Plato's Theory of Forms impact on society

[Divine Power]

Plato's Theory of Forms is arguably the most famous and foundational aspect of his philosophy. It's a metaphysical theory that posits the existence of a realm of perfect, unchanging, and eternal entities, which he called "Forms" (or "Ideas," from the Greek eidos or idea). These Forms are the ultimate reality, and the physical world we perceive with our senses is merely an imperfect reflection or copy of this higher realm.

This is the physical world we inhabit, perceived through our senses. Everything in this world is constantly changing, imperfect, and perishable. Objects in the sensible world are merely imperfect copies or participates in the Forms. A beautiful flower, a just act, or a round ball are beautiful, just, or round only insofar as they participate in the Form of Beauty, Justice, or Roundness.

Forms are the ultimate cause of everything that exists in the sensible world. A thing is beautiful because it participates in the Form of Beauty. They also provide the standard for knowledge; true knowledge (episteme) is knowledge of the Forms, not of the changing sensible world.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Aristotle was always the better philosopher.

 

[I'm Retarded?]

the theory of Forms is retarded and merely a masturbatory dogmatizing of the way humans already think. human consciousness naturally holds itself separate from the material world; humans learn to create idealized models of material reality even before we're old enough to speak. though Plato was socially influential, the effect of the idea of Forms specifically is much like Ayn Rand's objectivism - it merely gives language and pretense to something inherent in the way the human mind works, to beliefs its proponents already held and would continue to hold with or without Plato's contribution. classical metaphysics in general consists largely of self-professed intellectuals circle-jerking and self-sucking. there is no reason to believe these Forms truly exist, nor that the human attachment to ideals is anything more than an artifact of the separation between material reality and our perception of it.

 

[Divine Power]

the theory of Forms is retarded and merely a masturbatory dogmatizing of the way humans already think. human consciousness naturally holds itself separate from the material world; humans learn to create idealized models of material reality even before we're old enough to speak. though Plato was socially influential, the effect of the idea of Forms specifically is much like Ayn Rand's objectivism - it merely gives language and pretense to something inherent in the way the human mind works, to beliefs its proponents already held and would continue to hold with or without Plato's contribution. classical metaphysics in general consists largely of self-professed intellectuals circle-jerking and self-sucking. there is no reason to believe these Forms truly exist, nor that the human attachment to ideals is anything more than an artifact of the separation between material reality and our perception of it.

Plato sought to explain the objective grounding for abstract concepts like justice, beauty, equality, and mathematical truths. If a perfect circle doesn't exist in the material world, where does our concept of it come from? Why do different people agree on what constitutes a "more perfect" or "less perfect" circle? Plato's answer was that there must be an existing, non-material Form of the Circle to which all imperfect material circles refer and from which our concept is derived. This is an explanation for a cognitive phenomenon, not just a description of it.

 

[MrTroll]

I used to eat Play-Doh as a kid. But don't worry, I turned out alright.

 

[I'm Retarded?]

This is an explanation for a cognitive phenomenon, not just a description of it.

it's a bad one. humans naturally reach similar conclusions about how to interpret reality because all individual humans are more or less the same thing. the existence of objective reality is an assumption based on consensus, and consensus does not necessarily mean that thing exists outside of any human's mind. animals do not concern themselves with abstracts like beauty or law. guys like Plato are overfond of their own farts.

 

[Tablet County]

the theory of Forms is retarded and merely a masturbatory dogmatizing of the way humans already think. human consciousness naturally holds itself separate from the material world; humans learn to create idealized models of material reality even before we're old enough to speak. though Plato was socially influential, the effect of the idea of Forms specifically is much like Ayn Rand's objectivism - it merely gives language and pretense to something inherent in the way the human mind works, to beliefs its proponents already held and would continue to hold with or without Plato's contribution. classical metaphysics in general consists largely of self-professed intellectuals circle-jerking and self-sucking. there is no reason to believe these Forms truly exist, nor that the human attachment to ideals is anything more than an artifact of the separation between material reality and our perception of it.

It's funny that you talk about "self-professed intellectuals circle-jerking and self-sucking" and Divine Power shows up immediately after.

Edit: Nvm I'm retarded. I have this idiot blocked so I don't have to suffer his bloviating, thought @Lieutenant Rasczak made the thread lol.

 

[A Very Big Fish]

I can understand why Diogenes threw a plucked chicken at him.

 

[herefortheactualthreads]

(Mr. Bean enters, looks serious, then confused, then nods knowingly)


“Ahem… yes, yes! Plah-tuhhh… uh… floofy whoosh! (waves hand in circles like conjuring spirits) … uh… Formy-wormies! ”


(points to sky)
“Up-a-there! Woo! The big... uh... idea-y bits! Perfecto! No changey! Like, uh…” (makes a stiff statue pose and then gives a thumbs-up) “Mmm! Good good!”


