Plagued /r/TNOmod and the Reddit HOI4 modding community - When a subreddit for a video game mod turns to utter insanity

[Rome's rightful successor]

There are so many completely insane Russian alt history novels.
I forget if they're from here or some Twitter thread but I have a bunch of random cover images of this stuff. They're pretty much all in the category of "retired spetznatz guy goes back in time and makes Russia great again"; there's actually a Russian term for that kind of char: "попаданец". It's apparently extremely insulting and nearly untranslateable.

Darth Vader starring at Hitler and Stalin hands down has to be the best book cover ever.

Is there any background on the author(s) of these books?

 

[RA-5C Vigilante]

I wish I could have a German WW1 Victory scenario where Britain and France aren't commie fever dreams and the ludicrous coincidences that lead to the Second Civil War don't happen, but here we are.

 

[foreman 89]

I wish I could have a German WW1 Victory scenario where Britain and France aren't commie fever dreams and the ludicrous coincidences that lead to the Second Civil War don't happen, but here we are.

Britain and France going communist after losing WW1 is pretty realistic imo, especially France given what happened in 1871. Britain dealt with massive strikes after the war which lead to labour gaining more and more power until they won the 1929 elections. In a scenario where Britain gets crushed by the central powers and war is far more deadly, communists would no doubt gain a foothold.

How do you think a second US civil war would have come about in the 1930s?

 

[Caligura]

I wish I could have a German WW1 Victory scenario where Britain and France aren't commie fever dreams and the ludicrous coincidences that lead to the Second Civil War don't happen, but here we are.

People seem to have a hard time writing about conflicts or 'Cold Wars' that revolve around factions that aren't that different from one another.

It's weird because conflicts like that have literally existed for thousands of years before the 1600s but all of a sudden whenever you do an alternate history scenario, one side  has to be communist, one side has to be liberal-democratic, one side has to be le heckin' evil chud fascists, etc.

A conflict about a defeated yet still surviving (albeit heavily limping) Britain Empire versus the German Empire (which won but is still a relatively young state) would be pretty kino, but alas to most alternate history troons one side has to be some absurd ideology. They seem to forget not every conflict has to be ideological, but rather about power and who gets to be the top dog in which region.

Nevermind the fact that when the Byzantines fought against the Sassanids they weren't really that different from one another politically to name an example.

 

[RA-5C Vigilante]

Britain and France going communist after losing WW1 is pretty realistic imo, especially France given what happened in 1871. Britain dealt with massive strikes after the war which lead to labour gaining more and more power until they won the 1929 elections. In a scenario where Britain gets crushed by the central powers and war is far more deadly, communists would no doubt gain a foothold.

How do you think a second US civil war would have come about in the 1930s?

Well I've written in this thread that I could see France having a revolution. Losing twice to Germany especially after Revanchism would've driven them to the edge. But Britain goes red after the laughably idiotic premise that Germany's navy, nowhere near as numerous and powerful as the Royal Navy would be able to strangle the Home Isles as the U-Boat threat, which is at WW2 levels, not WW1, is a bridge too far for me. And that's not before you get into the problems of Britain having less reasons between a greater political voice for its lower classes versus France, and the fact that Britain had more of a anti-communist streak than France, that both countries had hardcore conservatives in the lower classes as well, revolutions failed in OTL Germany because of said lower classes and military support like the Freikorps, I call bullshit on the Syndie-wank.

I think a Civil War would never have happened in the 1930's. The Anti-Red panic of the twenties would have been worse than the one OTL because it would have succeeded in the West, especially Britain. The crackdowns on even the slightest agitation would have been brutal and swift. The Kaiserreich world assumes that the political classes of the US would have sat around and let things get to catastrophe levels. As retarded as politicians are and were, they would never do anything that would not be in their interest, especially with political machines and things like Tammany Hall being en vogue. The whole scenario is just so the US isn't powerful enough to crush everyone else in the game at best, and accelerationist or fanfic levels of "MY REVOLUTION WOULD WIN" dreck at worst.

Yes I have too much time to think about this nonsense.

 

[EpicGamerMoment]

A conflict about a defeated yet still surviving (albeit heavily limping) Britain Empire versus the German Empire (which won but is still a relatively young state) would be pretty kino, but alas to most alternate history troons one side has to be some absurd ideology. They seem to forget not every conflict has to be ideological, but rather about power and who gets to be the top dog in which region.

