r/polyamory

Redpillers believe in this and call it "the shit test." Basically they see every woman as having the maturity of a teenager who is testing the boundaries of the dominant man in their lives, first their father then their boyfriend. It's actually not too false a concept, but it's dangerous to only attribute it as a silly woman thing like TRP does. Any manipulative person who wants to have their cake and eat it too does this.

It's also true in applications that don't apply to women and can be applied as a concept to virtually anyone.

It's most common in bullies/criminals who will "shit test" potential marks to try and see if they are likely or not likely to fight back before moving up their aggression - but you can also basically "shit test" anyone with something small to see if you can push for something larger.
 
I guess people are absolutely shocked that a guy who pushes polyamory on others is actually a shitty dude? I didn't even read the article all the way through, but his callout seemed significant enough to take note of.

https://medium.com/@fv.survivor.pod/on-light-and-shadow-polyamorys-metoo-411e0275c2fe

Franklin Veaux’s work has shed light. His writings about polyamory have been valuable resources that have helped countless people find their way to happier, more fulfilling polyamorous relationships.

Franklin Veaux’s life has also cast a shadow. This shadow stretches back decades, and its darkness has enveloped those who have been closest to him — especially, though not exclusively, those who tried to share their lives with him.

The light he has shed has made the shadow difficult to see. And so, the damage left in his wake, and the women who have borne that damage, have remained invisible.

It is time to bring these women and their stories into the light.

Six women have come forward with stories of experiences with Franklin that do not align with his public persona, his self-described stories of his relationships, or the values stated in his writing. These women include all three of his past nesting partners, as well as the women who have featured most prominently in his personal narratives.

Their stories demonstrate a pervasive and longstanding pattern of serious harm. They are specific and detailed, they are consistent with one another across decades, and they are supported by written documentation and witness accounts. Evidence in support of the women’s accounts can also be found in Franklin’s own writing.

The women’s experiences indicate that Franklin has patterns of manipulation, gaslighting, and lying; leverages his multiple partners against one another; tests or ignores boundaries; pathologizes his partners’ normal emotions and weaponizes their mental illnesses; exploits women financially; uses women’s ideas and experiences in his work without permission or credit; grooms significantly younger, less experienced, or vulnerable women; lacks awareness of power dynamics and consent; has involved women in group sex and other sexual activities that they experienced as coercive; and accepts no responsibility for the harm he causes by engaging in these behaviors — often blaming other women, or the harmed women themselves, for that harm.

These behaviors escalate when Franklin lives with a partner, and he becomes verbally abusive when his nesting relationships end. The severity of this pattern is illustrated by the fact that none of his former nesting partners will be alone with him. Two of them, over a decade apart, fled the homes they shared with him at the end of the relationships. Their written records from the time of leaving him show evidence of trauma.

The women who have told their stories describe effects on them that range from lingering confusion and self-doubt all the way to self-harm, suicidal ideation, lasting trauma requiring years or decades to repair, and long-lasting or permanent damage to their ability to trust others, enjoy intimacy, or enter into healthy romantic relationships.

A Call for Justice

“Cornel West says that ‘justice is what love looks like in public.’ I won’t experience the love of healing in a system that tears victims apart; you will not experience the love of accountability in a system that simply enacts more violence against those who have harmed others.” — Dr. Lucia Lorenzi

We have come together to support and advocate for the survivors. We come from many communities shared with Franklin and the women he has harmed, and many of the communities impacted by harm. We have varying relationships to and experiences with Franklin and with the harmed women. We include a licensed therapist who specializes in abuse and trauma, people with experience in anti-abuse work and transformative justice, scene organizers, and people with other necessary skills. We have been asked to come together to support the women and create space for their voices.

For survivors, healing comes from having harm witnessed. This is doubly true in a case like this, where harm was amplified by the public erasure of so many women and their stories. These women’s experiences are real, and they matter. They are as important as Franklin’s own stories. Our core work is to collect the women’s testimonies and find appropriate ways to share them, to make them a part of the historical record that already includes Franklin’s stories, and to work with our communities to protect the safety and boundaries of the women.

We ask for the support of our communities in this process. We ask for you to listen to the women, amplify their voices, protect their safety, and ask hard questions when you encounter narratives that appear to define or lay claim to their experiences, or where their voices are missing.

Many people throughout many polyamorous scenes — including every member of this group, and some of the harmed women themselves — have played a role in amplifying Franklin’s narrative and expanding his reach. Moreover, Franklin is far from the only person with social capital to have wielded it in harmful ways, nor are his former partners the only people to have experienced this particular kind of harm in polyamorous relationships. We have collective work to do in naming harm, healing from harm, and learning to do less harm to one another. We hope that this moment can be used to propel forward the hard conversations that will lead to collective healing, accountability and transformation.

