SCP Foundation - Creepypasta with roid rage - now ITT: SCP fans

Sure, they should have drafted the rules better. But, assuming both parties show up and do at least the bare minimum effort, 99% of courts are going to find that Harmony was even more aware of the website's written (and even unwritten) policies than other users, and even actively participated in administering said rules. What you would want here, for a slam-dunk, is some policy that explicitly states that anyone can decide to rescind their publications.

This isn't some fly-by-night scam where they tricked Harmony into hastily publishing on their website and went "GOTCHA NOW!" It is extremely clear that Harmony was giving them permission to publish her writing, and absent some other agreement, there's no reason at all to suspect a court is going to censor a publication based on rescinded consent YEARS LATER because they trooned out and threw a shit-fit.

Even if it's "the right thing to do" by some other ethics.

Oh yeah. And I play "Blue Eyes Not A Lawyer" face-down in defense mode. Your move, internet.
It doesn't matter if he was "aware" of the licensing circumstances if license wasn't applied correctly in the first place not to mention there was an AGREEMENT BEFOREHAND that they would delete his works upon request, which is even more damning
 
Sure, they should have drafted the rules better. But, assuming both parties show up and do at least the bare minimum effort, 99% of courts are going to find that Harmony was even more aware of the website's written (and even unwritten) policies than other users, and even actively participated in administering said rules. What you would want here, for a slam-dunk, is some policy that explicitly states that anyone can decide to rescind their publications.
Now you're talking about shit implied by the behavior of the parties, not an actual contract. And the behavior of the parties up until now indicates that people who wanted their works rescinded had the right to do it. And that's a fact question, too. If you could actually just point to a contract you get a slam-dunk. Once you're arguing that an unsigned implied agreement with no written form, signed by none of the parties, without even a click, is somehow a binding contract, you're not in a great position.

If Harmony's actually interested in looking into such a thing, the proper person to talk to is an IP lawyer. This thing looks very fact-dependent to me and someone with specific experience in clickthroughs, contracts and copyright is who is needed. It would probably not be a great idea to go into any more factual details.

Harmony may be satisfied with simply embarrassing these hypocritical gimps with their own shitty behavior. This is an incompetent operation run by irresponsible assholes who can't explain where tens of thousands of donations went and have no intelligible policies on how they treat their contributors, although in general "like utter shit" appears to be an accurate description.
 
there was an AGREEMENT BEFOREHAND that they would delete his works upon request, which is even more damning
OwO What's this? I'm new in this thread, so I must have missed that part. Y-yeah, that might be actionable (if still prohibitively expensive.) Could you offer me a post-link in these trying times?
 
OwO What's this? I'm new in this thread, so I must have missed that part. Y-yeah, that might be actionable (if still prohibitively expensive.) Could you offer me a post-link in these trying times?
20210228_223040.jpg
This isn't some legal mumbo-jumbo, this is written by staff themselves outside of the licensing agreement. This is definitely actionable.
 
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This isn't some legal mumbo-jumbo, this is written by staff themselves outside of the licensing agreement. This is definitely actionable.
Yep. That would seem pretty simple and conclusive. So they're not just shitty woke nepotists, but they also break their own rules.

Well thread, you've convinced me. I love the lawsuit now!

Does PixelatedRegrets have enough internet famous points to kickfundme a WARCHEST?
 
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This isn't some legal mumbo-jumbo, this is written by staff themselves outside of the licensing agreement. This is definitely actionable.
This is hypocritical beyond belief, but it's still extrinsic to the actual contract, and such a thing doesn't always itself constitute a contract. For a contract to be binding, it has to involve consideration by all parties, meaning that they exchange something of value in return for something of value. Sometimes something like an employee manual can be considered a binding contract, since it is part of the general employment agreement, and you'd have to show that participating in the project is something valuable to the actual project. The fact they're agonizing about whether to delete it or not when requested does seem to indicate they think what they got is of actual value, but we're arguing about facts now.

I'd say there's a really good argument while it might not be an actual contract, when they actually accept submissions, and develop them, and they were submitted on the understanding that this rule applied, they should be bound by that. I'm not sure they are, though. For instance, it flat out contradicts the terms of the CC-BY-SA 3.0, which says the agreement can't be revoked. But hey maybe that doesn't even apply.

They're honestly lucky if they never get nailed for this. This is an incredibly shoddy way to run a site, with two "agreements" that contradict each other, and which you don't even have to agree to in the first place. This is just a mess.
 
