Plagued /r/TNOmod and the Reddit HOI4 modding community - When a subreddit for a video game mod turns to utter insanity

[Pointless Pedant]

Stagnation and corruption would indeed be the main concerns. Also I don't think the Germans had any plans to return to a market economy post war. People like Hjalmar Schact had been removed before the war, and the nazi leaders made it clear that they sought a centrally planned autocracy.

Turns out the real communists were the Nazis we met along the way.

This would lead to a very interesting take if TNO was realistic, since Nazi Germany would slowly decline and fall like the USSR, with clear analogies to the failure of communism. This might inadvertently trigger the mod's far left fanbase.

 

[Übertroon]

Turns out the real communists were the Nazis we met along the way.

This would lead to a very interesting take if TNO was realistic, since Nazi Germany would slowly decline and fall like the USSR, with clear analogies to the failure of communism. This might inadvertently trigger the mod's far left fanbase.

Basically, although the german planned economy would likely be more robust than that of the Soviets. The US would be in a weaker position without the western European market, and German work ethics are generally better than that in Russia.

In the TNO setting the main concern for the Germans would be Japan and the US working together to topple Germany.

The main goal of the mod should have always been the three way cold war between the US, Japan, and Germany rather than the ideological visual novel it became

Also noticed my phone corrected autarky to autocracy so that sucks

 

[Pointless Pedant]

Basically, although the german planned economy would likely be more robust than that of the Soviets. The US would be in a weaker position without the western European market, and German work ethics are generally better than that in Russia.

In the TNO setting the main concern for the Germans would be Japan and the US working together to topple Germany.

The main goal of the mod should have always been the three way cold war between the US, Japan, and Germany rather than the ideological visual novel it became

Also noticed my phone corrected autarky to autocracy so that sucks

Germany would be hamstrung by having to control its expansive empire, though, which would be mostly devastated by the war and massive ethnic cleansing and therefore not very productive. Japan would also be horribly overstretched and much weaker without American investment, so they wouldn't contribute much. Generally it would be the Americans funneling aid and weapons to partisan movements in the German sphere of influence and trying to turn Italy against them.

 

[Übertroon]

Germany would be hamstrung by having to control its expansive empire, though, which would be mostly devastated by the war and massive ethnic cleansing and therefore not very productive. Japan would also be horribly overstretched and much weaker without American investment, so they wouldn't contribute much. Generally it would be the Americans funneling aid and weapons to partisan movements in the German sphere of influence and trying to turn Italy against them.

It wouldn't be more damaged than the USSR and their east European puppets. There would always be the chance that Germany would immediatly collapse, but realistically I think they would at least do as well as the Soviets if not better. The Germans actually controlled Europe during ww2 fairly well considering what a shitshow it was.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

It wouldn't be more damaged than the USSR and their east European puppets. There would always be the chance that Germany would immediatly collapse, but realistically I think they would at least do as well as the Soviets if not better. The Germans actually controlled Europe during ww2 fairly well considering what a shitshow it was.

Significantly more damaged. The USSR wasn't trying to enslave and destroy a massive chunk of the population of those countries, whereas victorious Germany would have done Generalplan Ost. I don't think it would collapse at once, but the 1960s-1970s seems likely, especially after the loss of Hitler's cult of personality with his death and a possible power struggle.

I wouldn't consider completely losing control of Yugoslavia "well". Controlling everything up to the Urals would have been a colossal feat if it had been attempted.

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

Significantly more damaged. The USSR wasn't trying to enslave and destroy a massive chunk of the population of those countries.

I wouldn't consider completely losing control of Yugoslavia "well". Controlling everything up to the Urals would have been a colossal feat if it had been attempted.

The slavic parts would probably very hard to control but the parts with significant populations that the nazis wouldn't want to genocide like the more germanic and french partss would be easier to control.
this also depends on how much land nazi germany itself would hold, considering the possibility of some of the french territory being given back to vichy franch, and vichy being kept as agerman aligned puppet state.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

The slavic parts would probably very hard to control but the parts with significant populations that the nazis wouldn't want to genocide like the more germanic and french partss would be easier to control.
this also depends on how much land nazi germany itself would hold, considering the possibility of some of the french territory being given back to vichy franch, and vichy being german aligned puppet state.

