Shitty Alternate History Thread - If only the Romans had AK-47's they would've survived...

  • 🔧 At about Midnight EST I am going to completely fuck up the site trying to fix something.
I think it's interesting that Thorstein Veblen had his own heterodox branch of economics around the same time as Marx, but his work mostly ended up being absorbed into orthodoxy, but generally overlooked (nobody really cares much about positional advantage in consumption goods).

I've thought before about the idea of a scenario where Veblen went much further with his conspicuous consumption and leisure ideas and started a major world movement for a sort of secular asceticism (egalitarianism by drawing down consumption to a lower level instead of raising it to a higher level).
 
I think it's interesting that Thorstein Veblen had his own heterodox branch of economics around the same time as Marx, but his work mostly ended up being absorbed into orthodoxy, but generally overlooked (nobody really cares much about positional advantage in consumption goods).

I've thought before about the idea of a scenario where Veblen went much further with his conspicuous consumption and leisure ideas and started a major world movement for a sort of secular asceticism (egalitarianism by drawing down consumption to a lower level instead of raising it to a higher level).
His ideas were pretty influential among adherents of Technocracy in the 30s and to this day survive among modern day technocrats from random futurist types to the World Economic Forum.
 
If Vikings colonized North America, the white colonizers would discover that Indigenous Americans have a light, pale brown complexion because of Norse DNA. Due to colorism and racism, Indigenous genocide would still happen (and no immunity to euro diseases).

Vikings were cucks and would totally assimilate into Indigenous cultures. If Vikings stayed and colonized America, America would still be the exact same place.

Vikings would just assimilate into whatever country they would immigrate to.

Source: Is a Scandi Amerimutt and is studying my ethnic background and history in my spare time. The Vikings are just so cool.
 
If Vikings colonized North America, the white colonizers would discover that Indigenous Americans have a light, pale brown complexion because of Norse DNA. Due to colorism and racism, Indigenous genocide would still happen (and no immunity to euro diseases).

Vikings were cucks and would totally assimilate into Indigenous cultures. If Vikings stayed and colonized America, America would still be the exact same place.

Vikings would just assimilate into whatever country they would immigrate to.

Source: Is a Scandi Amerimutt and is studying my ethnic background and history in my spare time. The Vikings are just so cool.
The vikings were so violent against the newfoundland natives that when white people arrived on those shores again the Beothuk fled inland and starved into extinction instead of facing white people again.
 
If Vikings colonized North America, the white colonizers would discover that Indigenous Americans have a light, pale brown complexion because of Norse DNA. Due to colorism and racism, Indigenous genocide would still happen (and no immunity to euro diseases).

Vikings were cucks and would totally assimilate into Indigenous cultures. If Vikings stayed and colonized America, America would still be the exact same place.

Vikings would just assimilate into whatever country they would immigrate to.

Source: Is a Scandi Amerimutt and is studying my ethnic background and history in my spare time. The Vikings are just so cool.
Even if the natives were tall blonde blue eyed hyperboreans and stayed at the same general tech "level", the European powers still would've annihilated the natives, because they had something the euros wanted and they couldn't resist them taking it. To quote Thucydides, "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must".
 
If Vikings colonized North America, the white colonizers would discover that Indigenous Americans have a light, pale brown complexion because of Norse DNA. Due to colorism and racism, Indigenous genocide would still happen (and no immunity to euro diseases).

Vikings were cucks and would totally assimilate into Indigenous cultures. If Vikings stayed and colonized America, America would still be the exact same place.

Vikings would just assimilate into whatever country they would immigrate to.

Source: Is a Scandi Amerimutt and is studying my ethnic background and history in my spare time. The Vikings are just so cool.
Have you heard of that tribe of Plains Nomads, I think Mandan, that has a high incidence of blonde hair and blue eyes? There's some thinking that a portion of Vinlanders wound up assimilating and joining them.


Cecil Rhodes should be a goofy villain in some alternate history or conspiracy history (I don't know the proper term for it, things like Assassin's Creed or Dan Brown that aren't alternate history as such but they tell you about the secret conspiracy war going on), the dude was a complete weirdo. Literal Paradox map-painting gamer mentality, conquered countries with ease but was terrified of women, and wanted to seed pro-British secret societies around the world to conspire to undermine their countries and annex them into the Empire. Also was complete trash.
 