View attachment 1959412
This isn't some legal mumbo-jumbo, this is written by staff themselves outside of the licensing agreement. This is definitely actionable.
That only pertains to an author deleting their own works via Wikidot's page deletion process, and says nothing about staff doing anything on the author's request. The more relevant piece of writing is this, from the staff deletions guide on O5 Command:
Capture 98.PNG

This is, however, still just a courtesy staff have decided to extend to authors, and isn't legally binding. No agreement or contract was signed here.
 
This is, however, still just a courtesy staff have decided to extend to authors, and isn't legally binding. No agreement or contract was signed here.
It could be argued that it's a right entitled to members, and that by going through the application process, this right is awarded to members. Sounds contractual to me.
 
It could be argued that it's a right entitled to members, and that by going through the application process, this right is awarded to members. Sounds contractual to me.
It looks to be more of a guideline than a set-in-stone rule. Were this particular text to be used as evidence, the defense would probably argue that the usage of the word "guide" rather than "rules" is a deliberate way of indicating that these guidelines can be violated when it is deemed appropriate.
 
It looks to be more of a guideline than a set-in-stone rule. Were this particular text to be used as evidence, the defense would probably argue that the usage of the word "guide" rather than "rules" is a deliberate way of indicating that these guidelines can be violated when it is deemed appropriate.
The problem, of course, is that they apparently have complied with every deletion request until now, which doesn't bode well for them if they want to claim its a courtesy action and not policy.
 
Now you're talking about shit implied by the behavior of the parties, not an actual contract.
Once you're arguing that an unsigned implied agreement with no written form, signed by none of the parties, without even a click, is somehow a binding contract, you're not in a great position.
For a contract to be binding, it has to involve consideration by all parties,

Since we are getting real in the legal weeds here, I thought I’d tell a story around this here digital campfire that muddies SCP’s legal origins even more.

As everyone is well aware by now, this all started with one dude posting on /x/. A bunch of people copied him and wrote derivatives. They compiled them off 4chan on a few places; EditThis, some other host, and finally WikiDot. EditThis’ TOS explicitly said to not post what isn’t your own work (I can find this again, I know I saw it one day when digging). They stole IP and broke the TOS’s of both EditThis and WikiDot when they the derivatives on them. Both would have deleted the project, had they known.

SCP started as IP protected by general rules of internetdom (forum posts are protected copyright unless stated otherwise iirc), was only slightly infringed upon (no one was seriously going to reeeee at 4chans mimicking the style in /x/), it was officially stolen by EditThis and illegally ported, and by the time it got to WikiDot, it was CC.

Within days of the scp wiki being created, that original author, under the name Moto42, stopped in. He was floored by the project and clearly hadn’t known all the derivatives had been created. On the site forum, he posted “oh hey cool. my one about the drink dispenser is my favorite”. Then he disappeared for 5 years.

In that time, SCP lore and “canon” solidified into what we know it as. The name “The Foundation”, the object classes, etc. Moto42 came back in 2013, around the time the SCP-2000 contest was announced, and commented on his ported SCP-173 to explicitly release the work as CC-BY-SA 3.0 (my guess is at the request of staff, to head off any legal pickle), thus instantly making all subsequent derivatives that too. This coincided with the dawning of staff’s (belated) understanding of the license they had unwittingly wed themselves to. Staff sighed collectively and celebrated this as a weight lifted from their shoulders. Because things developed before that in those 5 years was a a very grey area in the eyes of the law.

So happily ever after right? Nah.

Nearly everything that comes to mind when you think of "The SCP Foundation" was developed by the community on wikidot. But “Special Containment Procedures” and the article format came before the transition to Wikidot and the BY-SA license. When pressed on this, the licensing team cites “implied intent” to cover their legal tracks during that time; a real nebulous and undeveloped legal concept. They say that since Moto42 came by those first days after the wiki, and didn’t have a fit over the obvious IP copyright infringement, that that meant their CC BY-SA 3.0 usage was implied through behavior as ok.

But we’ve seen it demonstrated that the SCP staff themselves didn’t understand what the license meant as late as 2012. So how could Moto42 have in 2008? They thought they were going to make an LLC or a mainstream movie off it. They talked about becoming incorporated. It’s likely they would have cut Moto in on any enterprise or entrepreneurship, if he asked (or demanded). So how could he have been implicitly intending the CC BY-SA 3.0?