I was talking about the directly conquered territory of the Reichkomissariats and also the unstable puppet regimes like Greece and Croatia. France would be easier because Petain actually staged a coup to take control in the first place so had some legitimacy among the French far right which would let him rule relatively stably until his death and replacement.

I find the fact that Petain was so senile he soiled himself at his trial amusing.

 

[Übertroon]

Significantly more damaged. The USSR wasn't trying to enslave and destroy a massive chunk of the population of those countries, whereas victorious Germany would have done Generalplan Ost. I don't think it would collapse at once, but the 1960s-1970s seems likely, especially after the loss of Hitler's cult of personality with his death and a possible power struggle.

I wouldn't consider completely losing control of Yugoslavia "well". Controlling everything up to the Urals would have been a colossal feat if it had been attempted.

The USSR actually moved the borders of Eastern Europe hundreds of kilometers west after the war. German government claims 2 million Germans alone perished in the exodus from Prussia.

Also I wouldn't consider Yoguslavia completely lost considering they still had German garrisons when the Germans officially capitulated. It was a shitshow, but one only made possible with the allies controlling air and sea and millions of german troops occupied on the frontlines

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

I was talking about the directly conquered territory of the Reichkomissariats and also the unstable puppet regimes like Greece and Croatia. France would be easier because Petain actually staged a coup to take control in the first place so had some legitimacy among the French far right which would let him rule relatively stably until his death and replacement.

I find the fact that Petain was so senile he soiled himself at his trial amusing.

oh yeah the balkans and mediterranean would be a fucking shit show.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

The USSR actually moved the borders of Eastern Europe hundreds of kilometers west after the war. German government claims 2 million Germans alone perished in the exodus from Prussia.

Also I wouldn't consider Yoguslavia completely lost considering they still had German garrisons when the Germans officially capitulated. It was a shitshow, but one only made possible with the allies controlling air and sea and millions of german troops occupied on the frontlines

In a TNO scenario the Americans would still be aiding the partisan groups in the same way that cold war proxy conflicts happened in reality. The German army would also have demobilised a bit since the war, but would still need to police the territory they held.

Giving a chunk of Germany to Poland is a much smaller scale than Generalplan Ost.

 

[Übertroon]

In a TNO scenario the Americans would still be aiding the partisan groups in the same way that cold war proxy conflicts happened in reality. The German army would also have demobilised a bit since the war, but would still need to police the territory they held.

Giving a chunk of Germany to Poland is a much smaller scale than Generalplan Ost.

US support to partisans would be crippled by a lack of access to the Mediterranean and close airports. It would be as lackluster as US support to anti soviet partisans.

Also it wasn't just german territories given to Poland. The USSR also grabbed chunks from its neighbors. Though I doubt anyone kept count of how many Polish citizens died when half their pre war territory went to the USSR

 

[Pointless Pedant]

US support to partisans would be crippled by a lack of access to the Mediterranean and close airports. It would be as lackluster as US support to anti soviet partisans.

Also it wasn't just german territories given to Poland. The USSR also grabbed chunks from its neighbors. Though I doubt anyone kept count of how many Polish citizens died when half their pre war territory went to the USSR

Remember that the Urals (and possibly the Caucasus) are a massive border that would be almost impossible to control. The TNO Nazi bloc is vastly bigger and more overstretched than the real one ever was. The partisan aid would be coming in through the eastern border of Moskowien (and Japanese assistance could possibly come in here) and possibly Kaukasus through Iran. Also Spain and Italy's loyalty to Germany might be questionable.

The USSR annexed the Baltic states and bit chunks off Finland, Romania, and Poland, but the local populations weren't all expelled.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

I really dislike a lot of things about Kaiserreich, especially the way Germany actually wins WW1 by having their smaller, weaker fleet just magically destroy the British like they failed to do at Jutland. A more realistic Central Powers victory would just have the war bog down into stalemate and reach a negotiated ceasefire where Germany withdraws from France and Belgium but keeps Alsace-Lorraine and their Brest-Litovsk gains in the east, thus becoming the dominant power in Europe. Germany going off to intervene in China while literal communists are amassing over the French border is also retarded. Intervention in France is a much more realistic prospect.