The vikings were so violent against the newfoundland natives that when white people arrived on those shores again the Beothuk fled inland and starved into extinction instead of facing white people again.
>be native and just wanna fish
>hear stories about how a long long time ago some really pale people showed up and started raping and killing
>go fishing and see really pale people
>SHIEET.jpg
>pale people rape mother and sister
>pale people take all your fish
>pale people chase you away with shiny cutlass so no going fishing anymore
>starve to death
Have you heard of that tribe of Plains Nomads, I think Mandan, that has a high incidence of blonde hair and blue eyes? There's some thinking that a portion of Vinlanders wound up assimilating and joining them.
The Mandan were farmers who got their shit pushed in by the Sioux. They also weren't descended from Vinlanders (or Celts) like some white people said, assume any white-looking Indian was the result of a French/English trapper finding a local wife.
 
Has anyone here read through "Man in the High Castle"? Is the book any better than the series because the series is so bad i really want to know if amazon went crazy or if the book was just as shit.
 
Has anyone here read through "Man in the High Castle"? Is the book any better than the series because the series is so bad i really want to know if amazon went crazy or if the book was just as shit.
Its very spiritual and steeped in eastern mysticism, its a good book don't get me wrong but it is weird and sits very adjacent to the what the book is ostensibly about.
Or to put it another Philip Dick was sucking way to much lsd and fried his brain and wrote an incoherent mess of a book that very deliberately ignores the best part of the book.
Either or really.
 
Has anyone here read through "Man in the High Castle"? Is the book any better than the series because the series is so bad i really want to know if amazon went crazy or if the book was just as shit.
The book is a book only in the technical sense of being words on paper. There's a bunch of incidents in this alternate world, quite a few of them steeped in mystical bullshit and then you come to the last page and wonder where the story was. The titular Man is a complete shaggy dog story: you run into him, turns out he abandoned his High Castle because he got bored.

If you want a comparison, think Confederacy of Dunces, but set in an alternate America where the Axis won, and missing the last third of the story.
 
I wrote this very stupid low-effort timeline based on a line from GTA San Andreas where Ryder says "It's like World War 8!". An alternate version of the years 1945-1992 where the world war count reaches 8.

# WWIII - 1949-1951 - NATO and allies vs. Warsaw Pact, PRC and allies. Theaters: Germany, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Finland, China, Korea. Results: Stalemate in Europe, Chinese Communist victory in Asia, end of German occupation, reunification and permanent demilitarization of Germany, anti-communist victory in Finland, PRC takes mainland China and ROC flees to Taiwan, communist unification of Korea. WMD Use: Yes, tactical nuclear weapons used in Europe against troop concentrations, bases, and ships by both NATO and WP, with NATO believed to have used them first. Some use of chemical weapons esp. in Korea and China, again by both sides. Casualties: ~12 million.

An early, largely inconclusive skirmish between the superpowers, the Third World War did little to solve the real animosity between the rival blocs, merely redrawing in blood and atomic fire the lines between them. The small size of the stockpiles, especially the Soviet stockpile, limited the possibility of full global nuclear war... this time.


# WWIV - 1958-1962 - British Commonwealth, French Union, Netherlands, Portugal, and Israel vs. Arab Coalition and various anti-colonial movements. Theaters: Caribbean, Algeria, Levant, Kenya, Angola, Mozambique, Malaya, Indonesia. Results: British, French, and Dutch empires dissolve, Israel survives, United Arab Republic created by Iraq, Syria, Eqypt, Libya, and North Yemen. WMD Use: No. Casualties: ~5 million.

An anti-colonial conflict characterized by guerrilla fighting, urban terrorism, and massacres rather than pitched battles of armies, the Fourth World War had the lowest death toll of all the World Wars thus far. It saw the end of European colonial empires as a major player on the world stage, with the former imperial hegemons now becoming junior partners in NATO.


# WWV - 1967-1975 - "the Big One" - NATO and allies vs. Warsaw Pact, PRC and allies. Theaters: Europe, Middle East (Israel, Iran, and Saudi Arabia vs. UAR), Subcontinental (Pakistan vs. India and Bangladeshi independence movement), Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hainan. Result: stalemate in Europe, anti-communist victory in East Asia and liberation of Korea, Hainan and Hong Kong, defeat and dissolution of the UAR, independence of Bangladesh from Pakistan, superpowers vacate Europe and dissolve NATO and Warsaw Pact alliances, European Federation formed. WMD Use: no nuclear weapons, some use of chemical weapons in both Europe and East Asia. Casualties: ~60-70 million.

