Programming thread

[pussay terminator]

Can a code get demonically posessed?
Can satan be in a code itself, a code that looks innocent?
or does it have to be written in a specific way?

 

[Belisarius Cawl]

any language that makes you have to look up its syntax so you can nest a construct is more retarded than redditors meme perl as being

That particular syntax is the only one in Python that I have to look up at all; most of it is just pseudocode nailed down a little better so a machine can actually make use of it and I rather enjoy Python

lisp invented this in the 1200s when monks working by candlelight discovered how to write parentheses

Yes and it's still substantially easier in Python as opposed to this:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12766411/how-can-one-print-values-of-nested-hashes-in-perl

CPAN has all these great modules but so much of what's in them should be in Perl's base which is why I look forward to learning Raku (Perl but having learned from Perl 5's numerous mistakes)

sloppy as fuck but mildly informative
why declare variables as nonlocal though is python a statically typed language now

I don't see the relation between nonlocal and static typing

 

[Creative Username]

Yes and it's still substantially easier in Python as opposed to this:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12766411/how-can-one-print-values-of-nested-hashes-in-perl CPAN has all these great modules but so much of what's in them should be in Perl's base which is why I look forward to learning Raku (Perl but having learned from Perl 5's numerous mistakes)

most languages with hash tables somehow get a function that recursively crawls hash tables and prints them and it stops being a problem quickly
if it doesn't have such a function then you can write one, it's not a super big deal
most of them are lackluster when compared to the lisp family's write function, which can serialize almost any object you throw at it into text that results in an identical object when passed into read
javascript comes closest with its json functions

I don't see the relation between nonlocal and static typing

other languages with a similar ethos to python let me mutate from inside a closure without having to tell the interpreter that i'm going to mutate it
if you're going to do that then why not also make every other variable const by default? that would be consistent and make sense though

 

[Belisarius Cawl]

most languages with hash tables somehow get a function that recursively crawls hash tables and prints them and it stops being a problem quickly
if it doesn't have such a function then you can write one, it's not a super big deal

It isn't but then it still becomes something I have to import

most of them are lackluster when compared to the lisp family's write function, which can serialize almost any object you throw at it into text that results in an identical object when passed into read

This seems like a Common Lisp thing specifically. I'm curious, can it even do procedures and objects?

javascript comes closest with its json functions

Python's base also has a JSON module, aptly named json

other languages with a similar ethos to python let me mutate from inside a closure without having to tell the interpreter that i'm going to mutate it
if you're going to do that then why not also make every other variable const by default? that would be consistent and make sense though

Not sure I follow your reasoning

 

[Unimaginative Username]

sloppy as fuck but mildly informative
why declare variables as nonlocal though is python a statically typed language now

Because Python's perverse scoping rules take assignment to any variable not explicitly declared as nonlocal to be declaration of an implicit local variable in the current (in this case, nested) function. This is how Python people talk:

>>> def make_counter():
...     count = 0
...     def counter():
...         nonlocal count
...         count += 1
...         return counter
...     
>>> counter = make_counter()
>>> counter()
1
>>> counter()
2
>>> counter()
3

In this example, count holds a reference to an integer value, which is immutable. To update the value of count, you use a nonlocal statement that tells Python you want to reuse the variable from the non-local scope.



When your variable points to a mutable object, you can modify the variable’s value in place:

>>> def make_appender():
...     items = []
...     def appender(new_item):
...         items.append(new_item)
...         return items
...     return appender
...

>>> appender = make_appender()

>>> appender("First item")
['First item']
>>> appender("Second item")
['First item', 'Second item']
>>> appender("Third item")
['First item', 'Second item', 'Third item']

Use of a nonlocal declaration has nothing to do with whether the object bound to the nonlocal variable is mutable or not, it depends on whether you're assigning a new object to the variable or not. The second example doesn't need a nonlocal declaration because it's mutating the list that's already bound, but if it were binding a different list to the variable it would need a nonlocal declaration to avoid creating a local variable that masks the nonlocal. This confusion between variables and values is pervasive in the Python userbase.

Speaking of this affecting all Python example code, I've examined the source code for threading.local and found that the post from guy with line noise for a user name is right: What you're supposed to do is bind an instance of threading.local to a global variable, and then all of the "variables" it implements are secretly hash tables that get indexed by the current thread every time you access them. None of the example code I've ever seen actually uses it this way and the official documentation is dogshit as usual. The main "feature" this seems to buy you is that the thread-local namespaces are tightly bound to a module and loosely bound to a thread (whereas having a dictionary in each thread object mapping modules to thread-local namespaces does the opposite). The only "advantage" of doing this is that each module can set defaults for its thread-local variables, which are then used for every freshly-spawned thread as opposed to having each module just set the thread-locals to their default values at import time and then having each child thread's thread-local namespaces start out as copies of the parent's, which would actually be useful. Otherwise, all you get is additional lookup overhead, a conceptual model that's different for the sake of being different, and a lot more "spooky action at a distance", and if I wanted I wanted spooky action at a distance, I would be using Ruby on Rails.