France and Britain being syndie is not because of “troons”. Despite the changes the general premise remains the same from the days of HOI II. Although I remember the jokes about KR being simultaneously both a Kaiser-wank and a Syndie-wank were around even back then.

I wish I could have a German WW1 Victory scenario where Britain and France aren't commie fever dreams and the ludicrous coincidences that lead to the Second Civil War don't happen, but here we are.

The “second civil war” is a dumb Hoi4 alt history mod trope that only exists because “Kaiserreich did it”. But I understand it from a technical standpoint. The USA would be op as fuck like it is in Vanilla Hoi4 without a civil war.

 

[General Emílio Médici]

There are so many completely insane Russian alt history novels.
I forget if they're from here or some Twitter thread but I have a bunch of random cover images of this stuff. They're pretty much all in the category of "retired spetznatz guy goes back in time and makes Russia great again"; there's actually a Russian term for that kind of char: "попаданец". It's apparently extremely insulting and nearly untranslateable.

Russian Alternate History is quite the funny. They do some fun shit and the cultural contrast from the American/British literary traditions on the genre makes it like a forbidden fruit or reading stuff written by a alien. I have been looking for this one novel series for years and can never find it translated, and it now escapes me the name, but the writer is some Russian dude who actually joined the Donetsk thing in Ukraine as a commander (he is former USSR tankist) and the novel is about a anomaly causing a meeting between the US Pacific Fleet of the 2010s and one from a USSR where Stalin was the one to break the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact because Hitler delayed the invasion by a week. And the Russian side looks like a real Red Alert meme with Battleships and Ekranoplanes but no radar, rockets but no close quarter missiles. It sounds like a shitload of fun.

 

[Bloudwulf]

The “second civil war” is a dumb Hoi4 alt history mod trope that only exists because “Kaiserreich did it”.

Humorous schizo murder-ideologies weren't nearly as widespread as they were before TNO too. The influence of paradox modding on meme culture is criminally underreported

 

[Corpun]

I wish I could have a German WW1 Victory scenario where Britain and France aren't commie fever dreams and the ludicrous coincidences that lead to the Second Civil War don't happen, but here we are.

This was kind of my riff a HOI4 mod.

TLDR Entente victorious in WW1, but economic crisis destabilizes the victorious powers, so the politics are unstabile.

Britain is relatively fine, but dealing with revolts in the Middle East, Ottomans exist in a rump state with Ataturk as Vizier ready to formally abolish them

France had a revolution (Original I know) and the Commies took over the way Marx predicted communism would rise

Russia is an unstable, shitty republic, basically the same as KR

Germany is an autocratic military state masquerading as a democracy, the Junkers in the military are basically propping the regime up and there are threats of Marxists taking over

I won't actually bother with it though A) Because HOI4 modding is fucking autistic and I don't want to make a toozer mod and B) I'm a lazy fuck.

 

[Rome's rightful successor]

This was kind of my riff a HOI4 mod.

TLDR Entente victorious in WW1, but economic crisis destabilizes the victorious powers, so the politics are unstabile.

Britain is relatively fine, but dealing with revolts in the Middle East, Ottomans exist in a rump state with Ataturk as Vizier ready to formally abolish them

France had a revolution (Original I know) and the Commies took over the way Marx predicted communism would rise

Russia is an unstable, shitty republic, basically the same as KR

Germany is an autocratic military state masquerading as a democracy, the Junkers in the military are basically propping the regime up and there are threats of Marxists taking over

I won't actually bother with it though A) Because HOI4 modding is fucking autistic and I don't want to make a toozer mod and B) I'm a lazy fuck.

Hmmmm...... If I was to make a hoi4 mod it would be about a what if the Fashoda standoff escalated into a world war. It would kinda be like TFR in that you start off in the real life year of 1895 where you can play all the wars of that year leading to the alternate history stuff of the Fashoda standoff in 1898 escalating in a world war between the French Empire and the British along with the rest of the world joining in.

 

[Moja Zemlja]

If we're talking alt-history pipe dream mods I'd do where the Entente won WWI but the US never joined (or Wilson wasn't president) and the French pushed for and got Germany as a nation destroyed with the Entente Cordiale breaking apart shortly after, set it in the usual 1936 date in a zoomed in balkanised Germany with it being a final showdown of the various post-German states fighting to reunify Germany. Have your usual colourful cast of leaders with a few foreign backed nations for the easy mode with it ending when there is only one left and proclaim a reborn Germany.

If anyone played the North America Divided mod imagine something like that.

