Restorative Justice

[Hellbound Hellhound]

Dont beat around the bush, you know I mean data from sweden divided by demographic groups, and since the 70s since you say crime is going down

I didn't say that crime in Sweden has gone down since the 70s; I actually pointed out earlier in the thread that it has moderately increased since the 90s. If you wish to attribute this rise to recent immigration, fine, but this still fails to address why Sweden's crime rate was so low to begin with; especially with regard to the kind of justice system it has.

I'm not the one who is beating around the bush here. The central argument in this thread is one concerning what kind of justice system is optimal for society, and I have made my argument in that regard. If you have a better idea, please present it.

 

[Cool Dog]

I didn't say that crime in Sweden has gone down since the 70s; I actually pointed out earlier in the thread that it has moderately increased since the 90s. If you wish to attribute this rise to recent immigration, fine, but this still fails to address why Sweden's crime rate was so low to begin with; especially with regard to the kind of justice system it has.

I'm not the one who is beating around the bush here. The central argument in this thread is one concerning what kind of justice system is optimal for society, and I have made my argument in that regard. If you have a better idea, please present it.

Just give me the crime data divided by demo group already, I cant read swede

 

[Pentex]

I've tried to find more nuance to it, but that's pretty much it. Instead of going to police, if somebody steals from you or whatever, you sit down and talk to them about how hurt your feelings are.

I would rather cut off his hand(s).

There are a ton of stories of underaged women being assaulted or raped by men in their church, and instead of going to the police, everyone goes through the church, and the man, woman, their families, and the church leaders all sit around and talk about it and pray about it. Women who have experienced this and left the church have as many fond things to say about this extrajudicial process as you may imagine, which is none.

I doubt the existence of 'tons' of cases just as a doubt the feminist shibboleth that every woman has been raped two dozen times in her life (I exaggerate only slightly and only for emphasis). This is typically the set up for some charge of hypocrisy, but the thing of it is, if everyone else being a tribalist, and siding with outsiders against the tribe is bad, why is it wrong for the Xtians to do the same?

The Jews help their rapists flee to the promised land and the Muslims regard raping kaffir as no big deal.

Also, 'restorative justice' was the brainchild of Albert Eglash, a prison psychologist, as a compliment to restitution. His initial paper didn't argue that criminals should be set loose with a slap-on-the-wrist or after the 'victim' forgave them ('victims' are not drivers of criminal jurisprudence, they are pieces of evidence; crimes are offenses committed against the state, which is why the state is the plaintiff). He stated explicitly that the 'restorative' aspect was the restoration of the offender's empathy and personal responsibility.

 

[Haim Arlosoroff]

Restorative Justice is the latest SJW-ism to come along in the context of reforming the justice system, abolishing the police, eliminating prisons, etc. What is Restorative Justice?

Without coming into any details which would dox me, I've had an offer to undergo this process in regards to a customer of my employer and I's interaction during company time. Obviously, I refused on the grounds that it wasn't at all part of my job to do this and wasn't going to happen during regular office hours or a location where I've normally worked. I was pressured to, mostly by HR, in a tone that this was serious and mandatory but I wanted them to punish me for it since this was a clear case of a customer getting arrested for attacking my car which wasn't a company car & was sitting in the parking lot where I work. The reason for the mediation and the restorative justice was because the head boss knew the guy's parents and didn't want this to go to any court. In the end, because I refused it I ironically got to undergo it with my bosses' bosses' boss covering for some young adult idiot lest I press charges on what already involved an arrest and was photographed by multiple people. I got a nice lump sum bonus on my pay and got the boss to mistakenly sign a sheet of paper explaining what it was for in case anything else came of it.

Never let a judge or a boss push this crap onto you, they're the offending party if they're taking responsibility for preventing an alternative coming true, the criminal offender going to jail or whatever.

Kidding aside, I am increasingly convinced that the people pushing for this kind of bullshit behind the scenes are deliberately trying to collapse civil society. Not to get too conspiracy-minded, but somehow, this reeks of subterfuge. When you dig deep, it's always the same group of NGOs and think tanks pushing this kind of shit.