(points to ground)
“Down here? Eh? Eh?? Pfft! Wobbly! Wiggly! ” (waves arms like jelly) “Not perfect! No no no!”


(holds up a flower, sniffs dramatically, then gags)
“Pretty? Hmm? But only... ehhhh…” (gestures vaguely upward) “...flower from... the... Form-of-Flowery-flower? Yes? Yes??”


(draws a circle with hands, then sticks finger through it and looks surprised)
“Roundy? But not real-roundy! Just... meh-roundy! ”


(taps temple and then points to sky)
“Thinky-thinky = REAL thingy! Not… sniff-sniff see-see ! That’s just... uh... bloop! Copycat world!”


(wobbles head, waves fingers in air)
“Beauty? Justice? Roundy-rounds? All upstairs in the... uhh... Platonickity place! ”


(makes a “Eureka!” face, then salutes to invisible Forms)
“True brainy-brain? Only in the... Fwoooooorms! ”


(trips over own foot, falls dramatically, then stands up proudly and says...)
“Thank you. Plato. Smart man. Bit weird. Like me.”

 

[Haffhart]

the theory of Forms is retarded and merely a masturbatory dogmatizing of the way humans already think. human consciousness naturally holds itself separate from the material world; humans learn to create idealized models of material reality even before we're old enough to speak. though Plato was socially influential, the effect of the idea of Forms specifically is much like Ayn Rand's objectivism - it merely gives language and pretense to something inherent in the way the human mind works, to beliefs its proponents already held and would continue to hold with or without Plato's contribution. classical metaphysics in general consists largely of self-professed intellectuals circle-jerking and self-sucking. there is no reason to believe these Forms truly exist, nor that the human attachment to ideals is anything more than an artifact of the separation between material reality and our perception of it.

You know what they say - "the theologians of the world argue, while the mystics agree".

I've studied some esoterica, and Plato's Theory of Forms sounds like the fancy Classical way of saying "earth bad spirit world good" which most religions and philosophies agree with (a good part of spirituality can be summed up with what @herefortheactualthreads posted).

He's just the guy who stated it in our civilization, and brought the idea into Christianity (he was one of the good pagans you see).

Now I'm just an Internet poster in the 2020s, who isn't even that into philosophy, so take what I say with some salt.

 

[Maniacal Foreigner]

Careful, you'll summon James Lindsay.

 

[Divine Power]

You know what they say - "the theologians of the world argue, while the mystics agree".

I've studied some esoterica, and Plato's Theory of Forms sounds like the fancy Classical way of saying "earth bad spirit world good" which most religions and philosophies agree with

Plato's Theory of Forms is a complex philosophical concept that goes far beyond a simple "earth bad, spirit world good" dichotomy. While it's true that Plato posited a transcendent realm of perfect, unchanging Forms (often associated with the "spirit world" or intelligible realm) as superior to the imperfect, he didn't advocate for abandoning the material world. In fact, he believed that understanding the Forms was crucial for navigating and improving our earthly existence

 

[Red Saltire]

Platonism is this chart

 

[I'm Retarded?]

Plato's Theory of Forms is a complex philosophical concept that goes far beyond a simple "earth bad, spirit world good" dichotomy. While it's true that Plato posited a transcendent realm of perfect, unchanging Forms (often associated with the "spirit world" or intelligible realm) as superior to the imperfect, he didn't advocate for abandoning the material world. In fact, he believed that understanding the Forms was crucial for navigating and improving our earthly existence

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kiwifriend, to counterbalance everyone else shitting on you in this thread - myself included - I just want to say, I appreciate your patience and fortitude, and that your posts are well written and well reasoned. I see you making these threads about classical philosophy and such, and I want you to know that even though I mostly clang into them with some negative bullshit, I recognize your effort, and I respect it. live your truth and don't let the haters get you down.

 

[Divine Power]

kiwifriend, to counterbalance everyone else shitting on you in this thread - myself included - I just want to say, I appreciate your patience and fortitude, and that your posts are well written and well reasoned. I see you making these threads about classical philosophy and such, and I want you to know that even though I mostly clang into them with some negative bullshit, I recognize your effort, and I respect it. live your truth and don't let the haters get you down.

Cool buddy.

 

[PonderosaPete]

More like Gayto. Gott'em

 

[ToroidalBoat]

I dunno if there's some magical "Forms" realm out there that the physical mirrors, but there is pure information (content) that can be expressed in fixed form. And copyright and other "intellectual property" law try to restrict the use of content itself. And quite a number even believe that copying in and of itself is somehow the same as theft.*

*For example, "you stole my idea!" and "tracing is art theft!" (that can be presented in a way that's lying about who made it though).