 

[Creative Username]

This seems like a Common Lisp thing specifically. I'm curious, can it even do procedures and objects?

most languages in the lisp family can write out any data you can express as a literal in the syntax you would expect as a literal, and i assume common lisp is exactly the same
it may or may not have support for various weird pieces of data like lambdas and records but it can express anything you can make out of cons pairs, even circular structures i think

Python's base also has a JSON module, aptly named json

yeah most languages can read and write json but the interesting thing here is that javascript is partially made of json (but not fully made out of json like how most lisps are made out of s-expressions)

Not sure I follow your reasoning

my reasoning is why the goddamn fuck do i have to type nonlocal in the first place

the point here is that python may be useful but it's very ugly, perhaps even more ugly than perl has a reputation for being

Use of a nonlocal declaration has nothing to do with whether the object bound to the nonlocal variable is mutable or not, it depends on whether you're assigning a new object to the variable or not. The second example doesn't need a nonlocal declaration because it's mutating the list that's already bound, but if it were binding a different list to the variable it would need a nonlocal declaration to avoid creating a local variable that masks the nonlocal. This confusion between variables and values is pervasive in the Python userbase.

jesus fucking christ i'm getting the migraine again where's my copy of the Revised Report i need to read about a language that doesn't completely suck balls

 

[analrapist]

the lisp family's write function, which can serialize almost any object you throw at it into text that results in an identical object when passed into read

From the Prolog end of things, there are predicates that can do this (write_canonical), but you'd never bother, because you'd just declare the terms as persistent ( https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=persistency ), tell the engine where you want them saved, and the engine handles the rest.

 

[Creative Username]

From the Prolog end of things, there are predicates that can do this (write_canonical), but you'd never bother, because you'd just declare the terms as persistent ( https://www.swi-prolog.org/pldoc/man?section=persistency ), tell the engine where you want them saved, and the engine handles the rest.

a lot of common lisp implementations let you dump core images and resume them too

 

[Belisarius Cawl]

my reasoning is why the goddamn fuck do i have to type nonlocal in the first place

the point here is that python may be useful but it's very ugly, perhaps even more ugly than perl has a reputation for being

I'm pretty sure it's a wrinkle of how scoping works in Python and appears to be quite uncommon. I actually didn't even know about it until that article. (Knew about Python's lexical closures in the context of accessing variables in lexical scope but not changing them.) To make things a bit more concrete, I'm looking at a venv I made in the context of rendering a mapping webshit and matplotlib (~111K LOC) uses nonlocal 15 times, mostly for tests. Of the others that use it at all (which is a tiny minority of the whole venv), the number is typically much lower, as with only 2 instances for numpy (~179K LOC). I have a very hard time seeing Python as less readable and uglier than Perl just because of nonlocal.

a lot of common lisp implementations let you dump core images and resume them too

R also has this feature, possibly due to its Lisp heritage, but you're advised not to use it for the purposes of reproducibility

EDIT: basing LOC numbers on what's in the venv is probably pretty faulty but the overall point is still that nonlocal is really not super common

 

[Creative Username]

I have a very hard time seeing Python as less readable and uglier than Perl just because of nonlocal.

syntax is merely a retarded illusion and the real meat of the language is how it works
having to add declarations to variables to work around a design fuckup when you're doing something as simple as mutating shit in a closure is a sign of pure niggerliciousness
as you can see perl seems to have no problem with closures, except for a bit of weird namespace fuckery where i had to put a -> in the call:

sub closure{
    my $sneed = shift;
    return sub{$sneed++;};
};
my $chuck = closure(1);
print $chuck->(), $chuck->(), $chuck->(); # fuck and suck

your packages have few instances of lexical closure usage because python niggers have a weird fetish for all writing shit the exact same way and being "pythonic" yet it seems they still eventually ran into this ugly corner of the language anyway

 

[analrapist]

a lot of common lisp implementations let you dump core images and resume them too

Yeah, I couldn't imagine that with Lisp's general metaprogramming facilities, this kind of automation wouldn't be achievable. Lisps and friends seem to be a lot more minimalist in the libraries they ship with. SWI in particular is borderline-insanely maximalist. Scryer Prolog (Rust implementation) is substantially leaner, but that's maybe because it's newer.