Everyone’s pointing out of no acknowledgement when signing up for the site supports this too. It’s clear from the link I shared that WikiDot’s own admins were unsure of a content license in 2010, 2 years after Moto first came by.


He probably made it CC BY-SA because this huge project had sprung up, the CC license was the boat staff realized they were stuck in, and they asked him to play ball; he did because he was nice and was happy enough with what he inspired. Who’s to say Moto wouldn’t have originally wanted to make a fortune had he known what it would become? By that point, he could almost only pursue that if he destroyed the project.

Things like “The Foundation” and the logo are undeniably CC BY-SA 3.0 bc they originated on the wiki; but SCP-173 doesn’t ever mention the foundation. It does mention “SCP”. So each and every SCP article is a legal derivative.

The question is if the derivatives produced between 2008 and 2013 are necessarily subject to CC BY-SA 3.0, as legally speaking that license was imposed on them mid-flight. The SCP licensing experts would tell you this is “strongly established” and “fully under control” by implied intent, but that is a defense mechanism for some real shaky ground. Implied licenses are a very deep grey. There is little in the legal literature to suggest it is certain to apply here; it is entirely far from strong.

Given that a Harmony article might not mention “The Foundation”, and only stick to the bare bones elements — i.e. the SCP format — she might have a legal chance of making them a more strict CC license that does not allow derivation, and so no rewrites for SCP (or RPC). SCP would have to take them down. This also might give the international communities — like Russian branch, which was established before 2013 — a justification for posting under an alternative license. But that’s another story for another day.

ADD: The application of “implied intent” also might relate to Harmony’s expectation of being able to take down her articles if she requested it.

EDIT: This is not legal advice.
 
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Since we are getting real in the legal weeds here, I thought I’d tell a story around this here digital campfire that muddies SCP’s legal origins even more.

As everyone is well aware by now, this all started with one dude posting on /x/. A bunch of people copied him and wrote derivatives. They compiled them off 4chan on a few places; EditThis, some other host, and finally WikiDot. EditThis’ TOS explicitly said to not post what isn’t your own work (I can find this again, I know I saw it one day when digging). They stole IP and broke the TOS’s of both EditThis and WikiDot when they the derivatives on them. Both would have deleted the project, had they known.

SCP started as IP protected by general rules of internetdom (forum posts are protected copyright unless stated otherwise iirc), was only slightly infringed upon (no one was seriously going to reeeee at 4chans mimicking the style in /x/), it was officially stolen by EditThis and illegally ported, and by the time it got to WikiDot, it was CC.

Within days of the scp wiki being created, that original author, under the name Moto42, stopped in. He was floored by the project and clearly hadn’t known all the derivatives had been created. On the site forum, he posted “oh hey cool. my one about the drink dispenser is my favorite”. Then he disappeared for 5 years.

In that time, SCP lore and “canon” solidified into what we know it as. The name “The Foundation”, the object classes, etc. Moto42 came back in 2013, around the time the 2000 contest was announced, and commented on his ported SCP-173 to explicitly release the work as CC-BY-SA 3.0 (my guess is at the request of staff, to head off any legal pickle), thus instantly making all subsequent derivatives that too. This coincided with the dawning of staff’s (belated) understanding of the license they had unwittingly wed themselves to. Staff sighed collectively and celebrated this as a weight lifted from their shoulders. Because things developed before that in those 5 years was a a very grey area in the eyes of the law.

So happily ever after right? Nah.

Nearly everything that comes to mind when you think of "The SCP Foundation" was developed by the community on wikidot. But “Special Containment Procedures” and the article format came before the transition to Wikidot and the BY-SA license. When pressed on this, the licensing team cites “implied intent” to cover their legal tracks during that time; a real nebulous and undeveloped legal concept. They say that since Moto42 came by those first days after the wiki, and didn’t have a fit over the obvious IP copyright infringement, that that meant their CC BY-SA 3.0 usage was implied through behavior as ok.

But we’ve seen it demonstrated that the SCP staff themselves didn’t understand what the license meant as late as 2012. So how could Moto42 have? They thought they were going to make an LLC or a mainstream movie off it. They talked about becoming incorporated. It’s likely they would have cut Moto in on any enterprise or entrepreneurship, if he asked (or demanded). So how could he have been implicitly intending the CC BY-SA 3.0?

Everyone’s pointing out of no acknowledgement when signing up for the site supports this too. It’s clear from the link I shared that WikiDot’s own admins were unsure of a content license in 2010, 2 years after Moto first came by.