 

[Divine Power]

I dunno if there's some magical "Forms" realm out there that the physical mirrors, but there is pure information (content) that can be expressed in fixed form. And copyright and other "intellectual property" law try to restrict the use of content itself. And quite a number even believe that copying in and of itself is somehow the same as theft.*

*For example, "you stole my idea!" and "tracing is art theft!" (that can be presented in a way that's lying about who made it though).

One common philosophical perspective, particularly tracing back to Plato, is that ideas are abstract, non-physical entities that exist independently of our minds. In this view, an idea like "justice" or "beauty" isn't just a thought we have; it's a perfect, unchanging "form" or "ideal" that our individual experiences or examples of justice and beauty are merely imperfect reflections of.

For example, Mark suckerberg is being sued for stealing the ideas of facebook

 

[herefortheactualthreads]

Mr. Bean's "Philosophy... er... Philo-silly?"​

A Skit on Plato's Theory of Forms

[Scene 1: THE CLASSROOM]

Mr. Bean tiptoes into a lecture hall.
He holds a HUGE book: "PLATO: Smarty Pants Edition".
Looks at camera. Shrugs. Opens book upside-down.


Spots the chalkboard.
Starts drawing:

• Stickman with halo — “Ahhh!”
• Wiggly mess — “Blehh…”

Points back and forth.
Then points to himself.
Then both drawings.
Scratches head.
Gasps!
Moves himself to stand proudly by halo man.
Fixes tie.

[Scene 2: THE CAVE]


Lights off. Mr. Bean has a flashlight and shoe box theatre.
Two sock puppets.
One watches shadows: “Ooooh!”
Other puppet runs out of the cave...
FLASH! Sunlight! Puppet melts!
Bean screams silently!



He rushes in with tape. Fixes it.
Hugs puppet.
Holds it up like Simba.
“Ta-da!”

[Scene 3: EARTH BAD? NO!]

Bean outside. Tries to escape the material world.

• Tosses sandwich into trash.
  
  

 

[herefortheactualthreads]

Mr. Bean's "The Idea Thief!"​

(featuring Plato, Justice, and Mark... Sucker-what?)

[Scene 1: THE THINKING CHAIR ]

Mr. Bean sits in a velvet armchair.
He’s wearing a fake white beard and holding a snow globe labeled “ IDEAS”.
He dramatically holds up a cardboard sign:
“IDEAS: INVISIBLE, FLOATY, FANCY”

Points to head: “No no.”
Points to sky: “Up there!”
Does interpretive dance for “justice” and “beauty”:

• Justice: Balances a banana on each hand like scales.
• Beauty: Looks in mirror. Smiles. Sees reflection. Frowns. Puts paper over mirror: "IDEAL BEAUTY ONLY."

[Scene 2: THE IDEA FORM FACTORY™ ]

Bean builds a cardboard machine:

• Input slot: “THOUGHTS”
• Output slot: “FORMS”

He puts in:

• Drawing of a cat =
• Out comes: glowing cardboard cutout: “CATNESS” with a halo.
  He bows.

Puts in: picture of fries
Out comes: "TASTYNESS" (he eats it — it glows as it enters his mouth).
Suddenly levitates slightly.

[Scene 3: THE FACEBOOK FORM THEFT TRIAL ]

Courtroom. Judge is Plato (cardboard wig, angry eyebrows).
Bean is lawyer.
Enters dramatically with briefcase full of ideas:

• Justice
• Beauty
• Cats
• "The Idea of Facebook" (a glowing blue orb with a giant "F")

On the stand: Mark Suckerberg (clearly Bean in a bad wig and hoodie)

Bean gasps and points:
“HE STOLE… THE FORM OF FACEBOOK!!”

Everyone gasps.
Plato slams gavel.
“NOT the copy, the IDEAL!”
Holds up glowing orb. It floats dramatically.

[Scene 4: CHAOS]

Suckerberg tries to run with the orb.
Bean chases him. Slips on banana (justice scale banana).
Orb flies into air.
Lands in judge’s wig.
Plato becomes enlightened.

[Final Scene: PHILOSOPHY SAVES THE DAY]

Bean stands proudly.
Writes on chalkboard:

• IDEAS = NOT IN YOUR HEAD
• THEY FLOAT IN "IDEA LAND"
• REALITY = JUST A CHEAP KNOCKOFF
• DON'T STEAL GLOWY ORBS

Puts orb in safe. Locks it. Swallows key.

[Credits roll as Mr. Bean poses like The Thinker, but is actually sitting on a whoopee cushion.]