Power Generation General

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Really you should have multiple options for power generation one of the coolest ones I've ever seen is super heated salt using solar panels keep in mind though that it's a really dangerous if you don't know what you're doing basically you have molten hot salt and if the tanks bust you're gonna have bit of an issue
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if you have the room on your land you can build a water battery which is a fancy way of building a really big pond at the top of a hill and using your solar and wind power to pump water to the top and then building a hydroelectric dam
 
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Lol they did this in New Mexico and it killed like 300 birds a year, so they made it illegal.
I don't think it's bad, but just be aware if you want to try this out.
Still legal generally in the US, although maybe not New Mexico
4 California, 2 Nevada, 1 Arizona, 1 Florida. Seems 3/4 are trough type, which probably kill less birds and a couple are the towers.
https://www.bechtel.com/projects/ivanpah-solar-electric-generating-system/ for one of them.
150528-bechtel-ivanpah-solar-electric-aerial-2012.jpg
 
Trees generate breeze. Could a small breeze with enough turbines generate enough power to charge the battery banks?
YMMV but I've never been to a part of the UK that isn't breezy and most days it's windy as fuck, even 100 miles inland.

To clarify, this is to just run the essentials of keeping fridges/freezers ticking over to keep food preserved in the event of a blackout. I wouldn't try and power my home off of it other than charging a laptop/tablet/torch, just low power utilities for necessity and entertainment. If/when I go off the grid, modern technology will be yeeted into the shitcan.
I have never personally run windpower but one of the problems I heard people tend to have is that if the wind is changing directions too much you can have a hard time generating power. Your windmill just spins. Although I think there are vertical wind turbines that are more immune to this but are less efficient and more expensive. If anyone has first hand experience with running wind power I would be very interested.

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The Savonius and Darrius types Aren't as efficient as HAWT (Horizontal) turbines but do better in cross winds like you say. But the only stuff I can really find on Google is talking in terms of industrial generation.

For example this is $6k on Amazon and generates 10kw @ 220v with a rated windspeed of 12m/s. Sure, the numbers will always be favourably fudged but the average house only requires 750kwh a month to operate. Now, my math and understanding cannot be correct here so anyone who could calculate this correctly would be great.

If a 10kw turbine runs at 10% generation capacity (which is worst case scenario) at a rating of 12m/s windspeed, if would need to run continuously for roughly 60 hours a month to give you enough to run your house.

12m/s windspeed (the average rating the amazon wind turbine uses) is high for an average. The average in the UK is 8 knots (4m.s~) so your turbine is running at 25% of it's ability (i know it's not a linear scale but to make the math easier).
Let's say the 10000W turbine is now rated at 2500W because it's running at 1/4 of the speed because the average wind speed is 4m/s not 12m/s (I know 4 is 1/3rd of 12, I'm allowing for 25% loss due to non-linear scaling of generation).
The turbine would have to run continuously for 300 hours a month at 4/ms average wind speed to power the higher-end of average UK family home. 300 hours is a lot, no doubt, but it's passive, it just runs. Basically it needs to run 50% of the month to power your house for a month. But that's a full house with electronics and gadgets.
To trickle charge batteries passively and to power a laptop and tablet, you're talking a smaller turbine or an easy task to live off grid for a $6k gadget.

This is where I get stuck because those numbers, even revised down and worst case scenario, cannot be true. If it was, then a street of 10 houses could pitch in and buy 5 wind turbines ($30k) + batteries and extras ($10k) for free energy for 20 years.


I found this on quora
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How much energy does a 10kW wind turbine produce per hour?