A large conventional war between the rival blocs, the Fifth World War was characterized by high nuclear discipline in the shadow of mutually assured destruction now that both sides had huge stockpiles of warheads. The conventional fighting was bad enough to make WWV comparable to, although not larger than, WWII.


# WWVI - October 7-13, 1983 - "the Hot One" - USA vs. USSR. Theaters: USA and USSR airspace, lower outer space. Result: nuclear exchange leading to the destruction of San Francisco, New York City, Washington D.C., Moscow, Leningrad, and Vladivostok, collapse of the Soviet Union, political crisis and temporary martial law in USA, significant but not catastrophic fallout release, three years of abnormally cold weather and famine, lower global temperatures and food output for decades after. WMD Use: exchange of about 215 Soviet and 57 American warheads, mostly on ICBMs exchanged across the North Pole, and some submarine launched smaller missiles. Casualties: ~100-150 million

The Sixth World War saw the world's nuclear nightmares come true. A false positive at Soviet missile defense led the USSR to strike first in the belief it was retaliating. American interception capability proved better than expected with a 91% success rate, however large numbers of warheads overwhelmed certain cities. American response was relatively light in terms of the number and size of the warheads, mostly in order to preserve the global biosphere as much as possible. Still, factoring in the casualties of radiation, famine, disease, and lawlessness ensuing from even this limited exchange, the casualties are horrific.


# WWVII - 1986-1989 - European Federation and allies vs. People's Republic of China and allies vs. Popular Salvation Front. Theaters: former USSR, Latin America, North and East Africa, East Asia. Results: establishment of numerous new post-Soviet states under either European or Chinese influence, collapse of hyper-communist PSF regimes in Nepal, Cambodia, and Peru, partition of Algeria between Morocco, Azawad and Libya, fall of the Ethiopian Empire. WMD use: no nuclear weapons, use of banned chemical WMD both by and against the hyper-communists, claimed use of bioweapons against Ethiopia (disputed). Casualties: ~30-40 million.

The Seventh World War saw new ascendant powers, Europe and China, moving to fill the power vacuum after the fall of one superpower and the wounding of another. It reset the world map, but once again into two competing blocs, one liberal-democratic and one nominally communist and authoritarian. However, China had also undergone reforms and was now at odds with three of its ultra-Maoist rogue satellites. Their Popular Salvation Front is put down in the course of the war.


# WWVIII - 1992 - Grove Street Families and Aztecas vs. Ballas and Vagos. Theaters: primarily in Los Santos, San Andreas, with related fighting in San Fierro and Las Venturas, and with links to conflicts in Russia, Mexico and elsewhere. Results: Grove Street victory, dismantling of the Loco Syndicate, reduction in the crack epidemic in Los Santos, personal reunion between Carl Johnson and his brother Sweet. WMD use: none. Casualties: 600-700 estimated homicides directly related to the gang wars, bringing Los Santos to a record-breaking total of 947 homicides for 1992.

The Eighth World War, with its triple-digit casualties and its relatively tenuous connections to global conflicts of the time, is sometimes disputed as a real world war. But come on man, shit was crazy, there was a drive-by in the drive-thru, CJ burned a field of weed with a flamethrower then shot down a police helicopter with a rocket launcher while he was high, he later jumped off the summit of Mt. Chiliad on a BMX and survived, it was sick.
 
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Finally found a mirror of the trove all the gurps alternate earth stuff was top notch in both unusual divergences and interesting settings Midgard is a pretty based one as well.
GURPS is full of great parallel-world stuff. In Infinite Worlds you have everything from perfectly reasonable alt-history, to the fantasy, to the United States of Lizardia. I also find it endlessly amusing that fate conspired to construct an honest to god "Sherlock vs Moriarty" situation between Infinty and Centrum, where both sides have to play along for bigger reasons.
 