 

[whothefuck]

Personally I'd try to make a unique setting, cos i think using historical figures/movements just leads to faction autism or favoritism on the dev's side. Maybe something like Arcanum with fantasy races and a magic mechanic. Could be something.

 

[thefreshmaker]

Humorous schizo murder-ideologies weren't nearly as widespread as they were before TNO too.

I remember Posadism being popular in left circles from 2012 to 2016 on reddit. Literal doomsday cultism.

If I was to make a hoi4 mod it would be about a what if the Fashoda standoff escalated into a world war.

Could be an interesting idea, but not very realistic.

People forget that Fashoda took half a year to resolve, with the Moroccan crisis taking over a year. These were very long events that allowed everyone on all sides to get their piece in, figure out what the other side wanted, what was at stake, etc. What made Franzy getting shot so bad for history was that the Austro-Hungarians gave the Serbs 48 hours to come to a decision. Ferdi was shot on 28 June. Austria took almost a month to give an ultimatum on 23 July. The war started 28 July with the great powers getting involved from 1 August.

Everyone, from common folk to intellectuals, thought this would be a nothing burger; Russia basically told the Serbs they'd made this mess and wouldn't receive any support, the other powers weren't too fond of encouraging royal assassinations, ultimately had nothing to gain, and thought a few months of flashy thunder would result in some agreement in the Balkans. Even the Austrians, demanding war, were tempered by the Germans who didn't give a shit about Ferdi, probably less than the Austrians who really only cared because it was the one time they could portray themselves as morally in the right in the Balkans. Everyone, even the Austrian warhawks, thought that this would be a highly limited police action at worst, with some lasting peace hashed out for the great powers. In France, the main news story was a murder trial; the first woman to stand trial for murder in France who successfully pleaded not guilty due to insanity because they used a "man's weapon" (a pistol, and not poison). The first few days were tense, but then it became like Fashoda and Morrocco and all the other crises that passed, or yet another story about Iran (WW3 for real this time!!!1!!).

Everything changed 23 July when Serbia was given 48 hours to respond; that is when European leaders and intellectuals said "this is war". They weren't given the necessary time to react and counter and discuss and so on. It forced everyone to mobilize because it otherwise they'd be caught with their pants down. It was so unexpected with such an obvious result from Austria's ultimatum that generals on holiday were returning before they even received a summons. The Serb generals were actually holidaying in Austria, such was the feeling pre-ultimatum of how this would blow over. German generals were in the French riviera, Russians on the Baltic Sea at Rostock, the French were on the Dalmatian coast, etc. Normally such a situation would have resulted in Austria giving no time limit, everyone discussing and assuaging fears and then getting together for a big drinking session and declaring the crisis over in November 1915. Instead, Russia suddenly saw itself as about to be attacked by surprise by Germany and Austria, Germany suddenly had to activate war plans on the assumption that France would join Russia, France suddenly had the decision whether to support Russia or not made for them, and it all went to shit over night.

So yeah, in terms of designing a scenario that works, it's going to be difficult to get Fashoda to that point. The war happened IRL because there was no time given to the crisis post-ultimatum, where the French and British actually had time to get along and walk away friends after Fashoda. Probably more realistic if there was no Berlin conference and the ownership of Africa was up in the air requiring military actions to enforce it.

 

[RA-5C Vigilante]

How about an alt history where Serbia accepted the Austrian Ultimatum and war was avoided? Probably not a fun HoI4 scenario, but definitely a good Victoria 2 one.

 

[thefreshmaker]

How about an alt history where Serbia accepted the Austrian Ultimatum and war was avoided? Probably not a fun HoI4 scenario, but definitely a good Victoria 2 one.

I think any scenario if designed right would work no matter what, the essential is that it works well and is fun. My issue is more the historicity, and whether or not Serbia accepts the war still happens in my estimation precisely because Serbia did accept; their response was that everything was okay except point 6, which required Austro-Hungarian agents to operate in Serbia with police powers - on that point the Serbs wanted to discuss further. Austria rejected that, vacillated for a few days, and finally declared war.

It's important to note the first reaction of the Serbs was to go to Russia for support; the Russians had the view that Serbia made the mess and had to deal with it, but that Russia would attempt to build public and international opinion against Austria enough to soften whatever actual demands were agreed to by both sides; interestingly enough, the British government was begging Austria to give the Serbs more time in the interest of peace. Despite being the best placed to avoid war, they saw the most benefit in peace with international trade. Ultimately the Austrian demands were unconditional and made with the intent of war happening no matter what; either Serbia agrees on all points and ceases to be an independent state, or Serbia disagrees or wants to negotiate in which case Austria has given hours for everyone to decide what happens before war is declared. There is zero room to manuevre, zero room to negotiate, zero room to somehow shove peace into the mix. It was war, or defeat without a shot.