Short Answer: What you may really want to know is how much power a 10 kW wind turbine produces per hour.
Power is a measure of energy produced over time.
One Watt (Unit of Power) equals One Joule (Unit of Energy) expended over one second.
So in a single watt hour 3,600 joules are expended. (There are 3,600 seconds in an hour.) In a single kilowatt hour 3,600,000 joules are expended.
The peak output of a 10 kW wind turbine is going to be very close to 10 kW hours per hour.
Actual output will vary greatly by the quality of wind resource. Most small wind turbines will tend to operate at capacity factors in a range between 15% and 40% at the high and low ends. This translates to Annual Energy Production (“AEP”) of between 12,800 and 34,170 kWh per year which is a good size for a large house with a lot of gadgets or a small farm.
So actual average output per hour will run between 1.5 and 4.0 kWh in terms of power or between 5.4 and 14.4 kilo-joules or kilo-newton meters in terms of energy.
Going deeper:
One should always be careful when evaluating a type of power plant by its advertised nameplate capacity. The international convention is to to list the maximum rated output of a generator as its nameplate capacity regardless of what the average or typical output of the the generator may be.
Most wind turbines these days will be installed in a place where they will produce between 25 and 38% of peak power on average with some exceptions at the high and low end beyond these limits. Most wind turbines will produce power at a competitive cost at these capacity factors. If they don’t or can’t produce power at competitive rates at these capacity factors chances are the project won’t be built.
Moreover, it almost never, ever happens that any (by which I mean ALL forms whatsoever) type of generation runs at full capacity all year long. Even nuclear plants run at capacity factors in the nineties just below full capacity.
When shopping for a wind turbine you want to dig down into its specifications and test data and look for two tables in particular, (1) the turbine’s power curve, and (2) the turbine’s AEP table.
The power curve will tell you what generator output will be at specific wind speeds; the AEP table will give you a good estimate of annual production at a specific average wind speed.
So if you know your average wind speed at turbine hub height you can look up annual energy production at that wind speed and get a good estimate of average production plus or minus 10 to 15%.
If you have good annual data on the percentage of time that the wind blows at specific speeds you can model annual production to a higher level of confidence.
A quick note on measures of power, energy, and force:
Before going further, we should talk about the difference between energy and power.
Energy is the capacity to do work or the force required to move a mass from one location to another and the most common measures of energy are a multiples of joules or newton meters (like joules, kilo-joules, mega-joules or the same with newton meters.
Power is a measure of Energy expended or produced over time and is measured most typically in multiples of watts ( like watts, kilowatts, megawatts, etc.
One Watt = One Joule per second = One Newton Meter per second.
In other words:
Power = Energy/Time = Force x Distance/Time

Full link
Short answer

So, the costs for a utility scale wind turbine range from about $1.3 million to $2.2 million per MW installed, most have about two MW.

[19]
There are no hidden costs for anything, and no, wind turbines do not cause cancer.


Let’s assume a $4 million 2MW turbine, maintenance is negligible, when compared. The US use about 4 trillion kWh per year, that’s 4000 trillion watt-hours

[20]
, Assuming that a turbine runs only on 200 days out of the year, and only for ten hours, then one turbine produces 4 billion watt-hours (4 GWh) per year, so you would need 1 million such turbines across the US, at no extra cost for twenty years, and no one dies, no one gets sick. So 1 million times $4 million, that’s $4 trillion, over twenty years though, that’s $200 billion per year, total cost. Let’s add 25% for maintenance, that adds up to $250 billion per year and you have free, clean, renewable electric power in the US for twenty years. (compare that with just the $650 billion in fossil fuel subsidies per year). I realise, you would need more electric power, as fossil fuel powered vehicles would go electric etc, or hydrogen fuel cell, but the cost ratio will easily be 1/10 in favour of wind, easily. Also, the cost would go down drastically, if that much wind turbines were to be installed.



I say it again, who needs climate change to make renewable energy the sensible, the reasonable, and the economical way to go.

Now let’s do the math on job creation, new inventions, health benefits, social benefits, environmental benefits etc. Sorry, just f*cking with you. ;-)

Edit: January 25th 2020

First, let me thank you all for your input and upvotes, I appreciate your interest in the subject.