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GURPS is full of great parallel-world stuff. In Infinite Worlds you have everything from perfectly reasonable alt-history, to the fantasy, to the United States of Lizardia. I also find it endlessly amusing that fate conspired to construct an honest to god "Sherlock vs Moriarty" situation between Infinty and Centrum, where both sides have to play along for bigger reasons.
As I said before I've always wanted to run an Aeolus aerial campaign but that's not going to happen for a few years :(
 
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Dunno if this has been posted here before, but I’ve always wondered what would’ve happened if the Flight to Varennes had been successful and the French Royal Family had escaped. Granted the Revolution would probably still go down one way or another, but I find it insane at just how close they were to the border before they were caught. It was just that everything that could go wrong did go wrong; roadblocks, delays, at one point the guards who were assigned to escort them across the border arrived too early and ended up leaving too soon, etc.

Regardless of what you think of the French Royal Family, I can’t help but feel bad for them. By all the historical accounts Ive watched and read, Louis and Marie weren’t great rulers….but they weren’t bad people either. Louis genuinely tried to be a good king, but his weak will combined with the fact that the French Aristocratic system of the time was more or less crumbling apart was a recipe for disaster. Yes, Marie was known to be frivolous in her youth, but she apparently wisened up as she grew older and also genuinely tried to help.

Unfortunately though, by that point it was too late. From the moment it was created, the whole concept of Versailles and it’s shaping of the aristocracy was doomed to fail. It shielded the Royalty and nobility from the reality of the world around them and completely fucked over the regular, every day people of France. It was only a matter of time before everything blew up in everyone’s faces.

I especially feel bad for everyone who was dragged into the crossfires of the revolution, mainly those who were just trying to live their lives.

The way the “revolutionaries“ treated Louis Charles (Louis 16th’s son) is still one of the most sickening and heartbreaking things I’ve ever read. They ripped him away from his family, gave him to some random couple who proceeded to abuse him, forced him to testify against his own mother in a kangaroo court on false claims, and once they were done with him, threw him into a prison cell and left him to rot away in his own waste. He died in prison from tuberculosis at the age of 10 years old.
 
Dunno if this has been posted here before, but I’ve always wondered what would’ve happened if the Flight to Varennes had been successful and the French Royal Family had escaped. Granted the Revolution would probably still go down one way or another, but I find it insane at just how close they were to the border before they were caught. It was just that everything that could go wrong did go wrong; roadblocks, delays, at one point the guards who were assigned to escort them across the border arrived too early and ended up leaving too soon, etc.

Regardless of what you think of the French Royal Family, I can’t help but feel bad for them. By all the historical accounts Ive watched and read, Louis and Marie weren’t great rulers….but they weren’t bad people either. Louis genuinely tried to be a good king, but his weak will combined with the fact that the French Aristocratic system of the time was more or less crumbling apart was a recipe for disaster. Yes, Marie was known to be frivolous in her youth, but she apparently wisened up as she grew older and also genuinely tried to help.

Unfortunately though, by that point it was too late. From the moment it was created, the whole concept of Versailles and it’s shaping of the aristocracy was doomed to fail. It shielded the Royalty and nobility from the reality of the world around them and completely fucked over the regular, every day people of France. It was only a matter of time before everything blew up in everyone’s faces.

I especially feel bad for everyone who was dragged into the crossfires of the revolution, mainly those who were just trying to live their lives.

The way the “revolutionaries“ treated Louis Charles (Louis 16th’s son) is still one of the most sickening and heartbreaking things I’ve ever read. They ripped him away from his family, gave him to some random couple who proceeded to abuse him, forced him to testify against his own mother in a kangaroo court on false claims, and once they were done with him, threw him into a prison cell and left him to rot away in his own waste. He died in prison from tuberculosis at the age of 10 years old.
There's no specific real life suggestion for this, but I like the idea of Louisiana becoming a French monarchy-in-exile state analogous to Taiwan's situation. (I also like the idea of Brazil remaining the senior partner over Portugal, and other European monarchies relocating to the Americas.)



I had no clue until today that Sybil Gerard and Charles Egremont from The Difference Engine is a reference to a Disraeli novel.
 
Bros, what if the Zanj Rebellion had won?
The Zanj Rebellion was history's largest slave revolt, which you never hear about because it involved Muslims and Africans. Abbasid Iraq was big in the buck-breaking business running sugar plantations, huge Black population, but their slaves from the Zanzibar Coast were all gelded, which is why it didn't leave an impact on their demographics today. Eventually the Zanj (Blacks) rose in a massive revolt that threw the Abbasids out for over a decade and even managed to establish a navy.

One of the novelties of this scenario is that the Zanj would have been an ethnic group with no long-term ability to replace themselves. What do they do? Voluntarily repatriate? Find ways to import countrymen (voluntarily or involuntarily) to succeed them? Establish a dynasty that replaces itself with local Iraqis as they die of old age?
 
