Power Generation General

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Jump said:
Water power vanished the instant steam engines where invented. They are not practical for generating a useful amount of power unless you are building a big fucking waterwheel. Like something big enough that will show up on google earth and get the state's attention.

>List of demands
If you live in the USA or Canada then finding ANY available land now at reasonable price is hard. Forget trying to find land with a stream at the correct pitch and flow for a water wheel.
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Instead of a water wheel you could damn the hydro-source and create a lake that can then be used to run a turbine. There are actually companies that install this kind of stuff on the small scale that makes it useful for a homestead. How much power you could realistically generate this way would depend mostly on how much water you have and how much energy you can give it before sending it to the turbine
 
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I've been mucking around with caravan level solar panels and inverters, and found even 'pure' sine wave inverters can be crap - they'll power stuff, but anything with speakers will buzz and TVs/receivers will have signal issues. Pays to spend a bit more for high quality parts.
 
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I got a Goal Zero Yeti 3000 power station a long while ago, and ended up using it for a lot of things including its current role as UPS with a huge battery backing up my main PC and network. This kind of device pairs very well with a gas generator, acting as an inverter to turn dirty inconsistent portable generator power into clean electronic-safe power even if the generator stops temporarily. I've also used it as a buffer for appliances like kettles and coffee makers to turn a brief power spike into a longer recharge time which burdens the generator less and is much less likely to trip any fuses. Jackery is another well-known brand which makes the same kind of products.
 
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Yeah, the issue of gas going bad is huge depending on what level of collapse you are preparing for. This is why solar, wind and hydro seem like better options to me if done right. Another crazy option I was thinking is just getting a diesel generator. You can run it like normal well everything is going good in society and if there is a breakdown you can fairly easily make your own fuel by rendering and processing animal and plant fats. It sounds insane but diesel engines are tanks and the processes are not super complex, the biggest thing seems to be filtering all the particulates and bringing the viscosity down so you don't gum the hell out of your fuel delivery system. Big question I can't figure out is volume. How many cows would you need to bucher to get the 1000 watts a day the average home uses? If it's more than like .05 or it's a retarded idea.
 
davids877 said:
One thing I see often is people on-grid try and size their emergency power generation to run everything. Sure, you can do that but you're going to burn a ton of extra fuel. Think about maybe tolerating not being able to run the air conditioner, dryer, water heater and range at the same time. Sure, it could be out for a while and you need to do laundry but be rational with your usage and power needs. And if it's an emergency getting more fuel may be a problem.
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Depends on what you're trying to do. If you're trying to ensure that you'll still have relatively cheap power after the green energy zealots drive the cost of electricity through the roof by wasting money on useless solar/wind farms and battery storage systems then you'll want enough capacity to run everything.
 
Well speaking of worthless solar (on large scale I agree fwiw)...

Does anyone have thoughts or recommendations for a portable solar system that can charge I guess a battery but the end goal is:

- Recharge small important electronics.
- maybe have enough spare to recharge non important small electronics.

Things like a flashlight batteries via their charger (18650), phone or e reader, a rechargeable fan (hot climate issues here not cold).

Ideally sized so that say if its only flashlights and fan, a full charge might last you a couple days without sunny weather.

Obviously this is less shtf and more "shit has temporarily been left on the rug" level prep.
 
People often don't know that:

  • You need more than just the solar panels. You need wiring, a charge controller, batteries and an inverter to get any useful power.
  • You need a lot more panels and batteries than you think you do if you think you're going to go off grid.
  • The rooftop panels that nice telemarketer talked you into will do nothing for you during a power outage. ALL they do is provide power to the grid, unless you OWN the panels and have also invested in batteries, inverter, etc. AND your local utility or zoning even allows you to disconnect from the grid.
  • A 15 watt panel from Harbor Freight is not going to power your RV air conditioner. A 200 watt suitcase panel from Renogy won't do it either. Unless you have a 45 foot diesel pusher or 5th wheel, you probably don't even have the roof space for that many kilowatts.
  • If you let your lead-acid batteries go below 12 volts / 50% charge, you've ruined them. Lithiums are more forgiving and can be discharged down to 20% without damage, but they too won't last forever.
  • Solar "generators" are not generators. They're batteries with inverters. They don't generate anything but heat and a bit of fan noise. You still need to fill them up with electricity from time to time by plugging into the wall or attaching some solar panels.
  • Solar panels aren't very efficient, but they have improved over time. They work best at cooler temperatures, they want full sun at precisely the right angle, they need to be kept clear of dust and debris, and they don't produce as much power on cloudy days.
  • The latitudes where solar power would be the most useful are also the ones with the least amount of usable sunlight. And bice versa,
  • A tiny shadow over one corner of a panel reduces the output of the entire panel as if the whole thing was shaded. I'm sure this is less important with newer panels, but a TV antenna or a tree branch can still put a big dent in your output.
  • Solar panels lose efficiency as they age. So do batteries. Count on replacing them once they can no longer keep up with your needs. On the bright side, the same size panel in $current_year may put out twice the wattage at half the cost as the one you installed 10 or 15 years ago.
  • It's not completely safe. People already associate lithium batteries with unexpected, hard to extinguish fires, but solar panels thrmselves can fuck up and incinerate the building they're attached to.
  • Once you factor in the environmental cost of mining and refining the necessary rare earths, the manufacturing process, the shipping (almost all are made in China), the habitat destruction of "barren desert" (nobody asked the Joshua trees and tortoises if they wanted to be bulldozed to make room for a huge solar farm), the low efficiency and the limited lifespan of the panels, solar power isn't nearly as "green" as the champagne socialists want you to think. It has its uses for self-contained, off-grid RV dwellers, rural homes and businesses, infrastructure such as temporary roadside signage, etc., but nobody wants to consider the "other clean energy" -- nuclear power.
 
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This is not necessarily about power generation, but I think might be a close enough parellel topic.

I am stuck with a smart meter, and I am not a big fan of having my power usage profiled down to the minute.
I have heard of and seen people put mains into nothing but charging a bunch of lead acid batteries, and then powering the house with an inverter. Only as a backup however.
My idea then would be that limiting the charge current could then smooth out the usage curve to the point of not being useful beyond day-by-day averages.
This wastes a lot of energy though.

I've also thought about replacing mains with my own propane/natgas generator. I mean one that's supposedly meant for continuous running, of one exists. Then I could completely middle finger the meter except for generator downtime.
However I imagine my price per kWh would be higher doing this, as well as other unforseen issues involving having my own "power plant".

What do you guys think of these ideas? Any tips or experience? Or have I already lost it?
 
TooManyKittens said:
Well speaking of worthless solar (on large scale I agree fwiw)...

Does anyone have thoughts or recommendations for a portable solar system that can charge I guess a battery but the end goal is:

- Recharge small important electronics.
- maybe have enough spare to recharge non important small electronics.

Things like a flashlight batteries via their charger (18650), phone or e reader, a rechargeable fan (hot climate issues here not cold).

Ideally sized so that say if its only flashlights and fan, a full charge might last you a couple days without sunny weather.

Obviously this is less shtf and more "shit has temporarily been left on the rug" level prep.
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You can buy cheap PV panels, around the 20W size, with just a USB outlet on them. Perfectly good for charging power banks and anything else you can charge off USB. Very cheap, and work reasonably well if you’re somewhere sunny. Great for camping too.

If you want to go one step bigger and more useful - look at Ecoflow products or similar style”solar generators” - these are just a battery and inverter in a convenient portable unit, with AC power outlets as well as USB. You can charge them up from a car 12V socket, or grid, or solar panels (they make a portable fold out set to go with it).

Even bigger again, I have about 10kW of fixed panels on the roof and battery storage, and can go fully off grid for most of the year (including a lot of miles on the car), but choose whatever suits your needs and budget.

I’ve designed and helped install a number of small hydro systems too, not lucky enough to have flowing water on my land though.

a
Sobake said:
This is not necessarily about power generation, but I think might be a close enough parellel topic.

I am stuck with a smart meter, and I am not a big fan of having my power usage profiled down to the minute.
I have heard of and seen people put mains into nothing but charging a bunch of lead acid batteries, and then powering the house with an inverter. Only as a backup however.
My idea then would be that limiting the charge current could then smooth out the usage curve to the point of not being useful beyond day-by-day averages.
This wastes a lot of energy though.
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No, that’s a reasonable approach, that’s what I do in the winter. The reward for taking the power when it’s plentiful (at night) is that it’s a fraction of the daytime price. I charge up a lithium battery and use it to run heat pump heating all day.
You do lose around 10% of the energy but you’re still paying way less than half per kWh used.
The other trick, if your supplier allows it, is to sell back power during the peak rate time if you have it spare. I can sometimes end up in profit for days at a time even in winter, just buying and selling. In summer I am selling a bunch of self generated power most days.