Some comments addressed open questions and issues on the sideline, or issues on the grand question of the economics of renewables.

Let me sum up what I wrote in the comments, so that I don’t have to repeat myself endlessly.

On nuclear
Nuclear power is ok when there are no other options, otherwise, construction is comparatively prohibitively expensive, and waste storage is still an issue.

The aesthetics of wind turbines
To some, wind turbines are eye sores. If that is you, please refer to the images in my answer, that show you what mining fossil fuels does, not only aesthetically.

Bird Kill
Wind turbines kill between 214,000 and 368,000 birds annually — a small fraction compared with the estimated 6.8 million fatalities from collisions with cell and radio towers and the 1.4 billion to 3.7 billion deaths from cats, according to the peer-reviewed study by two federal scientists and the environmental consulting firm West Inc.

Recyclability of turbines
The end of life of turbines still creates a bit of an issue, their size makes them hard to facilitate landfill space for. Let’s not forget though, that the ingenuity of material scientists is making progress on the recyclability and that the blades that go to landfills aren’t made of poisonous, harmful materials.

My scenario is fiction, my numbers are hypothetical, as stated.
No country should, nor will rely in one energy source alone. A mix of wind, photovoltaic solar, thermal solar (with storage capacity and HVDC lines to deliver the power to far away urban areas) hydro (with and without storage capacity), geothermal, and, where there is no other option, nuclear makes most sense, as is the goal in the EU, and even in China.

Sorry for the rambly post but any thoughts would be great
 
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If a 10kw turbine runs at 10% generation capacity
Keep in mind that you need a minimum of 2.5 m/s (5.5 mph) to start this. otherwise you're gettin nuffin'

I found a wind index map here:
30m_wind_map-2652221995.jpg

and you can see there's a few places that are really really good for wind speed, and a lot of places that are dookie. even at 4m/s though that's 25% of the load capacity, so I'd bet that generating a constant 2.5kW would be enough to offset most households. Keep in mind that's a passive income of ~0.25/hr, so ~2,000$ US/year if your state does energy buyback. with a service life of 20 years, it could make you about 40k$.
now keep in mind, this doesn't include the mast, or the cost of putting in the concrete pad / install. I have no clue what that would be in terms of cost.
 
Keep in mind that you need a minimum of 2.5 m/s (5.5 mph) to start this. otherwise you're gettin nuffin'

I found a wind index map here:
View attachment 6353351
and you can see there's a few places that are really really good for wind speed, and a lot of places that are dookie. even at 4m/s though that's 25% of the load capacity, so I'd bet that generating a constant 2.5kW would be enough to offset most households. Keep in mind that's a passive income of ~0.25/hr, so ~2,000$ US/year if your state does energy buyback. with a service life of 20 years, it could make you about 40k$.
now keep in mind, this doesn't include the mast, or the cost of putting in the concrete pad / install. I have no clue what that would be in terms of cost.
Depending on how savvy you are, erecting your own mast in a concrete pad wouldn't be too hard. The concreting would be the easiest part, the sinking and shoring up of the mast would be the trickiest.

How does wind compare to solar in terms or reliability? I know YMMV because in the UK it's always bloody windy and never sunny, but somewhere like Cali or Nevada, would the purchase cost:generation favour solar?
Or even if we talk about SHTF, is a smaller wind turbine or an array of turbines easier to move than solar?
 
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is a smaller wind turbine or an array of turbines easier to move than solar?
Just a guess: not by a long-shot. Solar panels stack too neatly. A palette of solar can hit 100k$ us, and the 2.4m blades for this could barely fit on the same palette. not to mention the mast as well. I've only worked with solar, so I have no clue-it may be super easy to move wind gen.
How does wind compare to solar in terms or reliability?
I don't know about reliability, but I do know about maintenance. solar has a shorter lifespan, but less maintenance. wind has more maintenance, and a longer lifespan. on average, you'll have to clean solar panels once a month if you can, and polish them once a decade. Unless you're cheap, inverters and grid-ties will never go bad. wind you'll likely have to replace the bearings every other year or so, maybe a belt every year depending on the style, and then preventative items for the mechanical bits. this doesn't speak at all to how reliably they generate power, only how much of an eye you have to keep on things.

