfully, I feel better when victims of PK and Marl are helped. I still stand by the fact that if I see there is no lasting change or improvement I will leave. I will do my best to stay safe.

 

[ginny]

@Hatun what are your thoughts on this? specifically the highlighted portions



glip has yet to show their proof that they still say they had, even after admitting that marl was lying and that the logs werent doctored after all. so where is that proof? how was this a "solid case"? is it true that you didnt respond to their "youre being sued" claim or is that a lie, too?

i would ask if you knew the witnesses, since if you were actually in a suit i think they would have been legally required to give you their information for cross-examination (unless suits of this kind dont work like that, oops, not a law expert). but i feel like it never went that far, and/or you dont know them, so i dont expect you to answer. if you do, though, its obviously that we want to know lol

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as for the narcissism thing, i think its helpful to understand there are generally three different kinds of narc (with subtypes of course but im more talking about the motivations/goals/tactics). imo glip is DEFINITELY a vulnerable/covert narc, if not also a collective narc. so if your experience was with an overt/malignant narcissist it would DEFINITELY look different from a covert or collective narc.

put some resources for you below since collective narcissism can be hard to find at times, as its a relatively new way of defining this "flavor" of narcissism.

definition of vulnerable narc:

Spoiler

There’s also another, less obvious kind of narcissist to watch out for, apart from the anti-social and grandiose types: the covert, or vulnerable, narcissist. Don’t be deceived by the name, because these individuals also believe they are superior, but they keep these beliefs inside. Vulnerable narcissists are deeply self-absorbed, maintain an artificially inflated sense of themselves, and believe that they are entitled to more attention than they get. They, therefore, feel chronically victimized, as though the world has failed to recognize their brilliance or specialness. In this, the covert narcissist becomes prone to feelings of depression, even as he or she expresses powerful contempt for other people. These narcissists, too, lack empathy; they may be highly sensitive, but their sensitivity does not extend to the feelings of others.

definition of a collective narc, which i think is extremely pertinent when taking the flora discord into account:

Spoiler

"As opposed to individuals with narcissistic personality, who maintain inflated views of themselves, collective narcissists exaggerate offenses to their group’s image, and respond to them aggressively. Collective narcissists believe that their group’s importance and worth are not sufficiently recognized by others. They feel that their group merits special treatment, and insist that it gets the recognition and respect it deserves. In other words, collective narcissism amounts to a belief in the exaggerated greatness of one’s group, and demands external validation.

Collective narcissists are not simply content to be members of a valuable group. They don’t devote their energy to contributing to the group’s betterment and value. Rather, they engage in monitoring whether everybody around, particularly other groups, recognize and acknowledge the great value and special worth of their group. To be sure, collective narcissists demand privileged treatment, not equal rights. And the need for continuous external validation of the group’s inflated image (a negative attribute) is what differentiates collective narcissists from those who simply hold positive feelings about their group."

Spoiler: sources

Why collective narcissists are so politically volatile – Agnieszka Golec de Zavala | Aeon Ideas

How collective narcissism can seize an entire group, resulting in outbursts of intergroup rage or prejudiced reactions

aeon.co

4 Types of Narcissist, and How to Spot Each One

Not every narcissistic personality functions exactly the same way.

www.psychologytoday.com

(sources for second link are at the end of the article)

Covert Narcissism: The Quiet Counterpart to Narcissistic Personality - GoodTherapy.org Therapy Blog

To many, narcissistic traits may seem easy to recognize. But narcissism may also be present without the qualities that characterize some of its stereotypes.

www.goodtherapy.org

EDIT: this video describes flora to a T ruh roh

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWY05MadRJk