RPGnet Forums

[Vaclav]

Which is so ironic because as I recall, GEoD is actually a pretty SJW book with Leto II spending long paragraphs going on about why his all female army is superior to any alternative army.

There are things in Dune you can frame in a woke way; you could view Fremen as oppressed POC fighting colonialism, Bene Gesserit and Fish Speakers as badass feminists who don't need no man, maybe there could be a genderqueer take on genetic memory since it means that a person can have memories from people of either sex. But for every woke reading there are a bunch of problematic things: Leto II describes homosexuality as an aberration, the noble oppressed Fremen go on a bloody rampage across the galaxy and the Bene Gesserit are often antagonistic and give rise to the monstrous Honored Matres. Also Duncan Idaho is a male chauvinist shitlord and the depiction of Baron Harkonnen isn't exactly body-positive.

But what makes Dune the worst from a SocJus perspective is the ambiguity and openness to interpretation. What does it mean to be human, to uphold humanity? What actions are justified to serve the greater good? Is the struggle to control one's destiny in vain? You can answer these questions in many ways based on the characters and events in Dune.

Dune is a truly subversive series, first subverting the hero's journey model after the first book and then turning every other narrative convention on its head in the following books. The woke claim to like subverting conventions, but they actually cling harder than anyone to the need for a clearly delineated good and evil. Look how nu-Star Wars bends over backwards to make sure that no one will see the First Order as cool (and then makes Kylo Ren the most interesting character...).

 

[AnOminous]

Leto II describes homosexuality as an aberration

And that's not even counting the fact that the most prominent homosexual is Baron Harkonnen, a profligate degenerate morbidly obese sadistic diseased pedophile who may be the most repulsive villain in science fiction.

 

[Shaka Brah]

And that's not even counting the fact that the most prominent homosexual is Baron Harkonnen, a profligate degenerate morbidly obese sadistic diseased pedophile who may be the most repulsive villain in science fiction.

I've read enough Rat King and horrorcow threads to think that this is probably the most true-to-life part of the story.

 

[Flexo]

There are things in Dune you can frame in a woke way; you could view Fremen as oppressed POC fighting colonialism, Bene Gesserit and Fish Speakers as badass feminists who don't need no man, maybe there could be a genderqueer take on genetic memory since it means that a person can have memories from people of either sex. But for every woke reading there are a bunch of problematic things: Leto II describes homosexuality as an aberration, the noble oppressed Fremen go on a bloody rampage across the galaxy and the Bene Gesserit are often antagonistic and give rise to the monstrous Honored Matres. Also Duncan Idaho is a male chauvinist shitlord and the depiction of Baron Harkonnen isn't exactly body-positive.

But what makes Dune the worst from a SocJus perspective is the ambiguity and openness to interpretation. What does it mean to be human, to uphold humanity? What actions are justified to serve the greater good? Is the struggle to control one's destiny in vain? You can answer these questions in many ways based on the characters and events in Dune.

Dune is a truly subversive series, first subverting the hero's journey model after the first book and then turning every other narrative convention on its head in the following books. The woke claim to like subverting conventions, but they actually cling harder than anyone to the need for a clearly delineated good and evil. Look how nu-Star Wars bends over backwards to make sure that no one will see the First Order as cool (and then makes Kylo Ren the most interesting character...).

Actually IIRC genetic memory was specifically for females, what made Leto II so special is that he was a male who could recall and access his ancestral memories. I don't think Paul could (he could just see the future) but IIRC that was the intent of the program and what made Paul the "false" [word I can't spell] and his son the "true" one.

Paul was a better character anyway, Leto II totally marty stu.

Ok to be somewhat serious, if anything Dune proves the adage true that yesterday's revolutionary is tomorrow's problematic conservative because back when Dune was written, it was at the edge of the acceptable Left thought. Nowadays the overton window has shifted so far, it's left the books in the dust. (Especially if you buy into Thomas Sowell's "conflict of visions" taxonomy where left/right are divided by their visions of humanity.)

Also the first 3 dune books were legitimately good and masterpieces of pure storytelling. Books 4-6 is where I really count the series as going off the rails and becoming manifestos far more than stories. (heh, guess it is a microcosm of scifi in general eh?) I mean book 5 was a bit more return to form (though more porny) but Chapterhouse: Dune just went right back to long chapters of speeches and a climax so badly done it should be studied in creative writing courses as an example of what not to do.

TL;DR - Frank Herbert wasn't an SJW, but they are absolutely his heirs.