The 2ACW doesn't work as a concept. A revolution during the great depression seems possible, but it would be in the form of unrest and rioting in cities blowing up into open rebellion, not just a bunch of different countries appearing on the map and fighting. Syndicalists (communists) would rise in the midwestern industrial cities more than anywhere else, since Debs' Socialist Party had been big there. I'd compare it to Syria's slide into civil war in 2011-2012, with a phase of asymmetrical warfare before all hell really breaks loose.

I thought with Kaiserreich, Germany wins by not launching into unrestricted submarine warfare. Britain and France revolted afterwards. There could be a political reason for why Germany does not invade France as there was no desire to continue any conflict with them. Though maybe they should have added some kind of Red-White War.

In regards to the 2ACW, you are right that there would be asymmetrical warfare, it is just that HOI4 does not work with asymmetrical warfare. The whole scenario is a fun thought experiment even if it is impractical. A brief aside, it really demonstrates how even today, people are shocked at the possibility of another American Civil War. The Kaiserreich development team is international, but even they want to explore what a Civil War would do to the United States.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

I thought with Kaiserreich, Germany wins by not launching into unrestricted submarine warfare. Britain and France revolted afterwards. There could be a political reason for why Germany does not invade France as there was no desire to continue any conflict with them. Though maybe they should have added some kind of Red-White War.

In regards to the 2ACW, you are right that there would be asymmetrical warfare, it is just that HOI4 does not work with asymmetrical warfare. The whole scenario is a fun thought experiment even if it is impractical. A brief aside, it really demonstrates how even today, people are shocked at the possibility of another American Civil War. The Kaiserreich development team is international, but even they want to explore what a Civil War would do to the United States.

Not resuming unrestricted submarine warfare keeps the Americans out of the war, but they also beat the British navy in a massive fleet battle, which wouldn't have happened. Without American intervention the war would probably have come to a stalemate with neither side able to break through. Communist revolutions could still have happened like they did in Russia, but Germany wouldn't have just magically blown the superior Entente navies away, and if they negotiated a peace treaty that would still be German victory since they would have all their Brest-Litovsk gains to the east.

 

[ConfederateIrishman]

So in recent news today, the TNO devs sanitized their event localizations for Dirlewanger:

Obviously the left was the original one.

When the Devs tried to defend this change in the name of realism and it being inappropriate (it's fucking Dirlewanger )--

--they quickly had to lock the thread because redditors were pissed and saying they were whitewashing Dirlewanger by doing this.

Of course this only caused an even bigger thread to blow up.

 

[HumanHive]

Basically, although the german planned economy would likely be more robust than that of the Soviets. The US would be in a weaker position without the western European market, and German work ethics are generally better than that in Russia.

In the TNO setting the main concern for the Germans would be Japan and the US working together to topple Germany.

The main goal of the mod should have always been the three way cold war between the US, Japan, and Germany rather than the ideological visual novel it became

Also noticed my phone corrected autarky to autocracy so that sucks

Planned economies tend not to work, though. At least not without huge amounts of coddling (see modern China).
The key problem is that while it's all well and good to have production quotas be exceeding year after year, there gets to a point where your product has nowhere to fucking go. This often happened in the Soviet Union, where trains were full of coal and the supply depots at distribution centers had no room left and so the train went right back to the coal mine full despite there being still more coal waiting at the mine for pickup. An incredibly productive economy, but productivity is not a good in and of itself.

If the Nazis had alienated the entire world - US and Italy and Japan - then no matter how much their economy produces all that production generates next to no real profit. It'd take the US or South America to suicidally open the door to a Post-War Nazi Germany, as we did with China, in order for their economy to truly boom.

 

[Kanuckski]

So in recent news today, the TNO devs sanitized their event localizations for Dirlewanger:
View attachment 1771451
Obviously the left was the original one.

When the Devs tried to defend this change in the name of realism and it being inappropriate (it's fucking Dirlewanger )--
View attachment 1771456
--they quickly had to lock the thread because redditors were pissed and saying they were whitewashing Dirlewanger by doing this.
View attachment 1771474
View attachment 1771475

Of course this only caused an even bigger thread to blow up.
View attachment 1771499View attachment 1771498

And here I thought we'd have to wait a good bit before they'd end up doing some stupid shit. I'm curious as to how the community will react to the mod as new stupid ass content and possible changes like this roll out. As well as how the devs and mods will respond, they haven't said anything on Discord addressing discontent with the changes yet. I also doubt they plan to. I get the impression the gameplay will continue to improve. But that the writing will get increasingly memed on and the devs will probably just plug their ears and be upset about it in private.