 

[Belisarius Cawl]

syntax is merely a retarded illusion and the real meat of the language is how it works
having to add declarations to variables to work around a design fuckup when you're doing something as simple as mutating shit in a closure is a sign of pure niggerliciousness
as you can see perl seems to have no problem with closures, except for a bit of weird namespace fuckery where i had to put a -> in the call:

I'd also not like to have to use bless for basic objects

sub closure{
    my $sneed = shift;
    return sub{$sneed++;};
};
my $chuck = closure(1);
print $chuck->(), $chuck->(), $chuck->(); # fuck and suck

I had to paste this into perl to make sure I knew what it was doing and remembered Perl doesn't seem to have much in the way of REPLs. I just installed Reply and after poking around a bit it does seem much less advanced than IPython. Jupyter Notebook support is also nearly nonexistent. (There is an IPerl kernel but it is very bare-bones and I just uninstalled it after brief exposure.)

your packages have few instances of lexical closure usage because python niggers have a weird fetish for all writing shit the exact same way and being "pythonic" yet it seems they still eventually ran into this ugly corner of the language anyway

Without more extensive review, I don't know whether the instances in question are in the context of closures

 

[Creative Username]

I'd also not like to have to use bless for basic objects

yes im not saying perl is a paragon of elegance, because it isn't, but i think that python isn't really much better

I had to paste this into perl to make sure I knew what it was doing and remembered Perl doesn't seem to have much in the way of REPLs.

yeah it's very lackluster i would probably at least rlwrap it if i had to use it a ton

Jupyter Notebook support is also nearly nonexistent.

heard about this it seems like literate programming slop which is not very interesting to me
i just want a good repl and a language which is capable of easily expressing a problem with no random arbitrary limitations

Yeah, I couldn't imagine that with Lisp's general metaprogramming facilities, this kind of automation wouldn't be achievable. Lisps and friends seem to be a lot more minimalist in the libraries they ship with.

this is more of a runtime thing tbh, lua and a lot of schemes don't do this even though they could if they wanted to

 

[Belisarius Cawl]

yes im not saying perl is a paragon of elegance, because it isn't, but i think that python isn't really much better

I would say that Python is substantially easier to read than Perl

heard about this it seems like literate programming slop which is not very interesting to me

That's part of it and I've noticed you can test how well you understand the code and the concepts involved in it by how well you can describe it in the interstitial Markdown sections but it goes substantially beyond that; in the example where I was looking at the venv I rendered the entire Folium map inside of the Jupyter Notebook. (I also saved it as a single .html file with all of the JS and styling hocked in so I could put it on my github.io page which I will obviously not be linking here.)

i just want a good repl and a language which is capable of easily expressing a problem with no random arbitrary limitations

Which random arbitrary limitations

 

[Creative Username]

Which random arbitrary limitations

stuff like having to add some gay annotation because the language doesn't treat variables and scopes in an easily understandable way

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Jeets love python, but you can always python better than a jeet.
Python is a great scripting language in the right hands.

I thought JavaScript was the preferred jeet language, not Python.

 

[Belisarius Cawl]

stuff like having to add some gay annotation because the language doesn't treat variables and scopes in an easily understandable way

One could easily say many similar things about Perl:

Python (and pretty much everything else) doesn't have this particular feature. On a related note, since we're talking about variables and what can be put in them, I want to have arbitrary-precision integers, decimals and fractions without resorting to third-party libraries:

In [5]: 2**2**2**2**2
Out[5]: 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See how that's not just Inf?

 

[Creative Username]

I thought JavaScript was the preferred jeet language, not Python.

python is one of the languages in the holy jeet trinity: js, python, and java

One could easily say many similar things about Perl:

Python (and pretty much everything else) doesn't have this particular feature.

i agree sigils are a bitch, but python has a few sigil-equivalent things here and there

On a related note, since we're talking about variables and what can be put in them, I want to have arbitrary-precision integers, decimals and fractions without resorting to third-party libraries:
See how that's not just Inf?

i just checked my standard perl distribution and i see man pages about how to do arbitrary precision rational arithmetic

 

[Belisarius Cawl]

python is one of the languages in the holy jeet trinity: js, python, and java

i agree sigils are a bitch, but python has a few sigil-equivalent things here and there

Like what?

i just checked my standard perl distribution and i see man pages about how to do arbitrary precision rational arithmetic

Which page is this because so far I see that Math::BigInt is on CPAN

 

[Creative Username]

Like what?

it has lots of those batshit insane "elegant" syntax sugar that looks like some retarded haskell shit and then you try to do a closure and you have to declare your variable "nonlocal" which makes very little sense

Which page is this because so far I see that Math::BigInt is on CPAN

pacman -Ql perl | grep Math
maybe the arch packagers included some stuff from cpan in the standard perl for some unknown reason but it doesn't seem very 3rd party if it comes bundled in with the interpreter