It cannot be understated just how hawkish the Austrians were, and just how unprepared they were for it. Premier Austrian commander Conrad von Hotzendorf spent his whole pre-war career in the general staff agitating for pre-emptive wars against the neighbors; Serbia, Romania, Russia, and even their "ally" Italy. He also stated, when questioned why Austria did not join the Hague conferences (particularly the disarmament talks), that Austria was already a disarmed country and there was no need. The three forces, the Landwehr (Austrian militia), the Honved (Hungarian Militia) and the K.u.K. Armee (Imperial and Royal Army) were perennially underfunded and behind the curve. The army had a completely devastating intelligence coup in the form of one Alfred Redl, who sold basically every form of data not nailed down in Austria to the Serbs, Russians, French, British, Italians, and even the Germans. He did this purely for money, and likely believed that it did not matter because a war was not possible, or would be so contained as to make his traitorous actions moot. About the only thing going for it was that the subjects of the empire actually were quite loyal; there were no instances of desertion when the call to arms occured in 1914 and despite the poor preparations it appears every man got to his unit and got to the front on time and with a desire to contribute. The Italian Front was commanded by a Croat-Serb in the Austrian army, the Italians fought the Serbs, the Poles fought the Russians, the Transylvanian Romanians fought in the Alps, and the Austrians and Hungarians fought everywhere. Yet inspite of all these issues, Hotzendorf was adament, even in crises unrelated to Austria, that Austria had to strike now. Once the war began and it became clear the nature of the war, he wrote without despair in his diaries and to his long love Virginia von Reininghaus (in letters he never sent and she never received) that Austria would be destroyed in the war and they were finished, but that it would be such an end as to mark a glorious contribution to world history by the everlasting House of the Habsburgs.

The Austrians of 1890-1918 were a bit like an English Terrier or a Jack Russell. Point them in a direction and they will somehow find a way to start a fight. Even if it's a giant mecha that will stomp them with ease, it would surely make a song worth singing a thousand years hence. Unfortunately, Austria-Hungary has long since passed beyond popular memory and the Great War is remembered in almost every nation outside the Czechs and Poles as the end of the happy times in Europe.

 

[Kanuckski]

How about an alt history where Serbia accepted the Austrian Ultimatum and war was avoided? Probably not a fun HoI4 scenario, but definitely a good Victoria 2 one.

You might like Age of Imperialism.

I forget what their excuse is, but the Great War never happens and the UK & Russia go on a hogwild colonial conquest. Britain owns like all of Arabia and pretty much every territory neighboring the Rahj, while basically every state neighboring Russia is their vassal. Austria's path is basically Nazi Germany, It's not realistic, just a fun scenario thrown together by some spergs. Which is as good as it gets when it comes to HoI4 modding.

 

[Corpun]

Personally I'd try to make a unique setting, cos i think using historical figures/movements just leads to faction autism or favoritism on the dev's side. Maybe something like Arcanum with fantasy races and a magic mechanic. Could be something.

An Arcanum Mod would be pretty great, especially if there is a path to exterminating the Gnomish menace.

Once the war began and it became clear the nature of the war, he wrote without despair in his diaries and to his long love Virginia von Reininghaus (in letters he never sent and she never received) that Austria would be destroyed in the war and they were finished, but that it would be such an end as to mark a glorious contribution to world history by the everlasting House of the Habsburgs.

The greatest tragedy of the war is that Franz Joseph signed off on it without much intel besides the promises the warhawks like Hotzendorf made about the war being a quick matter and nothing to be concerned about.

It's honestly kind of shocking how terrible events unfolded in 1914 between July and August with all the inept and apathetic diplomats and politicians and world leaders. I know most people don't think nuclear armageddon actually will happen, but the thought of repeating the July Crisis is appalling to me, especially because the start of WW1 is always dumbed down to, "Franz Ferdinand gets shot in Bosnia by a (Bosniak) Serb nationalist and all of Europe goes to war."

 

[thefreshmaker]

The greatest tragedy of the war is that Franz Joseph signed off on it without much intel besides the promises the warhawks like Hotzendorf made about the war being a quick matter and nothing to be concerned about.