Polyamory is not an organized movement. We have no governing body to which we can petition for a process of justice. We must rely on a loose network of organizers, spokespeople and other “leaders” to hear the women’s voices and take action that moves us all toward greater healing and safety. We therefore must ask our fellow activists, speakers, organizers and leaders, as individuals, to support our call for justice. We will make additional requests later, but below are some initial steps we are requesting of our communities:

  • Share this statement and make clear your support for the survivors and this process.
  • If you are not already in communication with the survivors about these issues, respect their privacy and boundaries and do not contact them directly about this process or the testimonies (theirs or Franklin’s). (Statements of solidarity or support may be submitted through the email listed below.)
  • Educate yourself on abuse and transformative justice using reliable sources. (Some good places to start on accountability are 1, 2, 3, and on abuse, 1, 2, 3.)
  • Do not give Franklin a platform to speak as an expert about abuse, accountability or transformative justice, or promote his work on these subjects.
  • When booking speakers or interviewees on such sensitive topics as abuse, pay close attention to the specific qualifications and experience of the proposed resource, rather than public profile, “celebrity” status, or the certainty with which someone speaks.
  • Pay attention: Ask questions and read the survivor statements when they are available. Closely examine the narrative of Franklin and his partners for statements that attempt to define the reality, experiences or feelings of the survivors. Confront narrative control and manipulation wherever you see it.
  • Be aware that Franklin and some of his partners are using their platforms to continue to deflect responsibility and to gaslight and discredit the women who have come forward. Consider this when you make decisions about which of their work to share, or what you might book them to speak or be interviewed about, before they have completed their own work and fully acknowledged the harms done. Consider the message you are sending to survivors, and the kind of space you are offering, when you give them a platform.
  • We do not want for Franklin, or any of his partners, to be excluded from their communities or severed from social support. However, we ask that the safety of survivors be prioritized at events, which may mean denying Franklin entry, upon request, to certain events or spaces that survivors wish to attend. We expect these instances to be rare and have only minimal impact on Franklin’s access to community.
  • Respect the humanity of everyone involved and avoid reinforcing abusive beliefs by refraining from using, or tolerating, dehumanizing language to refer to Franklin, his enabling partners, or any of the survivors or suspected survivors.
We are not requesting a boycott of any of Franklin’s published work, and none of the survivors have asked for this. That said, do remain mindful of the fact that his stories about past relationships consistently differ from his past partners’ experiences, to a degree that goes beyond what can be explained by two people remembering the same events differently.

Franklin can be charming and kind. He has helped many people, and many people — especially people who have never been romantically involved with him, or who have spent only short periods of time with him — have had nothing but good experiences with him. Many of the women he’s harmed also experienced idyllic early relationships with him. Idyllic “vacation” relationships are especially easy to sustain over many years when a partner is long-distance. His long-distance partners, and partners who have not been through the end of an invested relationship with him, may never have experienced the kinds of harm from him experienced by those who became more entwined.

None of these other experiences diminish the weight of the harmed women’s stories. In fact, Franklin’s gentle, feminist public persona has amplified the harm the women have experienced, ensuring they will not be believed, privileging his story over theirs, and increasing their isolation. If the stories of these women contrast with your own experiences of Franklin, we invite you to consider that no one who is abusive is abusive to everyone, or even all the time to those people they abuse; no one who has not lived with Franklin can know what it is like to live with him; and no one who has not ended a relationship with him can know how he behaves at the end of a relationship. It is, as Franklin himself has written, possible for him to be simultaneously easy to love and dangerous to love.

An Offer of Accountability

“If he really truly believed that he was doing harm, and not just that his partner was experiencing harm in his vicinity, I think he would actually change his behavior.” — “Amber,” Franklin’s first “game changer”

Many people have tried many times over many years to explain to Franklin the harm he has caused and offer him a chance to change, with no effect. He has cut off partners, friends, communities and social groups as a result of having his harmful behaviors named. He has been offered, and refused, a community accountability process at least once. What we are doing here is not about reforming or changing Franklin or giving him a redemption arc. Our work is not focused on Franklin, nor does it rely on his participation; it is about centering the women he has left damaged in his wake and creating some community change. Nevertheless, we, and the women themselves, believe strongly that no one is disposable, and that a path to accountability — separate from the process of supporting the survivors — should be open to Franklin.

We make no assertions about Franklin’s motivations, his experiences, his innate character or his internal world. It is not our role to prescribe penalties or a process of change for Franklin, or to monitor such. None of the harmed women desires punishment for Franklin, and many still express compassion and care for him. We acknowledge that Franklin has also experienced suffering, and we believe it is possible to hold space for his own pain without minimizing, excusing or enabling his harmful actions.