To me this is a better method than running a generator. As you noted, it will be more expensive just on fuel, never mind the maintenance. Plus you’ll have the noise and diesel smoke to enjoy. Generator as a last resort and if you’re fully off grid it should be secondary to a lot of solar - otherwise the upkeep is just a pita (trust me, been there done that).
 
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davids877 said:
One thing I see often is people on-grid try and size their emergency power generation to run everything. Sure, you can do that but you're going to burn a ton of extra fuel. Think about maybe tolerating not being able to run the air conditioner, dryer, water heater and range at the same time. Sure, it could be out for a while and you need to do laundry but be rational with your usage and power needs. And if it's an emergency getting more fuel may be a problem.
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If you can do without the biggest loads (central A/C, electric stoves, electric water heaters, etc) people would be surprised how little power you really need to live relatively comfortably. I survived a 5 day power outage with a 3000 watt generator, and I wasn't miserable the whole time.

-5000 BTU Window A/C kept the bedroom cool. Wasn't worried about the temperature in the rest of the house.
-Refrigerator and deep freezer.
-A TV, a laptop, my Xbox, phone chargers, etc.
-Occasionally a small appliance (Microwave, Coffee Maker, Toaster...)

I never tripped the generator's breaker. I could tell is struggled a little bit when the compressors of cooling appliances kicked on, but it worked for 5 days without issue.
 
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NotADrunkLawyer said:
-5000 BTU Window A/C kept the bedroom cool. Wasn't worried about the temperature in the rest of the house.
-Refrigerator and deep freezer.
-A TV, a laptop, my Xbox, phone chargers, etc.
-Occasionally a small appliance (Microwave, Coffee Maker, Toaster...)
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You could be even more efficient by using a chest freezer and DIY chest fridge with a DIY mini fridge for drinks. The better insulation really helps. You can also boost efficiency in pre-power outage by storing tons of water within the empty spaces of your fridges and freezers, which acts as cold “batteries” to even out fluctuations in temperature and reduce the need for the compressor further. Plus the added benefit that in a low water situation you can have gallons of water on hand.

And make sure the AC room is properly insulated and you have infrared cooling panels over the windows to prevent sunlight from heating it and making the AC work harder.

And in those conditions, aside from powering a cellphone/NOAA radio, I’d be aiming for a kindle with tons of books (when not reading physically). Though a low power SBC with RetroPie is quite tempting as well.
 
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Has anyone else but myself considered the option of a home steam engine to generate power?

As in, a specialized wood burning stove in your basement that boils water and uses the steam to make a turbine go spin?

Obviously wood burning is dirty, but when you've got nothing else but wood scraps, meat fat, cardboard, grill fuel like charcoal or wood pellets, etc, it would be nice to have an option that not only warms your home and cooks your food (including marshmallows or sausages on a stick near the entrance), but also provides electricity as a biproduct.

EDIT: someone else has already brought up gassification, which may be better.
 
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Aero the Alcoholic Bat said:
Has anyone else but myself considered the option of a home steam engine to generate power?

As in, a specialized wood burning stove in your basement that boils water and uses the steam to make a turbine go spin?

Obviously wood burning is dirty, but when you've got nothing else but wood scraps, meat fat, cardboard, grill fuel like charcoal or wood pellets, etc, it would be nice to have an option that not only warms your home and cooks your food (including marshmallows or sausages on a stick near the entrance), but also provides electricity as a biproduct.

EDIT: someone else has already brought up gassification, which may be better.
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Low tech magazine had a article on using thermoelectric modules on things like stoves to generate small amounts of power.


Adding those to a stove or even a gasifier to generate additional power could be a nice way to improve total output of power if you are going to have to heat something anyway.

I do like the idea of harvesting waste heat energy as it's essentially free if you need the heat for something else, a la cooking or water/home heating, same as how a traditional central brick fireplace would be used for cooking, heating water/the building and heat storage in the pre-industrial era.
 
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What if I built a solar array say 100-200 feet from my house, kept the batteries under that, and ran the power in an underground or overhead line to my house? How much space would be talking to live like a typical burger off sol?
 
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