Depending on how savvy you are, erecting your own mast in a concrete pad wouldn't be too hard. The concreting would be the easiest part, the sinking and shoring up of the mast would be the trickiest.
I agree. though it isn't a one-man job. depending on the ground conditions, keeping the whole thing righted will be difficult.
 
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I don’t think wind energy is a real solution due to lack of parts and good quality products that you can buy. I saw a video online where a guy set up a cheap Chinese wind generator and it sucked ass about a couple of watts of power with a good wind. Basically, if you wanna make any power, it needs to be super high and have huge blades. Plus a lot of the motors for windmills are three phase. And in order to charge your battery, you would need to change a three phase AC into DC. Good luck finding an inverter to do that.
 
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I agree. though it isn't a one-man job. depending on the ground conditions, keeping the whole thing righted will be difficult.
Depending on the mast height you're generating tons of concrete. A 25foot free standing, unguyed antenna tower needs 2.4 yards, 96 90lb bags if you're hand mixing, 4 foot deep hole and 4 foot wide. Antennas generally probably need less concrete than a wind turbine.
 
you would need to change a three phase AC into DC. Good luck finding an inverter to do that.
This is a lot simpler than you may think. just a small handful of components. You may have difficulty finding a 3-phase transformer, but you can always use 3 1-phase transformers in a Wye or Delta config.

Here's the idea, it's called a 3-phase rectifier:
Figure+6.4+CONTROLLED+RECTIFIER+(3-PHASE+FULL-WAVE)-4123641224.jpg


You can use diodes on both ends if you like. Thyristors let you control things a bit better.
but these diodes are cheap parts ~2$ a pop for high-quality components.
The idea is that the diodes keep the voltage on the + end keep the voltage at the voltage of the highest among the 3 waveforms for any time. the ones at the - end keep the voltage at the lowest point of any of the 3 for any given time.
 
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I don’t think wind energy is a real solution due to lack of parts and good quality products that you can buy. I saw a video online where a guy set up a cheap Chinese wind generator and it sucked ass about a couple of watts of power with a good wind. Basically, if you wanna make any power, it needs to be super high and have huge blades. Plus a lot of the motors for windmills are three phase. And in order to charge your battery, you would need to change a three phase AC into DC. Good luck finding an inverter to do that.
I've heard of/seen on youtube, people using old washing machine motors as the motor/generator, as they're three-phase and cheap to get a hold of from scrap yards. Whether they really are up to the task or not I've no idea. Bearing are ten-a-penny and relatively cheap.
The most expensive part is the mast and turbine itself. From what i've seen/read, which is limited so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Depending on the mast height you're generating tons of concrete. A 25foot free standing, unguyed antenna tower needs 2.4 yards, 96 90lb bags if you're hand mixing, 4 foot deep hole and 4 foot wide. Antennas generally probably need less concrete than a wind turbine.
It's about 16-20 mixes of sand, concrete, stone and water. Could easily be done in a 12 hour day. I Did when I was laying a concrete floor in my house. I mixed, they slapped it down.
_____________________________________________

As a SHTF off-grid alternative, is wind a better consideration than solar (YMMV) and hydro?
 
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This is a lot simpler than you may think. just a small handful of components. You may have difficulty finding a 3-phase transformer, but you can always use 3 1-phase transformers in a Wye or Delta config.