Therefore, as a final gesture of goodwill, we have sent Franklin a call-in letter naming the harm done, asking that he initiate his own accountability process, and outlining what accountability would look like to the survivors. He has indicated via a public Quora post that he declines, but we stand ready to liaise with his accountability team should he change his mind.

We believe that the people who love and care for Franklin, and who have benefitted from his work, can learn to support him and hold him in community without enabling him to do further harm, or further amplifying the harm he has already done. For the people who choose that role, we ask that you read the call-in letter and lovingly but firmly hold him to its terms. Our own priority, however, is not Franklin. Our priority is the women harmed, their experiences, their safety and healing, and the restoration of their voices — and on the effects on our communities of the harm done, as well as the effects of the beliefs and behaviors that enabled that harm.

The Road Ahead

This statement is only the first step of an organic process that will take time. We do not have a strict game plan apart from supporting the survivors and correcting the record. Not all the answers will be available immediately, and some never will be. We believe that openness and free sharing of information are antidotes to abuse, and so we plan to be as transparent as possible. This is long, messy, difficult work, which will be carried forward into our communities with impacts far beyond this particular situation. To quote adrienne maree brown, “we will learn together the other strategies that will ultimately help us break these cycles, liberate future generations from the burden of our shared and private pain, leaving nothing unspeakable in our bones, no shame in our dirt.”

If you have any questions or feedback about this process, have skills or energy to offer, or have a story to share, send an email to fv.survivor.pod@gmail.com . This account is monitored by Jakob Liljenwall, and messages may be shared with other members of the survivor advocacy team, denoted with asterisks below, unless requested otherwise. If you have been harmed or have witnessed harm, or otherwise have a story to share about an experience with Franklin, we have set up a Google form to submit anonymous or confidential stories.
 
It's also true in applications that don't apply to women and can be applied as a concept to virtually anyone.

It's most common in bullies/criminals who will "shit test" potential marks to try and see if they are likely or not likely to fight back before moving up their aggression - but you can also basically "shit test" anyone with something small to see if you can push for something larger.

Absolutely. Most people suffering from Cluster B personality disorders WILL 'shit test' people. I actually prefer to call it a 'fitness test', because this is found primarily in abusive relationships.

TRP gets a lot of things wrong, but this isn't one of them. They just don't look at it from the perspective of all human relationships.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/auhb4z/need_advice_for_depressed_husband/ (Archive)

My husband and I have been polyamorous for 7 years. During that time, I have had 3 long term boyfriends and he's gone on a handful of dates. I have been with my current boyfriend for almost a year and my husband has started requesting limitations on my time with him. He's mentioned his loneliness, anxiety, and depression becoming worse when I'm away and said he doesn't think he can handle me staying over at my boyfriend's place anymore.
We've been together 15 years total and I've been firm in saying that I can't go back to monogamy. He's on medication and has been seeing a therapist for months. He's given up on his dating profiles because he hasn't seen any responses to his messages. I've offered to update his profiles, but he said they're already fine as is.
What can I do to help him? I love him and my boyfriend, but being his only source of happiness has been a huge stressor for me.

"I'm willing to do anything to help my husband, whom I love, except even considering slowing down my side relationship that is not even a year old" or "How can I make my husband happy and make him feel loved without having to waste time hanging out with him?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/attzds/advise_please_how_to_revert/ (Archive)

The OP
I admit that I was not a very good husband. I am working on fixing things to be a better person and a better husband. I made mistakes. I was in a very dark place and I pulled myself into a hole, and I shut my wife out. I tried to be supportive of my wife but emotionally, I was not there.
She said that she wanted to be polyamourous this past year. I felt that if I didn't say yes, I would lose her, so I swallowed what was left of me and agreed. She found another about a month later.
I have been pulling myself up through my issues and am in a better place. I still love her with all my heart but I want it to only be us again. I have thought about trying a gf myself but can't go through with it. I only want to be with her.
Is it selfish of me to ask her to break up with him or should I let her go? I either want to be all with her or not, because I don't think my heart can take it.
TL-DR - I said yes to polyamory to stay with my wife but now I want to be monogamous. What should I do?

OP in comments, choice quotes
I'm currently out of the country so I figured that by the time I get back, I would have figured what I really want. I have over half a year to go.

...she doesn't want to be physical with me and she doesn't know if she ever will be. Sometimes I start to fall back and think that she wants a monogamous relationship with him but just doesn't have the heart to let me go. Over the past few months, I have been the one to say I love you and that prompts her to reply. She has rarely said it first.

I make decent money doing this. My travels don't really come close to where she lives. I told her that I would drop everything and move to her if she wanted, but I don't think she wants me to. Sometimes I think she only wants me around for the money.

I know that the last time we talked about relationships, she said that I had become the secondary.