 

[Vaclav]

Ok to be somewhat serious, if anything Dune proves the adage true that yesterday's revolutionary is tomorrow's problematic conservative because back when Dune was written, it was at the edge of the acceptable Left thought. Nowadays the overton window has shifted so far, it's left the books in the dust. (Especially if you buy into Thomas Sowell's "conflict of visions" taxonomy where left/right are divided by their visions of humanity.)

What do you think made Dune "left" when it was written? Dune portrays a society with drastically different customs and mores. On the "leftish" side, there are matriarchal organizations like the Bene Gesserit, a lot of independent-minded female characters, the use of drugs to expand consciousness, and the first book can be seen as a story of colonized people rising up against their rulers.

But a lot of other ideas aren't nearly as "left:" monarchy, aristocracy and repressive religious fanaticism are the accepted norm and there's little objection or advocacy for democratic forms of government. In general, Dune focuses on a handful of the galaxy's most elite people and the "common people" are seen as a mindless mass who can only follow the path paved by the elite. I don't recall if egalitarian ideas were even alluded to in Dune, but they certainly weren't implemented. You could say that the Golden Path plan was "egalitarian" in that Leto II intended for people to rebel against his strictures and free themselves from a unipolar organization, but that's not egalitarian in the sense of enforcing equal status for people as most left-wing ideologies advocate.

 

[Loose Goose]

Fuck Ceb, he thinks he owns the fucking forum and is grand high arbiter of all things. He was perma banned for it, appealed, and just kept doing it.

He is a good little snitch who likes to report people. If he could, he would have been ratting out people to the secret police. Luckily, he is just some punk on a lousy message board where he can't do too much damage. Of course, Germany being Germany, he may be reporting the nearby shopkeeper to Die Polizei for using an ethnic slur.

 

[Flexo]

What do you think made Dune "left" when it was written? Dune portrays a society with drastically different customs and mores. On the "leftish" side, there are matriarchal organizations like the Bene Gesserit, a lot of independent-minded female characters, the use of drugs to expand consciousness, and the first book can be seen as a story of colonized people rising up against their rulers.

But a lot of other ideas aren't nearly as "left:" monarchy, aristocracy and repressive religious fanaticism are the accepted norm and there's little objection or advocacy for democratic forms of government. In general, Dune focuses on a handful of the galaxy's most elite people and the "common people" are seen as a mindless mass who can only follow the path paved by the elite. I don't recall if egalitarian ideas were even alluded to in Dune, but they certainly weren't implemented. You could say that the Golden Path plan was "egalitarian" in that Leto II intended for people to rebel against his strictures and free themselves from a unipolar organization, but that's not egalitarian in the sense of enforcing equal status for people as most left-wing ideologies advocate.

First I just want to say how thrilled I am we can demonstrate to RPGnet how to have thoughtful discussions and disagreements.

Second, at the risk of autism ratings, I would point out we're now getting into the point we'd first have to define terms and boundaries. Like I said, I'd rank the first 3 books as pure story, the last 3 books as preachy. Then we would also have to hash out the taxonomy. Are we going by the paradigm view of humanity for the left/right axis? What each side "claims" is their organizing principles? Or what the real world results are of their organizing principles? Or some other measure?

I'll also freely admit it's been a long time since I've read them (and I checked them out of the library at the time - except chapterhouse which I found for free) so I'm not going to be able to provide much in the way of citations until I can dig up the books.

 

[Reverend]

First I just want to say how thrilled I am we can demonstrate to RPGnet how to have thoughtful discussions and disagreements.

Yes this is what makes the farms a wonderful place to have discourse.

Now kindly take anymore Dune discussion to the book threads where it belongs as we have RPG.net to discuss ad nauseum.

 

[Dick Justice]

Is there any way we can bring it back?

1. Practice the art in a place where hipsters don't congregate. Create things that interest people in communities where the rot hasn't touched; believe it or not, there are many of these, but most of them are in small out-of-the-way places where the mainstream geek pop culture doesn't have much reach. Don't expect to get famous; most old-school F/SF writers were obscure. People wanting to be famous and relevant is what led to the current situation.

2. Wait for the hipsters to move on. They can't create anything, only copy, and anything they take over will fall into ruin. People directly opposing them feeds into their gestalt, so ignore them and operate on a completely different wavelength. Once the things they took over aren't cool anymore, you can start picking up the pieces.

See

Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths in subculture evolution https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths - "required reading regarding internet subcultures" Articulates how popularity with casuals (looking at you, plebbit!) almost invariably leads to the death of scenes and subcultures.