Here's the idea, it's called a 3-phase rectifier:
View attachment 6353679

You can use diodes on both ends if you like. Thyristors let you control things a bit better.
but these diodes are cheap parts ~2$ a pop for high-quality components.
The idea is that the diodes keep the voltage on the + end keep the voltage at the voltage of the highest among the 3 waveforms for any time. the ones at the - end keep the voltage at the lowest point of any of the 3 for any given time.
Oddly, that circuit is used in every car alternator in use every day. They all generate 3 phase AC internally. Add some filtering and/or a wide input DC to regulated DC for battery charging or DC to AC converter.
 
I don’t think wind energy is a real solution due to lack of parts and good quality products that you can buy. I saw a video online where a guy set up a cheap Chinese wind generator and it sucked ass about a couple of watts of power with a good wind. Basically, if you wanna make any power, it needs to be super high and have huge blades. Plus a lot of the motors for windmills are three phase. And in order to charge your battery, you would need to change a three phase AC into DC. Good luck finding an inverter to do that.
I’ve built turbines (including the alternator) that make 1kW no sweat, 24/7.
Axial flux alternator with permanent magnets. They are 3 phase (or more). Guess what, so is your car alternator and that charges the battery just fine.
No regulation is needed, just a straight forward diode rectifier. To prevent overcharging you use a charge controller with a dump load - this is a heater that just wastes the excess power or puts it into your hot water tank.
 
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Oddly, that circuit is used in every car alternator in use every day. They all generate 3 phase AC internally. Add some filtering and/or a wide input DC to regulated DC for battery charging or DC to AC converter.
Sorry for the autism but it’s actually not! A car alternator has a wound rotor with slip rings. A (very small) PWM’d current is fed into it which sets the strength of the magnetic field that interacts with the stator windings.
The output, again, is just a 3 phase bridge rectifier, no SCRs or anything. The control circuit turns down the field current to regulate the battery voltage.
 
No regulation is needed, just a straight forward diode rectifier.
This is only true for DC loads, if you want a grid tie system, or even just a system that produces 'wall-voltage' you'll need some mechanical bits, or additional electrical doo-bobs.
 
This is only true for DC loads, if you want a grid tie system, or even just a system that produces 'wall-voltage' you'll need some mechanical bits, or additional electrical doo-bobs.
Grid tie is easy - rectifier and straight into the DC input of the inverter, but this time at high voltage so the losses are minimal.

Most small turbines I’ve worked with are safe to run off-load (auto furling) so not a problem if there’s a power out, others have a dump load or brake controlled by a relay that closes if the voltage (or wind speed) gets too high. I guess those are the mechanical or electrical doobries you mentioned :)

A “system that produces wall voltage” is a battery charging turbine along with an inverter. So the same applies, just burn off the excess at the DC level.
 
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Trees generate breeze
Wut. Trees slow wind. Dafuq u talkin bout, Willis?
Still legal generally in the US, although maybe not New Mexico
4 California, 2 Nevada, 1 Arizona, 1 Florida. Seems 3/4 are trough type, which probably kill less birds and a couple are the towers.
https://www.bechtel.com/projects/ivanpah-solar-electric-generating-system/ for one of them.
View attachment 6353127
I heard that if you get the right triggering mechanism, you can use that thing to call down a space laser.

I live in an orange zone on that map. We have INSANE winds. . . Sometimes. And sometimes we have weeks of calm. Wind is good for stealing limited groundwater to crack, but for powering an individual house, I am dubious. We don't get that many cloudy days here, and even when we do, the sun usually rises.

I am curious about old style aeromotors. I have a dilapidated one over an 1870s hand dug well on my property, which currently serves only to look picturesque as fuck. If I could get that thing back in action, I'd invest in a cistern and have at least enough water to keep myself and my animals alive in a drought-cum-power-failure situation. Even if it just pumps 3 GPM one fifth of the time, that's 6,000 gallons a week. That would be enough.

My neighbors had a small.wind turbine on about a 30 foot tower on top of a hill. It blew down in a storm two years ago, and they haven't moved it since.
 
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