Here the OP lays out a step by step guide on how to remove yourself from your own relationship.

  1. Ignore your wife - make sure it's really hardcore and be a dick the few times you're home (as you travel all the time for work)
  2. Say "yes" when your wife wants to date someone else, even if you realize it's a horrible idea
  3. Ask for sex and get shutdown, get told "maybe I'll never want you again"
  4. Still cover your wife's finances, essentially funding your own cuckoldry.
  5. Ask you wife where you stand in her heart, get told you're #2 (of 2 people, or last place). She loves someone she's known for a few months more than you, her husband of (presumably) a number of years.
  6. Make a reddit thread asking, in essence "Guys, my wife loves this guy more than me, doesn't like talking to me, doesn't want to fuck me, we're basically seperated but she's still cashing the checks - is this relationship not working correctly?"
 
And today in "Nothing here could possibly go wrong":
687815


This guy is less mature than his kid, I'd guarantee it.
 
And today in "Nothing here could possibly go wrong": View attachment 687815

This guy is less mature than his kid, I'd guarantee it.

He is, at the very least, getting destroyed in the comments.

Again, not because that makes him creepy (although personally I find it highly suspicious). It’s about what it will be like for an 8th grader to have someone who just graduated from high school in his house and fucking his Dad.

It's okay, they've probably already met at school, so no need to introduce them

You don't even call her a woman. You're not in a relationship with a woman, but in your words with an 18 year old girl. That in and of itself speaks to the real reason behind your "relationship."

I would be willing to bet real money that if they go through with this that boy will be talking about it in therapy for years
 
That is so fucked, dude. Like that girl is only a few years older than his kid- and that's just the tip of the iceberg here, lol.

Also, she's gotta be fucked up in the head. Only 18 and already ready to jump at the chance to move in with some dude twice her age? They can't have been together for very long, certainly not long enough to have gotten to know each other and plan through this. And if they have, our friend here was potentially grooming a minor for sex, YIKES. :story:

Girl needs to love herself some more, damn.
 
'how can i introduce my girlfriend to my son?'
Hm difficult question.At the very least his son is gonna be resentfull of his dad 'damn no wonder i can't get a girlfriend dad is stealing all the good looking ones'.Joking aside that actually is a plausible reaction for a 13 year old boy to have when realising his dad is out scouting for teenage girls.To be 100% fair we have no direct indication that his dad was grooming that girl before she turned 18 only suspicions.
 
And today in "Nothing here could possibly go wrong": View attachment 687815
"Son, this is Becky. We met on FetLife and she's graduating from the high school you'll be going to next year! Neat, huh?"
Also, 33/34 year old parents with 13 year old kid ? Jeez. Just because your 20s weren't fun doesn't mean you have to traumatize your kids now.
 
And today in "Nothing here could possibly go wrong": View attachment 687815

This guy is less mature than his kid, I'd guarantee it.
And his next post in a few years will be "How can I tell my son I want to date his girlfriend? He needs to better understand poly relationships."

God, these people are so selfish. He's more worried about his son getting upset and not thinking about why.
 
God, these people are so selfish. He's more worried about his son getting upset and not thinking about why.
And the really sad thing is that he is one of the better ones. He is actually thinking ahead and considering the boy’s feelings before bringing the girlfriend in. Many of these poly parents are like WTF are kids freaking out for? Sure we have little less time for them and there is new person living with us but they liked Kate (F21) well enough when they met her last month at picnic. Can’t these kids just see this making mommy and daddy happy?
 
Even if only thinking about himself, doesn't he realize his son is going to tell everyone? All the other parents and all the teachers at his son's school are gonna know. If this is a small or even small-ish town, that's not going to be fun for him at all.

"Son, this is Becky. We met on FetLife and she's graduating from the high school you'll be going to next year! Neat, huh?"
Also, 33/34 year old parents with 13 year old kid ? Jeez. Just because your 20s weren't fun doesn't mean you have to traumatize your kids now.
I'm curious to know more about the backstory, especially since they only have the one kid, which seems unusual for a couple that got married that young. Loveless shotgun-wedding marriage?
 
Even if only thinking about himself, doesn't he realize his son is going to tell everyone? All the other parents and all the teachers at his son's school are gonna know. If this is a small or even small-ish town, that's not going to be fun for him at all.


I'm curious to know more about the backstory, especially since they only have the one kid, which seems unusual for a couple that got married that young. Loveless shotgun-wedding marriage?

Maybe it's his wife's son.
 
I want to scream "just dump them!" at all the people looking for advice on /r/polyamory because they're jealous, or dating an idiot, or the whole situation just sucks.

It really is that easy. Just dump them.
Especially the ones financially supporting the relationship, which seems to be all the ones complaining.
 
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