 

[Übertroon]

Planned economies tend not to work, though. At least not without huge amounts of coddling (see modern China).
The key problem is that while it's all well and good to have production quotas be exceeding year after year, there gets to a point where your product has nowhere to fucking go. This often happened in the Soviet Union, where trains were full of coal and the supply depots at distribution centers had no room left and so the train went right back to the coal mine full despite there being still more coal waiting at the mine for pickup. An incredibly productive economy, but productivity is not a good in and of itself.

If the Nazis had alienated the entire world - US and Italy and Japan - then no matter how much their economy produces all that production generates next to no real profit. It'd take the US or South America to suicidally open the door to a Post-War Nazi Germany, as we did with China, in order for their economy to truly boom.

I agree. Planned economies tend to stagnate and lead to corruption. But I would still argue the Germans would do better than the Soviets. A Europe dominated by a national socialist Germany would control the most educated part of the world, innovation would drive the faction forward, at least for some time.

The Germans also had more experience with running a planned economy. The Soviets having modelled their own economic system on the war socialism of WW1 Germany.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

As someone who plays HOI4 and somewhat knows what goes on within the community, yes everything is true. Sadly, the Speer hoodie is fucking real. TNO's fan base is a special case of a child being dropped on it's head. It comes with every other mod's fan base being full of fags like this to a degree. Full of both sensitive pussies who are either tumblr tier special snowflakes who'll melt at the sight of an offensive term and 14 year old zoomer edge lords at the same time who think saying nigger for the 1,488th time is comedy gold with little or almost none in between this spectrum. On their own, the mods are fun to play but it's the fan base of a mod that'll generally ruin everything. Even if the mod itself is so edgy that it makes Nick Cruz look positively spherical as with the case with the cannibal Anglos. Generally, every fan base is shit but some are shittier than others.

For @Pointless Pedant's post on a fixed TNO scenario book, do it. I'd buy a copy of the book myself as soon as it's published in book stores. Otherwise here's how I'd describe TNO as a mod. Fun mod, awful eye burning UI, dumpster fire fan base, too much fucking edge in the story, good concept executed god awfully by a shitty dev team that constantly in-fights. I mean after all, the political and HOI4 community overlap so expect something this bad.

 

[Übertroon]

As someone who plays HOI4 and somewhat knows what goes on within the community, yes everything is true. Sadly, the Speer hoodie is fucking real. TNO's fan base is a special case of a child being dropped on it's head. It comes with every other mod's fan base being full of fags like this to a degree. Full of both sensitive pussies who are either tumblr tier special snowflakes who'll melt at the sight of an offensive term and 14 year old zoomer edge lords at the same time who think saying nigger for the 1,488th time is comedy gold with little or almost none in between this spectrum. On their own, the mods are fun to play but it's the fan base of a mod that'll generally ruin everything. Even if the mod itself is so edgy that it makes Nick Cruz look positively spherical as with the case with the cannibal Anglos. Generally, every fan base is shit but some are shittier than others.

For @Pointless Pedant's post on a fixed TNO scenario book, do it. I'd buy a copy of the book myself as soon as it's published in book stores. Otherwise here's how I'd describe TNO as a mod. Fun mod, awful eye burning UI, dumpster fire fan base, too much fucking edge in the story, good concept executed god awfully by a shitty dev team that constantly in-fights. I mean after all, the political and HOI4 community overlap so expect something this bad.

Fun and TNO are not words I would put together. HOI4 mods in general seem to be anti fun. The fact that the majority of them remove features such as war justification and ideology boosting is evidence of this. Paradox games were not meant as narrative focused experiences. And too often in HOI4 mods they remove player interaction in exchange for narrative control. As an example, a couple of years ago you could play Kasierreich as Imperial Germany and send troops to aid your colonies if you figured the European theater wasn't going to blow up too soon. A year or so ago that got removed, so now you just sit there and watch as the shitty AI loses because the outcome is pretty much pre determined. In TNO player control was never an option, and they go so far as to remove division recruitment and designer while playing as Germany.