It's honestly kind of shocking how terrible events unfolded in 1914 between July and August with all the inept and apathetic diplomats and politicians and world leaders. I know most people don't think nuclear armageddon actually will happen, but the thought of repeating the July Crisis is appalling to me, especially because the start of WW1 is always dumbed down to, "Franz Ferdinand gets shot in Bosnia by a (Bosniak) Serb nationalist and all of Europe goes to war."

There are two lessons of the war, one lower-order and one higher-order lesson, at least in my view.

The lower-order lesson is that sometimes war is inevitable and you cannot hope to stop it. Think Hitler in Poland or Hotzendorf with the world; sometimes no matter what you do the opposing interlocutor is just so cynical and so in favor of war, even in spite of all credulous reasons not to, that nothing you can do will prevent it. You can only make it less painful by being so lopsidedly prepared that their attack is immediately blunted. This is an obvious lesson and doesn't really help in viewing the history of the beginning of the war or it's expansion.

The higher-order lesson, which actually has been learned, is that the civilian leadership must always be in charge of the military and be kept abreast of the tools and capabilities of their militaries. Diplomats need to know that, for instance, if your military has to go to war that it will always involve invading two neutral neighbors in order to defeat a third, and that that is intended to make defeating a forth neighbor easier. In almost every European country the opinion of the civilians was one of shock that the military could not just suddenly change timetables, or half-way through a mobilization change course, or that the plan for war required half your troops to already be in the process of conquering a neighbor in order to ensure enough space for troops to be unloaded from congested rail yards. This is best exemplified by Kaiser Wilhelm's response to von Moltke advising him the trains were going and could not be stopped even if he wanted to - "your father would have given me a better answer". People realised the huge mistake that was occurring as the armies began to mobilize, and yet nothing could be done to stop it one the button was pressed. Likewise, the militaries were shocked at the civilian leadership's handling of events; they basically had the attitude that someone else had made their bed, and God be damned, they will ensure they are not the ones to sleep in it. Their warplans envisioned basically only total wars with invasions of several neighbors; in Germany's case they invaded France and Belgium, solidifying their informal alliance, and guaranteeing France's entry when it was not clear whether their treaty with Russia even applied - pre-war, the "alliance" was very much stiffling to both. France did not consider the Balkans an essential interest for Russia and therefore not for France, and Russia did not consider Africa an essential interest for France and therefore not for Russia, so they both constrained each other during crises to prevent war.

So you essentially had a civilian leadership that knew little of the capabilities or plans of their own armies, then demanded a solution to a problem they created. The military in response gave them one option, and that option was essentially a poison pill for Russia (involving Germany in a pointless Austro-Serb conflict) and Germany (expanding a large war into a Great War by invading France and Belgium out of fear and France would be involved). In the case of Germany, the fear was so great that no matter what the crisis was in the pre-war period, whether it involved France or otherwise, every outcome would have resulted in 3/4ths of the German Army wheeling through Belgium.

Applied to today, I think we are far safer. Not only are great powers constantly intwined through various means, whether that's the red telephone in the White House and Kremlin or the WTO or whatever else, civilian leadership is firmly in control of the military of all great powers, even in Russia and China, and is intimiately aware of their purpose, capabilities, means, plans, etc. War is still possible, but our ability to control events even at speed has far surpassed what we could in 1914.

 

[EpicGamerMoment]

If we’re talking alt history mods we’d like to see maybe a PoD that is NOT WWI/WWII based for once. Something like Years of Salt and Rice where the black death wipes out %99 of Europe so the two major civilizations are Chinese and Islamic. The world is divided between these two spheres of influence with competition over the Americas, Africa and India. Of course such a PoD this early on means you’re gonna have to use fictional characters a lot.

 

[Mussolini’s Merkin]

You might like Age of Imperialism.

I forget what their excuse is, but the Great War never happens and the UK & Russia go on a hogwild colonial conquest. Britain owns like all of Arabia and pretty much every territory neighboring the Rahj, while basically every state neighboring Russia is their vassal. Austria's path is basically Nazi Germany, It's not realistic, just a fun scenario thrown together by some spergs. Which is as good as it gets when it comes to HoI4 modding.

I'll add another vote for Age of Imperialism, great little mod, though I haven't played it in a while.

EDIT: Booted up the mod last night. Still fun with some more nations added since the last time I played. A little unbalanced though, playing as Iran and got 12 Civs and Mils from two 28 days focuses. Not complaining, but it was kind of funny.