Security Camera / Security System Thread - Wired or wireless? That is the question.

[Jotch]

Any suggestions for a NVR program that works well on linux without Internet access?

 

[Dr. Eldon Tyrell]

Are analog HD-ish cams a thing? I swear I've read there's more-than-480-lines equipment like that a while back when I was into drones. I'm contemplating just doing old school coax analog to a central pc with all the object detection shenanigans.
edit: https://www.camius.com/cvbs-ahd-hd-tvi-hd-cvi-analog-camera-connection/
Hm I guess straight to LAN spares the expense of capure boxes/cards... but the stuff is avaiable on chink sites.

 

[lil sleepy]

Are analog HD-ish cams a thing? I swear I've read there's more-than-480-lines equipment like that a while back when I was into drones. I'm contemplating just doing old school coax analog to a central pc with all the object detection shenanigans.
edit: https://www.camius.com/cvbs-ahd-hd-tvi-hd-cvi-analog-camera-connection/
Hm I guess straight to LAN spares the expense of capure boxes/cards... but the stuff is avaiable on chink sites.

Better resolution tends to translate to better detection and I've not had a coax camera give me a feed worth analyzing for object dectection after a few years of being deployed outside. A lot of the modern cameras are built to go to cat cables, and I strongly recommend against media conversion unless you have no other option. Are you just trying to use what you have on hand?

 

[Dr. Eldon Tyrell]

Better resolution tends to translate to better detection and I've not had a coax camera give me a feed worth analyzing for object dectection after a few years of being deployed outside. A lot of the modern cameras are built to go to cat cables, and I strongly recommend against media conversion unless you have no other option. Are you just trying to use what you have on hand?

Yeah i had several rings of coax lying around and wanted to cheap out on cabling that way but I'm already bummed out by the small 4 camera usb capture boxes anyway (probably no proper driver support on linux anyway). But these recorders are cheap a.f. but probably also unbelievably shit. I guess I will do the normal thing everybody does. RJ45 and cat 6 it is. I've even seen some expensive cams with sony HD SDI by now... guess there are way more legacy cctv setups in the wild which are getting cheap easy upgrades this way than I expected.

 

[Starre & Ruine]

Security systems should be wired. This includes alarm and video systems.

TL;DR

Wireless in technical security systems opens an attack surface that is not fully apprehended by normines, but is well understood by criminals and security engineering.

This attack surface is easily exploitable by criminals and security engineers.

Wireless is easy and cheaper to install vs wired systems.

Wired systems are easier to troubleshoot (reducing ambiguity to find Root Cause). Chase your tail all you want. Or just replace a perfectly good camera in a shitty RF environment.

There is no such thing as ‘secure wireless.’ There is a such thing as an evolving ecosystem of wireless attacks.

Wireless cameras are a residential choice for DIY installs since it’s easy to do. Installing the cable for any security systems is a labor sink and adds a lot to cost (cable and labor to install). It can be a difficult job in existing construction and often just overwhelms the owner in favor of wireless, where the hardware just goes up and camera service is now available. There is often a lot of drilling in hot, cramped spaces and risk of cosmetic damage to the existing construction/finish. It’s a trade-off between easy to do and having security.

I mean, do you really want ‘the help’ opening holes in your new home, or 500K+ older home for a few days? Just to run cable? Nah.

Wireless systems invite another paradigm into troubleshooting. Radio Frequency (RF). With cable, the link between camera and NVR/DVR is a hardwired connection. This link can be visually inspected, or tested with simple tools and simpler testing methodologies than wireless. With a wireless system, the RF environment comes into play, which requires some knowledge of RF theory and the RF environment. Wired systems are higher on the engineering hierarchy of reliability, in terms of “why isn’t my camera working.(Root Cause Analysis or RCA)’and simplicity of troubleshooting.

Normies want it cheap an easy,

If a wireless cam is using an 802.11x protocol, then all of the wireless attack tools can be used to attack that system. All of those wireless tools are readily available on Kali Linux, for the curious malefactor. If your using analog wireless, well, anybody can use your surveillance cameras to surveill you.

Interference. I’ve observed 802.11x systems suddenly become unavailable, Is this interference, because the ISM band is really shitted up with consumer wireless devices and every protocol imaginable or is it an attack (jamming)?

How does a service technician or DIY’er determine if it’s interference? Spectrum analyzer? Never saw a truck with a spectrum analyzer on board or the personnel that could understand this. Never. If a wireless cam goes down, then it’s likely to be replaced since determining the RF part is out of most peoples ability to troubleshoot, even though the cam is fully functional. If it is intereference, then how do you correct that since it’s out of your control?

If it were cable, then troubleshooting is easier to determine the Root Cause. Plus, if those wired cams need replaced in the future, just plug and play. Dunno about different manufacturers wireless cams running on a different manufactures WAP/base stations.

Is it the video camera itself, the WAP, the video camera wireless board? RF environment. Dunno? Wired systems do not have this problem.