 

[Uzumaki]

The "Nail in the Coffin" was certainly the Trump Support Ban. But when did it begin? I don't know. It was kind of a "frogs in the pot" situation.

The nail in the coffin occurred about a decade before Trump ever ran for political office. RPG.net an OG SJW cesspit.

Dune is also an "auto-gatekeeping" franchise because people below a certain intelligence level simply cannot get into it. Getting through the books is a challenge and if someone can discuss God-Emperor of Dune and make interesting points you know that person has a level of dedication to the franchise.

I used to say that about LotR. And Dune is getting a TV adaptation. Enjoy being able to talk about it with people who are mentally adults while it lasts.

 

[MembersSchoolPizza]

The nail in the coffin occurred about a decade before Trump ever ran for political office. RPG.net an OG SJW cesspit.


I used to say that about LotR. And Dune is getting a TV adaptation. Enjoy being able to talk about it with people who are mentally adults while it lasts.

Dune had a TV adaptation already. And a (fairly) mainstream movie. It's managed to hold out so far.

 

[NerdShamer]

"Respect your superiors, philistine!"

 

[Hugbox Kommissar]

Like everyone else on the internet, rpg.net is watching reddit take Wall Street to the cleaners.

Yeah. Here's where rpg.net's old and white demographics show through (the other part is half the thread being a bunch of boomers scratching their heads over what it means to short a stock) with the handwringing over optics and outcomes. This kind of rage against the machine makes them nervous because it isn't Officially Sanctioned and deep down they know they're part of the establishment now.

Have you even been paying attention?

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

"Respect your superiors, philistine!"

I'm wondering what SwordAndSorcery's up to. That little rant seemed a bit less... scattershot than some we've seen. And why they didn't just ban his ass outright -- they've done so for less provocation. Why on earth would they need to discuss it backstage?

 

[Emperor Julian]

"Respect your superiors, philistine!"

SwordAndSorcery touches it with a needle

Your mods are incapable of managing a site where rpg theory gets discussed daily. They cannot comprehend deeper rpg theory and the unique personalities that do the posting.

Brilliant

 

[Pointless Pedant]

Like everyone else on the internet, rpg.net is watching reddit take Wall Street to the cleaners.
View attachment 1878795

View attachment 1878799

Yeah. Here's where rpg.net's old and white demographics show through (the other part is half the thread being a bunch of boomers scratching their heads over what it means to short a stock) with the handwringing over optics and outcomes. This kind of rage against the machine makes them nervous because it isn't Officially Sanctioned and deep down they know they're part of the establishment now.

View attachment 1878822
Have you even been paying attention?

It's incredible how out of touch these people are. Reddit right wing and a hive of QAnon? Either they literally have it confused with 4chan (or this site, for that matter, which has an awful lot of far right people for a site for laughing at Chris Chan) or they have never even glanced at the front page for the typical daily ranting at Republicans and bootlicking of Democrats. /r/wallstreetbets was upvoting tweets by AOC. Reddit is one of the most left wing places on the whole internet, along with Imgur. Probably even more so than Twitter.

It reminds me of when I saw a thread on Christchurch on one of these crusty old forums (something like Reset ERA or metalarchives, both run by the same old cat lady) and literally everyone there was a gun grabber. Even on Reddit, which is way left of general society, you'd get some kind of push back, even if it's some left wing group like /r/liberalgunowners.

 

[mr.moon1488]

Like everyone else on the internet, rpg.net is watching reddit take Wall Street to the cleaners.
View attachment 1878795

View attachment 1878799

Yeah. Here's where rpg.net's old and white demographics show through (the other part is half the thread being a bunch of boomers scratching their heads over what it means to short a stock) with the handwringing over optics and outcomes. This kind of rage against the machine makes them nervous because it isn't Officially Sanctioned and deep down they know they're part of the establishment now.

View attachment 1878822
Have you even been paying attention?

I would really like to see what would happen if these fags ever did something to incite a /pol/ raid.

 

[NerdShamer]

I'm wondering what SwordAndSorcery's up to. That little rant seemed a bit less... scattershot than some we've seen. And why they didn't just ban his ass outright -- they've done so for less provocation. Why on earth would they need to discuss it backstage?

I think it has something to do with this.

 

[Shaka Brah]

I think it has something to do with this.

He's hitting them in a sore spot and it's very interesting to see them recoil at his criticism. Any other person would have been permabanned by now, but he's accusing them of not being ideologically pure enough to run a left-wing gaming forum and that's a strong jab.

 

[From The Uncanny Valley]

I would really like to see what would happen if these fags ever did something to incite a /pol/ raid.

4chan vs Tumblr Act II