Its always one hand washing the other. The snake oil salesman, the female voter, the NGOs and think tanks, and the media. The NGOs and think tanks convince the media of an abstract utopian moral injustice (Equity in prison populations) who in turn manufacture the consent of the female voter to fixing the social problem somehow with tax money being spent on pure snake oil by the local snake oil salesman (Diversity and Inclusion Officer) who just showed up with the right accreditation. Only the media & the NGOs are the universal actors operating on a national level, the other two are just local actors.

Its tough to pick who is destroying society alone as the media are just ignorant drug pushers, the NGOs are a secular priesthood who believe their dowsing rod bullshit, the snake oil salesmen are each just trying to pay off their bills and often are fired without even breaking even with the cost of the accreditation process, and the female voter is per usual just doing the best she can. The best the poor dear can.

I would probably cane the media, jail the snake oil salesmen, fine the female voter for making a public nuisance, and publicly torture and execute the NGOs.

 

[Shroom King]

Eric Clanton, the Bike-Lock Bandit, taught a class on Restorative Justice at his college. That should give you an indication on how bullshit it is.

 

[Johan Schmidt]

Restorative justice would only work in a very high trust, high in group preference and small population society. Also known as a cult.

In any reasonably sized society criminality isn't the result of 'muh feelings' or 'muh oppression'. It's because criminals are socially incompetent tossers with no regard for anyone but themselves that reject authority and enjoy exercising petty power over others. Criminals are not victims, they are victimisers.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Restorative justice would only work in a very high trust, high in group preference and small population society. Also known as a cult.

In any reasonably sized society criminality isn't the result of 'muh feelings' or 'muh oppression'. It's because criminals are socially incompetent tossers with no regard for anyone but themselves that reject authority and enjoy exercising petty power over others. Criminals are not victims, they are victimisers.

I think it could work outside of a cult, all misuse besides.

The way restorative justice should work is similar to something like King of the Hill or some old ideal sitcom (as unrealistic as the allegory is).

You smash up your neighbors fence, your father catches you, whips your ass, then makes you restore that fence and more by volunteering every weekend for several weeks. Thats the basic concept, though when you get to things like violent crimes, drug offenses, or sexual crimes- the question really becomes how can you restore things to the way they were before, or can you even do that?

In a lot of cases, you simply can't.

What should happen is that people still try, though in the US, what that usually equates to is a long jail sentence where people are going to probably join a gang and fuck around, maybe some community service, and multiple holes in society.

I'm for restorative justice when it comes to small things. I'm for restorative justice for non-violent and non-sexual crimes. When it comes to violent crimes, if there is a way to restore society to what it was before that can be fair too.

The issue with restorative justice is it becomes conflated with rehabilitation of criminals into society, but completely throwing the victim under the bus. I think rehabilitating criminals is an important enough step, but not at the point that the victim of crimes is simply forgotten about. You wreck my fence? Build it again, and then some. You kill my daughter in a car crash? I don't know if that can ever be restored, but I know that when this happens to people, and they get off light with community service or a shallow sentence because "but theyre a victim too", it makes the situation much worse for the victim.

If there are ways to restore or at least better where people wind up, I'm all down for that; but its probably going to be a case by case issue, and most times, the best thing people can often do is grit their teeth, and bear their full sentence.

 

[Adolphin]

Criminal traits can have a genetic predisposition, or because of some hardwired psychopathic tendency (for example, because of a very nasty childhood). It is pointless to try to reform them. Ideally, most violent murderers are executed.

 

[melty]

I don't know if that can ever be restored, but I know that when this happens to people, and they get off light with community service or a shallow sentence because "but theyre a victim too", it makes the situation much worse for the victim.

Personally, I think for violent crime, Hammurabi was right and the conspiracy theorist in me thinks all the "an eye for the eye makes the whole world blind!" uwu is spread around by the sociopaths who control society so that they can never truly be held accountable.
For smaller crimes, I like the idea of restoring society to the way it was before.

 

[Bonesjones]

Personally, I think for violent crime, Hammurabi was right and the conspiracy theorist in me thinks all the "an eye for the eye makes the whole world blind!" uwu is spread around by the sociopaths who control society so that they can never truly be held accountable.
For smaller crimes, I like the idea of restoring society to the way it was before.

The old Conan the Barbarian movie had it right, the power of people is stronger than that of steel. When people abuse it, the only choice is to chop off their heads. Notice Thulsa Doom didn't usurp King Osrick by attacking him, he just brainwashed his daughter. It's about the most important movie besides They Live.