Some criminal gangs recently, in the USA, used signal jammers block wireless devices and it’s likely that other criminal gangs will adopt this as well towards increasing sophistication. Residential attacks using jammers are well known in South Africa. Wireless security systems are the normies choice for security theatre.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

Security systems should be wired. This includes alarm and video systems.

Everything in this post is correct, but people who live in apartments do not have the option of running cable. And "just buy a house, bro" isn't a realistic solution in the current real estate market/general economy.

 

[Rock Eater]

Everything in this post is correct, but people who live in apartments do not have the option of running cable. And "just buy a house, bro" isn't a realistic solution in the current real estate market/general economy.

Not entirely, you can use command strips to run cables along your walls and then just place cameras at your windows.
This is what I’m doing currently

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

Not entirely, you can use command strips to run cables along your walls and then just place cameras at your windows.
This is what I’m doing currently

I mean, doing an INDOOR wired camera isn't that hard even in an apartment. But doing a front door camera, which is what most people would want, is basically impossible. Official policy is that we're not supposed to have ANY kind of hallway camera, although my landlord is a cool dude and said he'd look the other way for a wireless. But if I drilled a hole in the external wall for ethernet I'm pretty sure he'd leave an upper decker in my toilet.

 

[Rock Eater]

I mean, doing an INDOOR wired camera isn't that hard even in an apartment. But doing a front door camera, which is what most people would want, is basically impossible. Official policy is that we're not supposed to have ANY kind of hallway camera, although my landlord is a cool dude and said he'd look the other way for a wireless. But if I drilled a hole in the external wall for ethernet I'm pretty sure he'd leave an upper decker in my toilet.

Wonder if you could somehow use a flat ethernet cable between your door

 

[Core1036]

If you are running a home video security system either go one of two routes:

Coaxial:
You buy a somewhat expensive DVR and place it in a secure location (such as in a safe bolted in a crawlspace) with a battery backup, a power supply and run drops to every place you want a camera (every drop is a coax+ground+12v) and you purchase the cameras relatively cheaply. They have next to no intelligence of their own, unless they are PTZ (some are controlled over RS485 while others pass control over the coax, they are sometimes called Digilog)
Those systems are fairly idiot proof, the only thing that needs configuration is the DVR itself.
A word of caution: cameras that are powered by 24V have a much hotter output on the coax and can cause cheap chink DVRs to die. Bosch and Pelco are known offenders. Don't make my mistake.

IP:
You get a second hand PoE switch, some cameras and a dedicated NVR box or PC with video software on it. You have to set up every single camera and the NVR, some software has Auto-set but that's rare and less likely to work than you winning the Powerball jackpot. A good practice is to get a machine with two ethernet cards, one plugs into the switch with the cameras, the other connects to the rest of your network, that way the cameras cannot be touched from the internet and your driveway will not end up on Shodan or the likes. In terms of software either trust totally not fedded Synology, the Chinese (SmartPSS (Dahua) or IVMS-4200 (Hikvision)) or go with FOSS stuff like Frigate, Shinobi or bake something yourself with FFmpeg.

And for the love of god, please do not purchase cloud cameras. I have a system with a good few Bosch IP cameras and a VMS that has run reliably so far. The main complaint with IP is the framerates on live view can be a bit and the delay (encoding, transmission, re-encoding, transmission, decoding) can get annoying with PTZ. Coax systems don't have that issue.

 

[reptile baht spaniard rid]

A real cheap source of some decent cameras is the trailcam section of your local big box store.

By default they’re camouflaged and setup to only record activity/motion, have night vision and shit, and can be concealed outdoors. Consider them as a secondary backup system but be aware that any camera with “night vision” is likely sending out IR and easily visible if you know what to look for.

Always have some old shitty wireless router connected to nothing at all broadcasting an SSID like “Cameras” that is not on a UPS or anything. Dedicated thieves will think they got you when they pull power and that SSID goes offline.

 

[Core1036]

But doing a front door camera, which is what most people would want, is basically impossible.

Thanks to china, if you have a peephole, you can replace it with a video one and have a hall camera, some even come with a microphone. (image attached, you can find those on AliExpress or whatever you use with "CVBS video peephole")
There are over the door cameras as well but at the same time most of them are cloud connected trash.
View attachment Analog-CVBS-1000TVL-170-degree-Wide-View-CCD-Wired-Door-Eye-Hole-Peephole-Color-Video-Camera.webp

likely sending out IR and easily visible if you know what to look for.

I went on the internet, some trailcams actually have color nightvision now and an option to disable IR, pretty much the variety the feds (especially game wardens) love to use to convict poachers.

 

[lil sleepy]

Be careful how you connect chink IP devices to your network, cheapest options are that way for a reason.