Bros, what if the Zanj Rebellion had won?
The Zanj Rebellion was history's largest slave revolt, which you never hear about because it involved Muslims and Africans. Abbasid Iraq was big in the buck-breaking business running sugar plantations, huge Black population, but their slaves from the Zanzibar Coast were all gelded, which is why it didn't leave an impact on their demographics today. Eventually the Zanj (Blacks) rose in a massive revolt that threw the Abbasids out for over a decade and even managed to establish a navy.

One of the novelties of this scenario is that the Zanj would have been an ethnic group with no long-term ability to replace themselves. What do they do? Voluntarily repatriate? Find ways to import countrymen (voluntarily or involuntarily) to succeed them? Establish a dynasty that replaces itself with local Iraqis as they die of old age?
Another one in roughly the same geographic area, what if the 10000 stayed in Mesopotamia after Cyrus died?
 
A lot of people would think it'd change the world a ton and no doubt it would, but a USA just avoiding the Revolution and staying a British dominion I think would end up pretty broad-strokes similar to real life and in turn affect the world the same way Remembering the Thirteen Colonies were always autonomous and fought to stay that way, let's say a miracle happens and the Olive Branch Petition is accepted.

Now compare some broad strokes similarities in real life that happened between the independent USA and still-British Canada: they got constitutional developments (1789 Constitution and 1791's Canada Act), expanded westward from then to about the 1840s territorially, got dragged into the Napoleonic Wars in the 1810s, had governmental crisises in the 1830s (Nullification Act and Canadian Rebellions), adventurism and provincial governmental changes in the late 1840s to early 1850s (Mexican War and Crimean War, Compromise of 1850 and responsible government starting up in the Maritimes), federal supremacy and crushing natives in the 1860s (Union winning in the Civil War and Confederation, Great Sioux War/Indian Wars and Red River Rebellion), first non-North American wars in 1898 (Spanish American War and Boer War), then entering the world wars and settling into world cultural supremacy from the middle 20th century to now.

We can pretty easily extrapolate that and merge these parallels into a full Dominion of (North) America's history - Canada formally included in this Dominion BTW - with dominion status happening in the late 1780s-early 1790s or so, taking over most of North America (Louisiana, Florida, Texas, maybe even pushing west to the Pacific already) in the Napoleonic Wars with a distracted France and Spain, moving west to the Pacific by the 1840s tops and crushing the last powerful native tribes by the 1860s, some local rebellions post-Napoleon if not a huge one/Civil War over slavery and local gentry in the 1830s (combining the Empire's slavery ban in 1833, Canadian Rebellions, the Nullification Act), likely a Balfour/Westminster-style full independence in the 1840s by the time of real-life Canadian self-government and American western organization... but still helping Mother Britain out in both imperial adventures (Boers, eh) and then the world wars till it becomes the big boy amongst Anglos. A republican America already throws its weight around the world, one that still had the British king as head of state or parliamentary government certainly wouldn't be adverse to do so even if it had a 'nice', gradual split up from Britain.
 
I can't figure out why so many AH.com users love trying to make dumb pop culture alternate histories (I say try because a lot never go far, for good reason). You have thousands of topics you can pick from, so why do you devote your time and effort to something like this?

Screenshot_20230117-170719_Chrome.jpg
 
I can't figure out why so many AH.com users love trying to make dumb pop culture alternate histories (I say try because a lot never go far, for good reason). You have thousands of topics you can pick from, so why do you devote your time and effort to something like this?

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Ah, AH.com. A site that is the shining example of 'first site takes everything over to the detriment of variety'. God help you if you don't suckle off the globohomo or put a million warnings in front of a a timeline.

I'd be a filthy liar if I didn't say it still didn't have good timelines or ideas - the Misia/massive native North American civilization is a truly fantastic idea, the Arrogance and Empire series is well-written despite the USA-wanking, and of course I'll stick to the very bitter end of Look to the West as the series that got me to join the site sixteen years ago when I discovered it just as it began. But it's amazing how a cross of political correctness and demands for 'plausibility' killed off a lot of the base creativity, which I think partly explains it. That's for actual history as well, as for pop culture in specific.... well, it's all most of these people have or know in their lives and so the only thing they innately know in terms of culture.
 
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