He probably made it CC BY-SA because this huge project had sprung up, the CC license was the boat staff realized they were stuck in, and they asked him to play ball; he did because he was nice and was happy enough with what he inspired. Who’s to say Moto wouldn’t have originally wanted to make a fortune had he known what it would become? By that point, he could almost only pursue that if he destroyed the project.

Things like “The Foundation” and the logo are undeniably CC BY-SA 3.0 bc they originated on the wiki; but SCP-173 doesn’t ever mention the foundation. It does mention “SCP”. So each and every SCP article is a legal derivative.

The question is if the derivatives produced between 2008 and 2013 are necessarily subject to CC BY-SA 3.0, as legally speaking that license was imposed on them mid-flight. The SCP licensing experts would tell you this is “strongly established” and “fully under control” by implied intent, but that is a defense mechanism for some real shaky ground. Implied licenses are a very deep grey. There is little in the legal literature to suggest it is certain to apply here; it is entirely far from strong.

Given that a Harmony article might not mention “The Foundation”, and only stick to the bare bones elements — i.e. the SCP format — she might have a legal chance of making them a more strict CC license that does not allow derivation, and so no rewrites for SCP (or RPC). SCP would have to take them down. This also might give the international communities — like Russian branch, which was established before 2013 — a justification for posting under an alternative license. But that’s another story for another day.

ADD: The application of “implied intent” also might relate to Harmony’s expectation of being able to take down her articles if she requested it.
I doubt this'll ever be resolved. Moto doesn't seem to give a shit.
 
Sorry to double-post. This already happened. But on that note, Audrey Duksin, the entrepreneur, sold the rights of those badass illustrations in August 2020 to these guys. They opened an IndieGoGo in December to raise funds for the English versions of the books (originally in Russian). It’s raised $1,571,138 since December 2020. The set of 3 books is $160.

Based on those numbers, Duskin probably made off like a bandit.
That's what I don't get with the whole copyleft stuff. They sold the rights to illustrations. But aren't derivative works also covered by the license? So wouldn't the illustrations also be free to use for anyone that wanted to do anything with them? And if not what is actually covered? The whole permissive license/public domain stuff seems like a minefield to me.
 
Among other news...
Yeah, this is Kaktus blackmailing SCP-FR staff over some dumb thread on the amogus SCP.


View attachment 1960230

And a pair of archive screencaps just in case

The Twitter replies are based.

You don't nedd a shiny sheriff star to degrade the wiki, as you frequently prove

Edit: Hold on, look at Modulum (SCPD bigboy mod)'s new name: https://twitter.com/modulum83

Hmm... That's strange. Almost like they see this thread or something.

Edit II: https://twitter.com/Thafnine/status/1366237675628490754 based thafnine
 
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That's what I don't get with the whole copyleft stuff. They sold the rights to illustrations. But aren't derivative works also covered by the license? So wouldn't the illustrations also be free to use for anyone that wanted to do anything with them? And if not what is actually covered? The whole permissive license/public domain stuff seems like a minefield to me.
Yeah it is a minefield. Anyone using an adaptation doesn't have any rights to distribution. The illustrations are definitely adaptations, and definitely are CC BY-SA 3.0. The new publisher admits as much in response to that very question. So it seems like they would know that they wouldn't have had to buy them. Maybe they did it to avoid a legal battle, maybe Duskin swindled them, maybe Russian copyright is really just that gorked.

Among other news...
Yeah, this is Kaktus blackmailing SCP-FR staff over some dumb thread on the amogus SCP.


View attachment 1960230

And a pair of archive screencaps just in case

lol this dumbass kaktus. Just can’t think beyond the first dimension. Go -FR, don’t let up or give in. He would have brushed it off if it was nothing. He’s advertising how bothered he is by calling attention over this, that it is spilling into his domain now. He isn’t trying to stiff arm you into a deal because you are wrong; he’s telling everyone that you are on to something.

As for the among us article, I don't think it is the sign that the wiki's quality is in an extinction vortex. I think this is. When a well-done but straight up monster-that-just-needs-a-hug trope is going to be one of the site's top in short order, you know something in the voting demographic is termimal. And I'm not player hating, that's one of my favorite authors there and more power to him. But that one? The sus article, like the Harmony-682 tale, is just your run-of-the-mill, barrel-bottom curettage now.
 
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