Anyone also do access control systems? Specifically has anyone used facial recognition for 2FA? The tech for it is pretty 'spensive and the actual use cases are rare, but I wanna live in the future

 

[Rock Eater]

I mean, doing an INDOOR wired camera isn't that hard even in an apartment. But doing a front door camera, which is what most people would want, is basically impossible. Official policy is that we're not supposed to have ANY kind of hallway camera, although my landlord is a cool dude and said he'd look the other way for a wireless. But if I drilled a hole in the external wall for ethernet I'm pretty sure he'd leave an upper decker in my toilet.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

I'm revisting this topic because I have a family member who is DEMANDING a door camera of some kind for their apartment.

The above is just a mount. It doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

Battery powered cameras DO NOT WORK. Every single piece of information I've found confirms this. You CANNOT use a battery powered camera with any local NVR software (Zoneminder, Frigate, Shinobi). The reason is that the NVRs expected a continuous stream of data (RTSP, ONVIF), and the batteries can't handle it.

So my question is, how the fuck do Ring cameras and such do it? I understand that they preserve battery power by only transmitting on motion, but... how? Why can no NVR figure out how to ingest that data? Are all these cameras using their own bullshit proprietary protocols to cheat somehow? Why is it so fucking hard to get a battery powered camera without selling my soul to FAGMAN?

 

[DavidS877]

I'm revisting this topic because I have a family member who is DEMANDING a door camera of some kind for their apartment.

The above is just a mount. It doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

Battery powered cameras DO NOT WORK. Every single piece of information I've found confirms this. You CANNOT use a battery powered camera with any local NVR software (Zoneminder, Frigate, Shinobi). The reason is that the NVRs expected a continuous stream of data (RTSP, ONVIF), and the batteries can't handle it.

So my question is, how the fuck do Ring cameras and such do it? I understand that they preserve battery power by only transmitting on motion, but... how? Why can no NVR figure out how to ingest that data? Are all these cameras using their own bullshit proprietary protocols to cheat somehow? Why is it so fucking hard to get a battery powered camera without selling my soul to FAGMAN?

Typically the Ring style cameras either transmit directly to the cloud, or to a small local device which sends it to the cloud.

There is software to deal with the battery-only reolinks. Not sure how well it works.

https://github.com/QuantumEntangledAndy/neolink

I think you can also use a Reolink NVR locally with their battery cameras, not sure what protocol you can get data off it with.

As usual the best option is a drill bit and a wire.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

As usual the best option is a drill bit and a wire.

Which would be trivial if it wasn't a fucking apartment.

I'll check these out.

EDIT: Let me rephrase. What eldritch rites of child sacrifice are going on in (((The Cloud))) that allow it to process intermittent streams based on motion detection when no local NVR on the planet can figure it out? It can't possibly be that complex. Are open source NVRs just retarded?

 

[DavidS877]

Which would be trivial if it wasn't a fucking apartment.

I stuck an outdoor WiFi camera outside once by running the power over small thin wires that I tucked into the corner of the door frame. They probably make something official now. Depending on the weather stripping might be able to get one of the flat Cat5 to work too.

 

[beholdachair]

neolink - Not sure how well it works.

It works. It can turn a battery camera into a livestreaming camera, if you have the power supply to keep the camera operational. It also supports MQTT.

I would never recommand anyone use feed through connectors

Indulge me. I have used the kind of connectors you recommended. Then someone was working with Cat6. It had an internal '+' dividing the pairs. I thought the passthrough style was designed to help make terminations on that kind of cable.
And, what about packing the neck with silicon grease after insertion?

Yeah i had several rings of coax lying around

There are older-style cameras that use coax instead of Cat5/6. The cameras are digital, as are the NVR's, but they're not considered 'IP Cams'. There's NOS HikVision NVR equipment for $50, here and there, and $30 for the cams. The NVR also works with several of the IP Cams. Reolink has their RLC-510A and 520A on sale from time to time for ~$35 NOS. The 'A' has the better firmware, and the vehicle/people/pet detection. The cameras have their own Micro-SD slot for recording; the NVR gives you a composed display option with dual HDMI output, plus separate recording.

Wireless in technical security systems opens an attack surface

Look at what the 19% non-human DNA Bantu do. They get approval from their version of a shaman, then use a signal jammer.

Always have some old shitty wireless router broadcasting "Cameras"

Nice.

 

[Sam Losco]

Indulge me. I have used the kind of connectors you recommended. Then someone was working with Cat6. It had an internal '+' dividing the pairs. I thought the passthrough style was designed to help make terminations on that kind of cable.
And, what about packing the neck with silicon grease after insertion?

If you're using a Cat6 connector it shouldn't be a problem. They have staggered spots for the wire since it's slightly larger gauge and the neck is wider for that plastic divider. That divider is annoying but with a cat6 connector, it's not a big deal. I just make sure that I cut it down as close to flush with the jacket as I can. You can't have it in the way when the wires have to get more inline to slide into the slots in the connector.
Silicon grease in the neck doesn't do anything for the exposed wire on the end and that's where the problem is, especially if the blade on the crimpers doesn't cut them for shit.
The majority of connectors I've seen burned up have been passthrough (PoE cameras). Simplest fix for that is just not use those.